Does this change your opinion of Jeff Ireland? it does for me...maybe.

In what darkened corner of Planet Bizarro are Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson more serious attempts at finding a QB than Chad Pennington, Tyler Thigpen, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore (not to mention Pat White, even though we spent significant resources to get him)? Seattle slogged through 3 years of 57.8, 75.1 and 73.2 passer ratings from an aging Matt Hasselbeck without drafting a QB before the 6th round and somehow they are the model of a team that has shown that they value of the QB position. Absolutely ridiculous. Hilarious, but absurd.

 

based on what? The fact that Pete Carroll has only gone after back up quarterbacks?

 

Our leadership had been incompetent, including Shula when we are talking about player acquisitions, especially on the offensive side of the ball. That's why I don't understand the Ireland hate when we've seen horrible player acquisitions from Wanny, Spielman, Saban & Mueller. Compared to those, Ireland is a god yet he gets more hate than all of them save maybe Wanny.

 

So all of you think that we did a bangup job the last decade at QB? How do you explain the difference between the Seahawks and us? I can't do it any better than CK.

 

It is curious that this fanbase has experienced the drafting and player acquisition that is has over the past 25 years and yet still seems to have no realistic sense of expectation for the player acquisition process in the NFL.

 

Chad Pennington was brought in explicitly as a short term rental until Chad Henne was ready. They told him that, literally.

 

there is a difference between "not trying" or "not taking it serious" and sucking at something. You are arguing two different things.

 

I think we did the same job. The Seahawks sucked until they literally got a strangely good couple of years out of Hasselback. Where CK is wrong is saying that what Pete Carrol has done has shown a bigger emphasis on QB then what Ireland has done, simply because of contracts and a couple of blurbs in newspapers. Ireland has spent bigger on QBs than the Seahawks have in terms of draft picks and probably money overall. They did not value the position more than Ireland.

 

define short term? 3-4 years? 2-3 years? A short term rental with his history, while they prepare a second round qb seems to me like a plan for the long term and a serious stab at the qb position.

 

It's not that we did a bang up job at all, but the efforts were made. And Seattle is certainly no poster child for valuing the QB position. They are getting good results this year, but not so much the previous 5 years or so. Hasselbeck was aging and clearly in decline and they did virtually nothing about it. Seattle hasn't drafted a QB in the first or 2nd round since Rick Mirer in 1993.

 

I see what you're saying but at the same time it's hard to argue what you're saying since that exact process brought them STARTER Russell Wilson. To most teams doing the evaluation, Russell Wilson was backup material.

The Seahawks felt that even though most teams considered Charlie Whitehurst a backup, there is a chance he might be more. They were wrong.
The Seahawks felt that even though most teams considered Tarvaris Jackson a backup, there is a chance he might be more. They were wrong.
The Seahawks felt that even though most teams considered Matt Flynn to be a backup or at most a guy that should have to compete for the start, there is a chance he might be more. That evaluation is incomplete.
The Seahawks felt that even though most teams considered Russell Wilson to be a backup, there is a chance he might be more. They were right.

To me it's tough to argue the results. In year one they still had Matt Hasselbeck leading them to a division title and a playoff victory, and by year three they've got quite possibly the best performing rookie quarterback in a record breaking rookie quarterback class.

 

Define short term? Two years at most. That's what they told him and that's pretty clearly what they intended. And he only got that second year because he performed damn close to MVP levels in 2008.

 

Right, but thats a pretty fluid situation. Chad Henne never was ready.

 

Yet they brought Chad Pennington back again in 2010 and told him explicitly he is now Chad Henne's backup.

 

Drafting Tom Brady in the 6th round got the New England Patriots Tom Brady.

To me, it is easy to argue results when results will generally lead to failure.

Just because a person wins the lottery, does that mean buying lottery tickets is a sound financial plan? I heard a guy say, "You don't need to go to college. I bought penny stocks in bowflex and I am rich." He had good results, does that mean that it is a good idea to not go to college and just buy a bunch of penny stocks, hoping one of them strike it rich?

 

So they a) brought in a guy who could still play b) drafted someone to take his place c) brought in a guy who could have a potential impact on henne either through just playing or other means. I still think that's pretty serious. On top of that even if you think white wasn't a legitimate contender, they still brought in another qb selected high, which says alot.

 

I think you're exaggerating by a pretty good margin.

 

1) You're not taking into account the fact that Chad Pennington fell into their laps. They couldn't have planned on getting him until Brett Favre was traded which nobody knew was going to happen until it did.

