Does this change your opinion of Jeff Ireland? it does for me...maybe.

No worries Sect, even if you would have posted source sommeone woud discredit it

 

Then you keep the info to yourself. Why share it ? It's not been known that people make things up to aggrandize themselves in front of others. I'm not suggesting you have done this, but unless you can back up the story with some evidence, then its an unprovable story that shouldn't be wasting bandwith.

And you shouldn't be asking people to think about changing their minds on someone based on an unprovable story about a trade that didn't happen.

 

That's a curious take on it. Whitehurst, Jackson and RWilson were all pretty small investments in the QB position. They got Whitehurst for a swap of 2s and a 3. Jackson was signed to a 2 yr. $8 million deal. Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Flynn was signed to a "compete for the job" contract. If those were the resources that the Dolphins spent on the QB position, people around here would be saying Ireland doesn't value the QB position.

 

This really makes me chuckle in light of an exchange we had recently where you took the position that any report that does not include a quote and the identity of the source is not credible.

 

I think Seattle has been too active to say that they don't care about the QB position. They've shown philosophically that they don't necessarily believe in taking a QB high because they have felt they're just as likely to get a good one with mid-level assets and through coaching. It was a bumpy ride for a bit, but what I like is that they kept filling the hopper with options. Whereas in Miami, the Dolphins invested a mid-level asset in Chad Henne and then stayed locked-in for four years, as if they'd spent a high-level asset on him, in Seattle they kept investing more mid-level assets until they found what they were looking for. First Charlie Whitehurst, then Tarvaris Jackson, then Matt Flynn, and then Russell Wilson...while keeping Matt Hasselbeck for an additional year into Pete Carroll's coaching reign. This was all just over the course of three off seasons.

I appreciate that approach. It might not have been the approach I would've taken but I appreciate the merits of it. I don't particularly appreciate the merits of taking a quarterback with a mid-level asset and then locking in for four years waiting to see if he was finally going to perform well.

 

I think it's pretty obvious how those statements don't contradict. You can cite a source without listing who it is. In fact, 95% of the time that seems to be exactly how it's done. There's a difference between seeing a report, say from Barry Jackson, which says "Sources close to the situation have informed me that ______", as opposed to a piece of prose which says "Ross was uncomfortable with ______". And in the case of Dave Hyde's piece, pretty clear that was a column, not a report, and in the column he took license with the same blurred distinction that you've been setting up as your home for this entire thread, between Joe Philbin merely assenting to Jeff Ireland's ideas to trade players, and Joe Philbin demanding they be traded. Dave is saying for all intents and purposes they're the same. I don't agree.

 

As CK already pretty much already stated, I don't necessarily agree with the approach of trying to continually address the situation with mid-round picks and free agents, I appreciate the fact of continually addressing the position, playing the best performer, and not being too slow to move on from a failed or underperforming attempt.

It's something the Dolphins need to keep in mind with Tannehill. Let's all hope he continues to improve and Miami never needs to worry about it. But if he were to regress in 2013 as Chad Henne did in 2010, Miami should move forward immediately to re-address the position.

And I'd find it refreshing if Miami drafted a mid-late round upside QB this season to push Tannehill or to develop. Ireland will never do that though. But who knows. We do know he likes hunting for bargains at QB. I think deep down his arrogance festers and burns at the fact he had to draft a QB in round 1 to save his job. He always thought he could find a bargain QB like a Tony Romo in Dallas. He's even eluded to it in interviews.

 

You want facts, fine are some.

FACT: Just about half your posts (up until the quoted one above) in this thread are either attacks on me or *****ing at me.
FACT: I attacked no one, I was defending myself from you, Clean, Fin-Onemal, Monst, etc.
FACT: I've been told in this thread that team chemistry doesn't exist but it does exist and doesn't matter.....by the same poster
FACT: My first post in this thread I actually defended someone who I generally disagree with from someone who i generally agree with.
FACT: I've had three different posters flat out lie about things I've said and then try to rake me over the coals for those lies I never said. And the usual suspects thank these posts, yourself included.
FACT: You attacked me in this thread before I ever said a thing about you or to you.

The problem is, you are the self important piece of crap you're making me out to be and projecting all this on to me.

 

Yet he's been forced to admit that he had nothing to do with scouting or signing Tony Romo.

And to the end of what you're talking about with a mid or low level QB prospect, I think the Dolphins are good seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes on Pat Devlin. When he was coming out I came away appreciating his accuracy and ability to do like Marc Bulger, go an entire game without a pass hitting the carpet for the wrong reasons, but thinking overall he doesn't have the confidence in his own arm strength to manage a collapsing pocket and make decisions that really hurt defenses. He also had questionable attitude and decision making during the run up to the Draft. It wasn't the arm strength itself but the confidence that was missing. And so, that's why he went undrafted. Since then he's shown more confidence than he showed back in college and that makes him a somewhat interesting prospect again.

