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Dolphins announce they will be staying inside for anthem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Puka-head, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Absolutely not. Flloyd may have been the match that lit the fire but the wood and kindling have been piling up for decades. There would sadly have been another face and another name. We know this because there are so many other faces and so many other names. This one had video, that's all.
     
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  2. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Check out the Harvard study I posted in post 120. Everyone in this thread should check it out.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I mean, if that is something they are trained to do, and it's part of their approved way of handling it, then what did Chauvin do wrong? Legally speaking. I don't think they should train officers to restrain by kneeling on their neck, but they do. If the coroner is saying he didn't die from asphyxiation, and there is no bruising on his neck, and Chauvin was following the department training, then how are we saying it was police brutality? The coroner saidc that if they had simply found Floyd on the street, it would be no question a drug death. So, were we all played by being shown that video, with no context of knowing these things that I just said?

    I just don't see how a guy dying from a drug overdose while police were following training protocol equals police brutality.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Are they comparing to arrests in the same areas? I mean, are they comparing minority arrests in like Boston to white arrests in Montague? There will be a difference. Or are they comparing white arrests to minority arrests in Boston? Stats never tell the whole story. Are they simply looking at overall stats with zero regard to where the suspects are being arrested?
     
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1) A 9-minute leg choke is not proper procedure in any US police department.
    2) Once he became unresponsive, it was all four of those officer's jobs to provide medical aid.

    Like I said earlier, maybe #1 didn't kill him...but it's hard to debate #2 when you have three officers hovering over you while you're dying. Both #1 and #2 are unlawful and grossly neglect- there's just no way around that.

    It could be that this is not ruled a murder, but that officer's career is over and he will likely go to jail on manslaughter or some type of neglect charge. Following the oath of duty is a huge deal for officers and it comes with very heavy consequences when it's broken.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There is a massive difference between neglect and murder.

    Can you state with 100% certainty that Chauvin violated policy? Honest question. Up until like two weeks ago I was arguing that putting a knee on a suspect's neck was obviously going outside of his training.
     
  7. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    It was a study of Massachusetts, not Boston. Boston is mentioned but those statistics are statewide from what I read.
     
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  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Right, that's kinda what I figured. But looking at stats from urban areas, which are higher crime rates than rural areas, and are often higher density of minorities than rural areas, isn't really a fair comparison, is it? Like cops in Brockton are dealing with different crime and criminals than cops in Montague. What police experience is going to affect how they do their jobs. So, I don't necessarily see the value in comparing crimes and arrests that occur in vastly different areas. Know what I mean?

    Just like with the Tannehill arguments, there are a ton of variables at work for why the statistics are how they are. It's not a clear cut case that the system is racist.
     
  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can state with 99% certainty that he violated policy either at the local or state level...my 1% doubt is that they could have trained him in the academy as an "approved move in certain situations", but the academy is not going to call it a standard procedure. Because here's what happens- if the police force said they approved that and it gets proven illegal, then every inmate in the state that's been arrested in the past 20 years is filing for a retrial and/or filing lawsuits saying that it happened to them as well. There's a ZERO PERCENT chance this falls back on the academy because it creates complete chaos...it's much easier to pin it on the "rogue cop".

    This article from a few months ago might help- Fox Memphis

    It says that while "neck restraints" are legal, what Chauvin did was never taught at the academy. Most officers would think of a neck restraint as a headlock...which DOES NOT mean choke hold (like I mentioned in my personal experiences earlier). The only time that wouldn't apply is when someone's coming at you with lethal force...like with a knife or a crowbar. Then you can do whatever you have to do in order to protect yourself. However, once the threat has passed, you have to release immediately. I don't think any of those criteria were met even if they do somehow call the move "legal".