2) Their ACTUAL plan that off season involved Josh McCown and John Beck competing with Chad Henne.

3) They never actually considered Pat White to be a real quarterback that would compete with Chad Henne. They brought him in for the Wildcat. And have said so. Explicitly.

 

No offense man, but please don't expect many of us here to go along with this. He's nailed it on many a (source)occassion.

The people here do a pretty good job of weeding out the fakes

 

I do admit to exaggerating, however I do not think the Seahawk method to finding a quarterback is one a team should follow.

 

Seriously man, you should seek help or take some chill pills because the last few months you've gotten worse and worse.

I'm not even going to bother with the first portion of your post but that last sentence is a little off base. I've never claimed to be totally innocent of anything. I'm surely not but It is you that flies off the handle. So I won't goes as far as calling you a piece of crap but you are most definitely a guilty party.

 

I was a critic of the Tarvaris Jackson/Charlie Whitehurst ideas because I didn't think that was going to work. But I was an admirer of the Matt Flynn/Russell Wilson plan. It's easy for me to claim they were being misguided with Jackson/Whitehurt, yet it's the process that brought them Flynn and Wilson as well.

We can sit here and claim they got lucky but where's the proof of that? How do we know that they weren't in fact picking a sample of players that had a much higher than expected chance of producing a star, and that's exactly why they did produce one?

 

Then make it stop! Stop cussing at me, and everyone else in posts and you'll get a lot less flack. Stop insinuatiing that I don't do well with comprehension and you won't get flack.

Don't have to come back with a, well you said post. I know I'm not innocent but man, you go a little to far sometimes

As for you quoting me. I did not quote you in that post. You should have left it alone....

 

How many 3rd round quarterbacks work? Especially in their rookie year.

I only find a plan a good one if it can produce results that can be replicated.

What team makes picks without believing in the players they bring in?

 

The process worked only because Whitehurst and Jackson really sucked. Had they shown any promise they probably would have been given more time and the Flynn/Wilson acquisitions wouldn't have been made.

I'm not saying they got lucky at all. I loved Wilson and a lot of other people did too. I'm assuming they were among them. But that has nothing to do with the value they place on the position or the resources they have spent on it. The fact that they found an Armani suit, and recognized that it was a nice suit, doesn't change the fact that they were shopping in the bargain bin in the outlet shop.

 

Have some confidence man. You cant possibly do it any worse. That was the most pathetic attempt at an argument I've seen in a long time. Do you really think CK, or anyone else, would be singing the praises of Ireland if he had brought in Tarvaris Jackson, Charlie Whitehurst, Matt Flynn for major money, and Russell Wilson at the QB position?

How does that list compare to Pennington, Henne, White, Thigpen, Moore, Garrard and Tannehill? Seriously, what would be a sign that Irish takes the position as serious as Carroll, drafting Ryan Mallett in the first round?

The Seahawks are having a good season, congrats to them. And that's pretty much the entirety of his argument. If they were losing they'd be idiots. That's how it works. Your boy is just a lot more long winded about it.

 

I believe it's called "Ireland sucks-I'm smarter than him-let's make up ****-we have nothing better to do"- ville. If you've never been its about thousand miles south of reality.

 

Oh, that place. Actually, I visit it "virtually" almost every day when I come on this site.

 

I respectfully can't support a notion that Seattle has favorably "flooded" the QB position since 2010.
What did they flood it with?

• 1 QB drafted from 2006-2011 [a 6th rounder at that]?? {Seattle hasn't used a 2nd or higher at QB since 1993}
• $35.5 million toward:
  • a 4 yr backup with no starting experience who cost Seattle a 3rd rounder & harsh swapping of 2nds? (#60 to #40)
  • a Minnesota castoff w/ a 54 QBR & 4 INTs in his only 2 real appearances in 2010 prior to Seattle signing him?
  • a 7th round backup, with 2 starts, whom his own OC didn't want as more than a backup?
• Hasselbeck coming off 2 previous seasons w/ a combined 69.9 QBR, 22 TDs, 27 INTs?
• a passive attempt to address QB this draft? QB obviously wasn't a priority b/c Seattle passed the position over until the 3rd round and had already overpaid $19.5M for Flynn. Wilson was obviously not their coveted answer all along b/c they wouldn't trade up for him despite the QB-needy Bills picking 6 spots ahead.