But at the same time, you have to be at least a little intrigued with some of the mid to low level prospects like Zac Dysert, Brad Sorenson and Matt Scott. Also Sean Renfree whom I'll get to see at Shrine practices. Given that the chances of Ryan Tannehill being a healthy scratch from any game in 2013 are essentially nil, adding another option to groom wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

The didn't lock into Henne for 4 years any more than Seattle did with any of their QBs. They signed Chad Pennington to a bigger contract than Seattle did for Jackson. They signed Matt Moore to a contract that was not too far off from what Seattle signed Jackson to. They used a 2nd on Pat white, which was about the same level of draft resources Seattle spent on Whitehurst. But unlike Whitehurst, Henne at least showed something to warrant being given a little time to develop.

 

That's nonsense. A report does not become any more credible because you put the words "A source close to the team says . . . ." in front of it. If anything, that makes it less credible because the reporter is indicating that he considers there to be some room to question the information. That is the reporters way of separating himself from the information he is reporting, not his way of validating it. Solid, factual information gets reported straight up, without the "a source close to the team" nonsense. A reporter says "Reggie Bush is the dolphins' leading rusher." He doesn't say, "according to a source close to the team, Reggie Bush is the Dolphins leading rusher."

Dave Hyde's piece is a column because he is a columnist. But that doesn't mean he doesn't report facts in his columns. He does. All columnists do. And you have no basis to say he took license with anything because you have no information to suggest that the information he stated as fact was anything other than 100% true.

 

You lose a lot of credibility when you resort to comments like this.

 

I have to agree here with this. I admit I'm a little biased as I think Ozzy is an all round good guy and solid poster but there is no reason to lower the bar to personal attacks.

 

And you guys were where when he attacked me first?

I hadn't addressed Ozzy in this thread before that post. Let's just stop with the nonsense.

The crazy part is that come back day after day in the hopes that this crap stops.

 

Well, you're right you shouldn't be personally attacked either. I hope you don't feel personally attacked by anything I've said in this thread, as it wasn't my intent.

And isn't "self-important piece of crap" escalating things pretty quickly from "dingaling"?

 

Sure it would be a quick escalation if it went from directly that to what I said. But it didn't, this happened over days and has gotten to this point.

I honestly try really, really hard to not just attack someone. I may say their stance is crazy or silly but I'm not attacking them and that is fully with in the TOS. But I get personally attacked a lot, and I'm too stupid to just report it and instead I attack back. Because I'm dumb.

 

I'm not jumping on you either Fin D. Just trying to help maintain a little peace around here.
Merry Christmas.

 

Well if THATS what youre doing, then shouldn't you say 'Happy Holidays' instead?!

hyuck hyuck.

 

Again, a reporter doesn't need to cite a source for every fact he reports. Saying "a source told me" doesn't make a report any more credible.

Here is an annotated version of a recent Chris Mortenson report:

When a reporter/columnist has information that he believes is fact based on the strength of the sources and the nature of the information, it is usually reported straight up without a source. When it involves speculation about what will happen in the future, or if the reporter believes there may be reasons it may not be completely credible (but the fact that it was said itself makes it newsworthy), the reporter/columnist refers to anonymous sources to distance himself from the information.

 

Surprised it took you this long....

 

This aint Walmart.

 

Chad Pennington was re-signed to be Chad Henne's backup and they made that clear to him. And Matt Moore was also signed to a backup's contract and they immediately recanted on their previous language about signing someone to compete with Chad Henne, and acknowledged that Henne is still their quarterback. They did not have the two compete in practice. Moore was the backup, plain and simple. Each guy the Seahawks grabbed had a chance to be the QB of the present and/or future.

 

Pennington was initially signed after Henne was drafted and it was not to be a backup. He was the starter from the beginning. The second Pennington contract came after Henne went 7-6 and had a respectable 75 rating as a first year starter. So yeah, Henne was the presumptive starter but re-signing Pennington was in part a hedge in case Henne didn't work out. They also used a 2nd on Pat White. Moore was signed right after the lockout ended in what was known to be a shortened offseason and Henne was the incumbent. Hasselbeck was leaving, so there was no incumbent in Seattle. Nonetheless, the structure of the Moore contract included incentives that would have paid him $7.5 million over two years as opposed to the 2 yr. $8 million contract Jackson signed with Seattle. Not a real difference. Miami was a little smarter to structure the deal so that Moore would only make the $7.5 million if he started and hit all the incentives, but it's a pretty bizarre argument to suggest that Seattle was smarter about the QB position or valued it more because they were willing to overpay a little for Tarvaris Jackson. And, of course, the Dolphins used a top 10 pick on a QB in the 2011 draft and Seattle used a 3rd round pick. Seattle did agree to overpay for Matt Flynn, while the Dolphins did not, but I don't see how that is a reflection that the Seahawks valued the QB position more.

 

Not for the first time, or the eleventyeth hundred, I question whether you even believe what you're arguing. And I'm not even trying to be a prick when I say that. I'll reserve that for my other posts when I'm intentionally being a prick to you.