    There is a huge difference between the neglect and murder, of course, but I think he's going to be found guilty of one or the other (or a lesser homicide charge like manslaughter). If he's found innocent on all counts, good gosh, the previous riots are going to look tame compared to what follows.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    For manslaughter, they'd have to prove that Chauvin's actions contributed to his death, right? So if there was no bruising on his neck, and they say it wasn't asphyxiation, but it was the drugs in his system that killed him, could they get him on manslaughter? And, if the evidence ends up showing it was the drugs, and people riot, that's kinda crazy. But that's what I meant earlier, that people came to conclusions based on the video, without having all the other facts, and now we can't unring that bell. Floyd is a major case in this movement against police brutality, and while Chauvin definitely has a past history of this, this case might not actually be what we were presented, and it's going to be messy now.
     
  11. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  12. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    You're really trying to hard to defend the undefendable, the cop was a major reason this man is dead, but let's let him walk.
     
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  13. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Both the official and the private autopsies concluded Floyd's death was a "homicide". There is some discussion of the details. Bottom line, he was killed.

    Arguing the details of this particular case and trying to take away from the issue by blaming Floyd for his death is...I don't even know what it is. Irrelevant? Disingenuous? Obtuse? Incredulous? How bout just wrong. This is one case out of thousands over decades. Trying to say the whole movement is invalid because Floyd was high when he was killed by a police officer? We can do better.

    And it's a distraction from the discussion of what the Dolphins, the NFL, and Americans across the country are DOING about it. There really is no denying the issue. People trying to deny the issue are the ones who are ok with people of color being treated differently by law enforcement seems to me.

    I'm a fat old white dude, I have no concept of what it's like to worry about being pulled over for "driving while black, or brown". But I have experienced racism while living in the Pacific Islands, Hawaii and others where white people are a minority and are treated differently. Not to this extent, but it's there. I learned enough to know (I did already) that racism is the HIGHEST form of ignorance there is and when matched with it's brother intolerance becomes evil in a blink.

    So the curtain has been pulled back, again. Are we just going to fight to get the curtain closed so we don't have to look at the ugliest side of our culture, or are we going to work for the change our fellow human's have been fighting for the last 100 years?
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Not at all what I'm saying. But this is why I said earlier it's really hard to even have a conversation. If you even try to talk about the facts that go against the narrative, people act like you want police brutality to continue.
     
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Manslaugher simply needs the officer to have a contributing factor in the death, which I think they can prove easily (by saying he didn't provide aid to someone dying right in front of him). Murder would mean that he straight-up killed him.

    I'm honestly surprised that they're not pursuing manslaughter charges on all four officers since they clearly messed up. States also have different variations of a "derelection of duty" types of charges that basically say that you were grossly negligent while wearing the badge...I don't know if that state has it or not, but that would be an obvious conviction if they pursued it.

    I don't think Chauvin meant to kill him, but that's never really a factor in murder/manslaughter trials anyway. If your actions led to the outcome, then you're guilty.
     
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  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, all I'm saying is, this case rose to prominence because it was supposed to show police executing a man in the street. Like I said, up until a couple weeks ago, I was right there with you. But now the information is painting a different story. This case does not seem to be a case where police killed a man. I mean, ingesting a lethal does of fentanyl changes things, as far as the case goes. It's not that this was a completely healthy male who was killed.

    I'm more saying I've backed off my thoughts on this case and would like to see more evidence now. I also already stated, Chauvin was clearly a problem, he's had other issues. I just wonder what happens if it turns out that the drugs were more responsible for his death than Chauvin.
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    "The autopsy report from Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office concludes the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." That conclusion, death due to heart failure, differs from the one reached by an independent examiner hired by the Floyd family; that report listed the cause of death as "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...eorge-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

    I could see manslaughter, but do you think people will accept that?
     
  18. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    If the policy is to kneel on someone's neck for an extended period of time, anyone who follows that policy is a disgusting animal. I dont care if he acted within policy, what policy you choose to follow speaks volumes about a person.