So how is that "flooding"?
Teams roster 2-3 QBs. Seattle had grabage at QB. It's not flooding; it's filling the roster. They filled it with garbage and overpaid for that garbage, and had the Bills taken Wilson 6 spots earlier, Seattle would still have garbage.


On the other hand, Miami did the following:

• brought in a legitimate veteran in Pennington
• drafted 2 QBs in the 2nd round
• traded a 5th for Thigpen who, in his 2nd season removed from a small school, started 11 games with 18 TDs (4.3 TD%) to 12 INTs.
• signed Matt Moore in FA who had 13 starts in Carolina, became 2011's 12th rated passer, significantly outperformed Jackson, wasn't a castoff like Jackson, and didn't cost a 3rd & swap of 2nd rounders like Whitehurst.
• signed Pat Devlin for $390k who might become a better backup than Matt Flynn.
• signed a true veteran, Garrard, for $16 million less than backup Matt Flynn.
• prioritized QB w/ a high 1st rounder and made CERTAIN the position would be addressed (rather than the passive attempt by Seattle).

 

Now, if the Ireland pessimists' mantra previously was, "Ireland sucks until he spends a 1st rounder on a legitimate QB prospect", then how can those same pessimists praise Seattle with a straight face for the terrible effort they've given to addressing QB since 2008 when bringing in nothing but backups and not spending higher than a 3rd rounder on the position?

They didn't even prioritize Wilson. They drafted him in the 3rd round, and didn't trade up. They lucked out with him. For all the money and draft picks they've thrown at garbage and backup QBs you'd think they would've AT LEAST traded up for Wilson if they thought he had a chance to become the player we presently see before us.

 

90%.
You're showing to much respect for these "reporters"

 

naw, John Schneider was sky high on Wilson, that was his pick and, based on reports, his pick alone because not only did Pete Carroll have his doubts about the pick but even the other scouts disagreed, and Schneider came out after the draft and said he had rated Wilson as the 3rd best QB in the draft.

 

Cmon, who you trying to fool, LB?

Redskins traded TWO FIRST ROUNDERS & 1 SECOND ROUNDER to move up 4 spots for RG3. That's being "sky high" on a player.
Schneider refused to trade up 7 measly spots in the 3rd Round to ensure Buffalo couldn't snag Wilson, not to mention Schneider passed Wilson over in the 2nd round, so obviously he didn't mind giving 31 other teams a shot at him before Seattle's 3rd round next pick.

That just shows Schneider's mentality was, "Wilson is still on the board so let's take him"; whereas, if Schneider thought Wilson represented the answer to the future, the mentality would've been, "I'm not risking it. We're trading up to guarantee we don't lose him."

 

I totally agree. Been on forums with Ozzy for over ten years and anything he wants to post is fine by me. My all time favorite camp reporter til he retired from it.
I don't feel like going back through this thread and reading every post he's made but I really doubt that Ozzy told FinD that he was a self important piece of crap, like FinD accused him of.

 

Just like in the recent uniforms thread when you said something like: anyone who likes the original logo, or the throwback uniforms best, has mental problems?

 

Yes just like that. On a similar note, how do you survive while your heart is Oregon and the rest of you isn't?

 

I said I liked that Seattle continued to address the QB position and quickly moved on from failed attempts in a direct response to question about what I liked about how they do business. I never directly compared Seattle's QBs to Miami's QBs. But way to build yourselves a nice straw man. You Ireland guys love that term and know how to build one.

 

The argument turned into a battle of approaches between two different teams towards QBs. It may have changed from what you originally said, but that doesn't mean it was a straw man. Conversations are fluid and organic. For example, you were talking about Seattle's approach to QBs in a thread about ireland trying to find a WR after Marshall.

 

To address the original post, this doesn't make me change my opinion. Seeing better production out of our current players will help. Getting better players will help. Making moves I like will help me to accept Irish as our gM.

People think the Ireland haters hate him personally. Personally, I hope he wins the powerball and retires happily ever after. Until we can be better than the same sub .500 team we have been year after year, I will not be happy with him.

It's frustrating seeing good play calls often failed, because of inferior talent.

If we win 12 games next year, I'll be a supporter. I'll be skeptical of the one hit wonder, but way more supportive. But it's always the same ole story, play tough, just lose, miss the playoffs, out of it by December. And it's been this way for too long.

I don't care about what ifs and hypotheticals and being right or wrong in the future as seasons go by. I want to be good. With Irish at GM, all i have seen is 7-9 or worse. I don't believe in him based on what he has done here.