    Was it okay for a citizen to kill a Jew in nazi Germany? Do you just go "well that was the policy"

    No, you call that person nazi scum.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's a such a strawman. I never said it was right to have that policy, or anything about the morality of it. I merely referenced the legality of it. Can't convict someone of something if it wasn't a crime to do it.
     
  20. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I just went back and watched the video again. From the owner on down, they ARE the change they want to see. No BS, just doing the work.

    I gotta tell you, I've never been prouder to be a fan of the Miami Dolphins than I am today.
     
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  21. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    In terms of positive change there's going to have to be some very wise and thorough consideration about the actual nature of the problem. There's also going to have to be a move away from the knee-jerk social media justice that is only getting worse.

    As much as social media can get information out quickly that information can be bad, as well as good, and in terms of actual justice and real progress it's often counter-productive.

    The problem with justice, as far as we can make it work well, is that it's a system. Yes, it can be a corrupt system and yes it can need reform, but the only way society will work is if there is rule of law. Mob rule isn't anything America (or anywhere else) wants to see. Having a video go viral and everyone opining on an issue before all the information in is a real problem, it can actually produce injustice rather than the other way around. To fix a problem you need a correct analysis. People need to work together more to achieve that, and not 'tear the system down'. So the question becomes, how can everyone work towards improving that? Educating and sharing about important values? Challenging the media that loves inflammatory content? Promoting and supporting good initiatives and protests and other such things? I'm not sure what's the most effective, but there has to be a move away from the internet/mob/riot rule approach. It hurts the innocent and can impede the conviction of the guilty, and prevent real change.

    Along with that, there has to be a focus to move away from incorrect assumptions and claims and an increased desire for accuracy and good work. For example, there is a lot of talk about a racism even before there's any indication of it, and even when no evidence of it has been found. That's such an incredibly important consideration. Why? What use would it be to crack down on racism in the police if the actual issue were trigger happy or fearful officers, or perhaps a devaluing of the lives of criminals? It will waste resources, exhaust people who will stop listening to complaints, and ultimately won't make anything better.

    The conversation has to try to improve things along these lines.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  22. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    This is a fantastic post.
     
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  23. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Le Bron you silence is defending. You were willing to cancel games immediately. But when called out where are you now?

    This relates exactly to what the Dolphins video said. If we get involved we’re going to be used by both sides.

    interesting.
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Let me share a quick firsthand prison story- and you guys get to play the role of me to explain what the right/wrong move was as an officer.

    It's a normal day in the prison kitchen. We had just finished serving breakfast at 6:30 AM and it's coming up on shift change for the officers, which means I'm in the cafeteria alone. There are about 20 inmates with me- around 5 white, 8 black, 5 Hispanic and 3 Asian. I've worked with most of these inmates for a period of time and there's no real troublemakers.

    I went into my little bulletproof cubicle office to put away the serving tools (everything metal is HIGHLY inventoried at all times) and I notice that the Hispanics who had all been seated at a table laughing just a moment ago were all staring towards me silently. In prison, you learn to watch people's eyes more than their actions because it will tell you what's going on....they were intently watching me because something was about to happen. As I stood up, one of them whistled loudly, which was warning someone else I was about to come out of the office. This could be something innocent like an inmate is smoking a cigarette on the loading docks or trying to steal vegetables from the prep table, or it could be something major like a planned assault.

    Now my eyes are darting around the kitchen, still inside my completely secure office...to see what everyone else is looking at. And everyone but one young white kid who's washing dishes is focused on me.

    Because they knew that I knew something was about to happen, we got the Spanish guy whistling and folks went back to their normal routines. But as soon as I come out of the office, one of the other Spanish dudes beelines towards me asking for my help back on the loading docks. There's nothing out there that needs my attention, mind you...it's just a distraction technique to get me away from the kitchen for 30 seconds.

    By the way, I'm naming white, spanish, black, etc. here because everyone teams up in jails- you have to have others that have your back. You might not believe in racism but every single inmate considered it a fact of life, it's generally every race for himself when crap hit the fan. So I know that if everybody seems to be in on what's going on in there but me, it's likely to be a fairly big deal. Maybe someone is trying to steal something big like a bottle of pancake syrup...you can make hooch from that and have your whole cell block drunk as skunks.

    I tell the Spanish guy that I didn't have time to go outside, and his dumb protesting confirms that there's a problem. I can't call up front for police help though because what am I going to say, the inmates look suspicious? LOL. So I move towards the cooks in the middle of the kitchen since it's the best vantage point, but still close to that office where I'm secure and can call for help.

    A few minutes pass and I get busy with the cooks going over the menu for lunch and getting ingredients from the coolers, the stock room, etc. I figure that an officer would be in there in a few minutes since the shifts had just changed, so I didn't think much of the earlier incident. But then I heard screaming and instantly knew how badly I messed up...not by policy, per se, but just as a person who's supposed to be protecting everyone in there from each other.

    I rush out the stock room door and there's two black inmates trying to block my path- they weren't bold enough to put their hands on me (an automatic assault charge that carries up to 5 years), but they were loud insisting that I shouldn't go out there. I pushed past them as I rushed to see what happened, which means my back is now to them and I'm 100% alone. I also had a black inmate in the stock room so that's three behind me...which breaks the first rule of working in prisons- never turn your back on an inmate.

    I then see the white inmate who was washing dishes is being stabbed by a Spanish inmate, with several other spanish/whites trading blows and the blacks basically playing lookout. The Asian guys were nowhere to be seen...I think they ran back to their cells to be honest.

    Now it's time for you to play officer.

    Option #1 is to go for the office/phone. My secure office is about 12 steps away and proper procedure would be for me to escape 1st to get help, then worry about the problem. The issue is that I'd have to go straight thru the fighting and risk getting stabbed/attacked.

    Option #2 is to run thru the black guys I just passed, out the back dock area, then all the way around the building and into the front office. It would take me 40 seconds minimum and probably another 30-45 seconds to get help to the cafeteria, at which point the white dishwasher would be dead.

    Option # 3 is to play the hero, charge head-first into a 15 man brawl and take my chances. Maybe I can get the dishwasher into the office and save his life, but if something goes wrong then I can be dead as well without anyone knowing. Option 3 is suicide.

    Option #4 would be similar to # 3, there's a panic button on the far side of the kitchen but I'd have to go thru (or around) a lot of angry people to get there. This attack tells me that the dishwasher did something really against "inmate code" to have people attack him in the open like that.

    Option #4.1 is what I chose to do, which was order the three black guys into the storeroom so I could lock them in. That took four steps total and it was done. I then circled the room going in a roundabout way for that panic button, at which point two hispanics stepped in my path and put their hands on me. I defended myself with a wrist lock and a judo throw on the 1st guy...the 2nd instantly backed up. And now I'm surrounded without even realizing how stupid I was...I stopped watching the room because I was so focused on that panic button and the inmates in front of me.

    I take a few quick steps and hit the button, and an alarm quickly sounds throughout the compound. Within a few seconds I hear "First responders to the cafeteria" over the PA system....but I still have 20-30 seconds minimum before help arrives.

    Now it's time for you to play officer again.

    Option #1 is to follow procedure and order the inmates on the ground as I back up from the situation. The only problem is that I'm now in a corner with nowhere to go unless I jump over the 5 foot serving line and run for my life. That would be showing fear though and in that moment, it's a very dangerous option.

    Option #2 would be to attack. Dept of Corrections has a +1 rule in self defense, which means I can defend myself at the level of an inmates attack +1 more level. For instance, if he comes with fists, I can use a baton or anything non-lethal (I don't have a baton in this instance though). If he comes at me with a metal stirrer for the food or any type of weapon, then I can respond +1...which would be up to lethal force. I have no weapons on me though- the best I could do would be to grab a stainless steel pot (offense), large baking sheet (defense) or a 60 pound steel cauldron (no idea what you'd do with this one).

    Option #3 would be to try and talk my way out of the situation while re-circling the room one way or the other...towards the office or a door. Inmates have adrenaline pumping though and in fight/flight mode, so any option is incredibly dangerous.

    Option #4 would be to stand my ground, grab that big baking sheet as a shield and order the inmates to the ground...which is what I did at first. However, to my surprise the remaining black inmate and two white inmates stepped up to protect me. The Calvary arrived, the kitchen was gassed and everyone quickly hit the ground. I was at the furthest possible point from an outside door so I literally had to crawl while gagging for air....that stuff is freakin' terrible.

    The reason I wrote all this out and made it like a "choose your own adventure" is because I didn't just make one choice to cause the eventual outcome...I made dozens of choices. I mean, I never had to leave that office at all when I saw people looking around suspiciously; I could have sat my butt in a chair and waited until an officer arrived off the shift change. Before starting my shift that day, I chose not to check out pepper spray or a baton because I have a good relationship with my inmates...they tried to steer me from danger three different times in a five minute span. Yet if one of them told me that someone was about to be attacked, they would have been the one stabbed instead...not the white dishwasher. That's just how it goes in jail.

    I shared all of that to say this- what Chauvin and other officers did in the Floyd case was 100% wrong (all 4 of them), but this isn't a black and white story. They have a combative individual, a crowd of bystanders screaming at them, people filming, people issuing threats, etc. Like in my story, those officers were thinking a mile a minute on what to do, how to protect themselves, how to get the crowd to comply, etc.

    In fact, you hear in the video that the officer standing in front of the crowd is actively ordering them to back off...and the three officers on the ground are all glancing towards the sidewalk. It is a crime to interfere with a police arrest or investigation, so I guarantee you that the two officers on the ground were debating whether to keep helping to restrain the suspect or to approach the crowd. IN ANY POLICE SITUATION, bystanders telling police that they know the law, that they can't do that, etc. is rapidly escalating the situation and makes use of force much more probable.

    I can't help but wonder...if all those people weren't out there screaming and distracting officers, would Floyd have been on the ground for nine minutes? He was held there because of the crowd....getting him up put the officers in a vulnerable position and the safest thing to do was stay where they were. That lesson is just as important as reforming police brutality- people need to stop going out of their way to antagonize officers and place them in even more stressful situations. There's just no way to de-escalate with people screaming and ignoring local laws (like, follow all officer's lawful commands). I mean, in what other instance in life would you see someone with a gun who has authority over you and start yelling at them? Does that make any sense at all?

    The lawful command that day was issued over two dozen times- "Back up and let us do our jobs."

    Again, I am not presenting any excuses for the officers here; I do believe it was 2nd degree murder and three more counts of manslaughter, accessory to 2nd degree murder, or whatever that state calls those charges. I did want you folks to see, however, that there were plenty of moments before it got to that point for different outcomes...there were dozens of opportunities for everyone there to do better. This absolutely is not black and white though- nobody there did the right thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  25. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Thanks for sharing. That is another side of this too, and one that gets lots in the viral video courtroom. Since the most recent cases and riots I've had a few videos come across my feeds that clearly indicate why a police officer might do anything with his hand on his gun etc. However, even if officers always acted according to procedure, the would still be a question about reviewing that procedure and where needed to push for procedure to be changed and/or for people to be better educated about the job of police officers.

    With all of this, too, race hasn't even entered into the conversation and shouldn't unless it's a factor, and if it is, it needs dealing with swiftly and strongly. Clearly there are black people (and others) who are afraid of the police. That's essentially what the majority of this issue is about. So another question is what portion of the fear is due to genuine police action and what portion is due to fear-mongering or other factors?

    My point is that if progress is going to be made, we need as much clarity and understanding as possible and we need to work together to resolve this in a fair, just and orderly way, because that's they only way to effect lasting change and build something that will stand the test of time.
     
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  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Thanks for sharing that. I definitely agree, I think that fear causes many of these situations where officers end up using deadly force. Knowing the legal system is very precise in it's meanings, do you really believe that they can convict on 2nd degree murder? I guess that is more what I've been trying to discuss. In a volatile, rapidly changing situation, will they be able to prove that Chauvin acted with reckless disregard for human life? I just don't know. Minnesota trains knee on neck restraints.

    https://www.kare11.com/mobile/artic...floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496
     
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  27. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Stop the video at 40 seconds. Read that.

    First line:
    Sudden cardiac arrest typically occurs after a violent struggle.

    Second line:
    Place subject in recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia.

    Officer Lane asked Chauvin TWICE to put Floyd on his side.

    I don't think I'd want you as my defense attorney.
     
  28. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The question I have, is not whether or not there was a struggle, but how much effect the drugs in his system, combined with his health problems, contributed to to the cardiac arrest. Again, this is not a black and white case, there is definitely other factors at play. As opposed to how it was presented months ago, which was that Chauvin asphyxiated Floyd.

    I think some people are making more out of what I'm saying than they should. I'm just posting questions that I now have. I'm not saying I'm right, but I honestly wonder how these other facts are going to affect the case. I agree, I think if Chauvin doesn't get what people think he has coming, there's going to be riots. But, I also wonder if those people are going to be considering the facts that have dribbled out over the months since the video was released, or of they're simply going off the video.
     
  30. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    You are presenting the argument that Chauvin was not responsible for Floyds death because either A: Cardiac arrest would have occurred without the struggle because of Floyds issues and the drugs therefore there was no harm by the officer or B: The officer was only acting as he was trained to do and Floyds issues caused his death, not the officer.

    A: Maybe, but you can't prove a negative, he may have driven from the scene and had a heart attack later. He might have died in a car accident, or gotten mugged and killed, or struck by lightning. None of those things happened.

    B: The training you mention condemns the officers actions even more strongly. He did not follow the training which in black and white states that this technique "typically" causes cardiac arrest and clearly delineates the officers responsibilities for the prisoner once he is restrained. Chauvin willingly and knowingly refused to follow that training, even after fellow officer Lane TWICE tried to get him to do so.

    Those arguments make it even clearer to me this was a homicide.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Minnesota actually trains that restraint, then that's a solid defense but there's still the one issue of 8+ minutes of it being applied. A jury will hear both sides of the story and who knows what will happen- they can all vote to acquit or every single one can vote to convict....there's no way to guess. A murder verdict has to be unanimous though and under the circumstances, I think it would be very difficult to get that guilty verdict on murder 2....even though I believe he is guilty of it. If they go with manslaughter or dereliction of duty though, then I can see guilty verdicts for both since they don't need to be unanimous.

    The thing is, in the particular situation I used as the example- nobody has any idea what they'll do when it becomes a life & death situation. My first instinct was to run out that back door since it was fast and easy...seeing someone get stabbed right in front of you is terrifying. Others might charge straight at the attacker without even registering the danger, while others may freeze and pee their pants...it absolutely happens every single day. And you can't know what you'll do in those situations until you're actually in them...adrenaline, fear and other emotions completely override your everyday logic.

    That's because "thinking" is out the window- thinkers die in an emergency. You're trained over and over again to let your training kick in through instinct...in that moment you're basically primal man trying to survive. When I grabbed that inmates wrist, tossed my leverage to the side and threw him to the ground, I didn't think to do that....I just did it because I'd been trained 100's of times to do it. I slowed my above story way down to try and show choices I had, but in reality from the time I tossed that spanish guy, I hit the panic button within one second flat. I literally threw and ran, then turned to face whatever was coming my way. Luckily it was three or four white/black inmates circling me while facing outwards instead of the other way around.

    Think about that- four criminals put themselves between me and a guy with a blade. They risked their lives for me because it was the right thing to do...criminals are my hero! You know, the people we say are the scum of the Earth, complete losers and psychopaths. Yeah, those guys protected me without hesitation.

    But we can also flip this story around for suspects getting arrested every single day. An officer places their hand on them, these people are scared and that fight/flight reflex kicks in as their adrenaline surges. Maybe they had no intention of shoving a cop, throwing a punch or reaching for a gun....it just happens because it's instinct to protect yourself. But when a suspect resists, then you're in that +1 defense matrix nationwide; a fist warrants a taser or a baton, a knife warrants a gun. And you have maybe a tenth of a second to process that and react appropriately. Add in bystanders screaming, etc. and it's a true power keg that's ready to explode.

    I would not be a cop today for a 7-figure salary...it's just too dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm asking if these factors make proving a murder charge more difficult. Like, Chauvin could have acted inappropriately, and very well might have, but the death could have resulted from the drugs ingested. I'm not arguing that Chauvin is innocent. But, I also think that the situation is different than I initially thought, when I watched that video a couple months ago.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, I completely agree. I really appreciate your perspective, as you have had to deal with restraining violent individuals, and you understand the legal system.

    I work with Juvenile offenders, and while they obviously aren't as dangerous as adults, they can still be dangerous. A 17 year old 6'2" 240lb kids can do some damage. We have to utilize physical restraints. I completely understand where you're coming from regarding training, and the response you feel to that danger, and I understand the reaction another human has when another human puts their hands on them.

    I don't think must people realize how difficult it is to physically restrain sometime safely. I can only imagine what it's like dealing with a large adult male. Many of the guys I work with, while maybe possessing some good physical strength, don't understand how to use their strength.

    Yeah, when I found out that they train in knee on neck restraints, it changed somewhat for me. I do think 8 minutes is probably against policy, but I don't know, I haven't seen anything that says that they have a time limit on that restraint. He definitely should have changed Floyd's position, so he'll probably face liability there. I know we're trained in positional asphyxiation, so that part rings true.

    Thanks for the great comments.
     
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  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Think about this. Pretend that you were born black in a low-income family and raised in a bad neighborhood. How much of "you" would still be the same? Would you have the same career, the same values, the same belief systems? Now say that you were born into a wealthy Manhattan family living the life of luxury. Or born as a Jew during the holocaust. Or any other life circumstance other than what you know as "you". How much of life is based on your experiences & surroundings vs. who you actually are as a person?

    Ultimately, your surroundings create your reality....and every decision made in these types of situations by everyone involved is based on what they believe to be true and right. That doesn't mean your actions are correct or that your perception was correct, but we all do the best we can in the moment based on what our life experiences have taught us.

    The path to truly ending police violence, discrimination, etc. is not a one-sided conversation...EVERYONE needs to evolve their way of thinking and understand that they can do better. Cops, criminals, witnesses, bystanders, etc. all play a part in these incidents and you often have complete opposite belief systems in play. The cop thinks he's making the area safer. The bystander thinks the cop is screwing over yet another black man who didn't have a chance. The witness thinks that helping the cops is betraying the community. All these things are sound, planned out decisions but they can't all be right, can they?

    In the end, the cop has to do better...the community has to do better...the law makers have to do better. The responsibility is on everyone to create real change, and the only way for that to happen is if we all agree there's a problem we can work together to solve. Hatred and finger-pointing just escalates things and ultimately creates a self-fulfilling prophecy by guaranteeing more violence.
     
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  35. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Not really. Why does LeBron need to do the cops' job for them? Is their billion dollar budget not enough to get it done? Is the shooting being ignored by authorities? Will the perp be not charged once they find them?

    https://sports.yahoo.com/vanessa-br...le-bron-james-for-reward-money-002246205.html
     
  36. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He put himself into the discussion. He said he even had to call Ex-President Oboma for advice on if he was going to stop the NBA season. He's now a spokesman for the movement. This is the problem with sports figures inserting themselves into these discussions. BLM says if you don't speak out your complicite or agree with the situation happening. His silence says he agrees with the assassination attempt. Why isn't this a double standard for him and for everyone else if they don't speak out when something else happens?
     
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  37. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I agree.

    How can we, or anyone, help to change that thinking?

    For example, in neighbourhoods where there is an ingrained negative attitude towards the police, how can America help change that?
    If there is genuine racism on smaller or larger scales in different places, how can that be diligently identified and corrected?
    There's obviously more than one answer to each of those questions and the answers will be as different as the different people who ask themselves those questions.

    There will be the people in those neighbourhoods, and they will have different roles too - parents, children, sibling, churches, businesses and other local entities. Then there are the police forces and officers. Then there are the local, county, state and federal governments. Here is where sports franchises could factor in too.

    The more I think about it, the more I think that well-minded, good-willed, generous and compassionate people need to establish a narrative and then need to promote and act on that narrative.

    It's going to have to include dialogue with different groups. It's going to need common values established. It's going to need a sense of humour. And along with all of this, it's going to require openness (without which dialogue and learning, and getting to know others is impossible).

    So what are some of the ways that we can actually do this?
     
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  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    TBH, I think we need to start over with our entire concept of what it means to keep us safe. The current system we have now is not broken, it is working as intended.

    We put our "undesirables" into the same area and then we police the heck out of them to make sure they stay there. This is not just brown and black people, this is also people we consider "white trash" or "redneck".

    Our police system and justice system was designed by slave owners and merchants to protect their profits. Which includes both property and labor as historically it was sheriffs and police the broke labor strikes, with the national guard brought in when it got too dangerous for the hired goons.

    I think we with our modern sensibilities can create a better system that both protects our neighborhoods and serves the people in the neighborhoods.

    Though I also think that means we have to also do something about poverty instead of making it illegal to be really poor.

    Edit: I live in the supposedly Antifa-Progressive-Anarchy-Socialist Seattle area, and what we do to our unhoused people is sickening. Supposedly we are one of the best places to be unhoused so that just makes me terrified for everywhere else in this nation.
     
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  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    We "put" undesirables in these places? I'm not sure I agree with that. There are a myriad of reasons why cities are a mess, but I think the main reason is simply that there are so many people there, and it's incredibly difficult to police large areas effectively. It's broken window theory. When you're a cop in an inner city, your most likely focused on drugs, gangs and violent crime. You don't have time to run down people doing graffiti it other minor crimes. So the more minor crime continues to be rampant, which builds the bigger crime. Why don't people leave inner cities? Because it's hard. Say you immigrate to America, and you don't really know the language, and you don't have a bunch of money or other resources. Where are you going to go? It's easier to go to a city, where you can find people who still speak your native language, and maintain the customs you're accustomed to. Many kids born in inner cities to minority groups grow up speaking primarily their native language that is spoken in their home and their immediate community. Moving out to the suburbs or into a more rural areas requires more money, and leaving the things that make them able to survive. Inner cities are very poverty stricken, which also leads to crime.

    Honestly, I don't know what the answer is.
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    We are just as segragated now as we were before the civil rights era.
    https://www.epi.org/publication/schools-are-still-segregated-and-black-children-are-paying-a-price/

    This is not done by accident. There are many policies that would take a lot of time to point out.

    To your second bold, I don't believe that is done by accident. That is part of the design. There is no reason why suburbs shouldn't have some lower income housing so that people can live in nice neighborhoods.

    Here is an example of hard to prove racist that also creates the weath gap that keeps people in their homes
    https://news.google.com/articles/CA...AowjuuKAzCWrzwwt4QY?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

    It is both hard to leave inner cities and for the most part, as a society, we do not want them too. This is not just color. If a redneck wins the lottery, a rich community would fight to not have that redneck move into their neighborhood. They wouldn't do it by illegal means, they would do it with hard to prove subtle harrasement, not making them feel welcome, and probably using the home owners association.
     
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