But you're sitting here arguing the volume and pitch of the sizzle instead of the taste of the steak. The fact of the matter is yes, absolutely, each one of the four guys that the Seattle Seahawks acquired in Charlie Whitehurst, Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Flynn and Russell Wilson, had a shot at being "the man" there. And instead of locking in on one of those guys and waiting to be explicitly proven WRONG on the thesis behind signing him, they kept flooding the field with options and waiting for one of the guys they acquired to prove them RIGHT. That's a key difference in how they've handled the QB situation versus how Miami handled it post-Henne.

They drafted Chad Henne in the 2nd round and declared him immediately to be the future at the position. They declared that. To players on the team (Pennington was told that when he signed, explicitly), to the press, to everyone. From then on they simply waited for Chad Henne to prove to them beyond a reasonable doubt that they were wrong. His performance in 2009 was hardly the stuff of legend. He was doing well during the year and then finished the season poorly leading to a losing record. Instead of grabbing another guy that might compete with him, they continued with him as the plan in 2010. There were no competititons in camp, no promising prospects that might take hold of the position and hold it forever...unless you count Tyler Thigpen as such and if you do then why didn't the Dolphins? Why didn't they have him compete for the job? Then 2010 passed and they promised, we're going to get Chad Henne some competition. They said it. Explicitly. Then for whatever reason (striking out? who knows?) they didn't. They signed Matt Moore to a contract befitting of a backup quarterback. Was Tarvaris Jackson signed to a contract that wasn't much more expensive? Sure. But the Seahawks gave Tarvaris the chance to win the job for good. When the Dolphins signed Matt Moore they openly referred to him as Henne's backup and they did NOT open up competition in camp. So once again, Chad Henne was the guy, and they were just waiting for him to prove them explicitly wrong for thinking so.

And with that, I'm done arguing this subject as my point is pretty obvious and I'm comfortable that anyone reading, if they're being honest with themselves, will agree.

 

To be honest, you seem to be the one arguing about the sizzle.

Any one of the QBs we brought in could have taken the starting nod (save White). Had any one of them wowed in practice they'd have been the starter. You are basically arguing that there's nothing any of them could have done to be the starter and you're not blaming that solely on Sparano. Henne was benched. Ireland brought in a steady stream of QBs from just about every way possible. Thigpen played, Moore played, Penny played, all while Henne was here. As inept as Sparano is, I don't think he benches who he feels is the better QB. He was probably wrong on who he thought was best, but I doubt he intentionally sat who he thought was best because of a contract or blurb in the paper.

 

Classic

 

I have no idea how anyone can argue with this. We did not get serious about QB really until this year--since freaking Marino. There is a difference between bringing in bodies and bringing in potential starters. By comparison if Pete Carroll were Nick Saban, he would have brought in both Brees AND Culpepper.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

And Pennington, Henne, Moore, Garrard and Tannehill all had a shot at being "the man" here. When you draft a QB in the 2nd round or higher you expect him to be the future at that position. If you don't think he will be you don't draft him that high. But as soon as Pennington became available, he became the man. And he would have remained the man had he not gotten hurt or played terribly. Heene showed promise in 2009, but you are right, it was not the stuff of legend. But contrary to your "instead of grabbing another guy that might compete with him", they did just that by drafting Pat White. That proved ill-fated, but that draft pick investment in Pat White was more than anything Seattle has done in the last 5 years. Or the last 10 years for that matter. And 4 games into Pat White's career here, they brought in Tyler Thigpen, who had started 11 games in KC the year before and played reasonably well. At least as well as Tarvaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst had ever played for any extended period of time. And they did bring in competition for Henne after 2010 -- Matt Moore. Despite the lockout and the fact that Henne had been working with the new playbook for months and the offseason was shortened, Moore said he was told he's have an opportunity to compete for the job and he was. The circumstances stacked the deck against him, but he did have the chance to win the job. And he had the chance to keep it this year. And Garrard was brought in with a chance to win the job. So was Tannehill.

The distribution of snaps among QBs in camp is decided by the coaches, not the GM. Neither Tony Sparano nor Dan Henning nor Brian Daboll are still here. But the Dolphins FO repeatedly brought in guys who were at least as competent and experienced as Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson. Whether those now-gone coaches distributed the practice snaps in a way that gave them a real chance to win the job does not reflect on the GM or FO.

 

people can argue with it because it's nonsense.

 

I don't think people are arguing that we weren't serious enough about QBs, the argument was about Seattle being more serious then we were. If Charlie Whitehurst, Tavaris Jackson & Matt Flynn show a more dramatic importance given to QBs then Moore, Thigpen, Devlin & Garrard, then I'm not sure the argument holds up at all.

 

Oh okay.

 

If you're throwing high picks at a position, and getting sought after fa's, you are taking it as important.

 

Then our leadership since Shula must be truly, truly incompetent. Again, they were not highly sought after! And just because we drafted them high doesn't mean they were going to challenge for a starting job...for instance, Pat White.

 

It's not that the Dolphins weren't serious about the QB position as much as they were simply inept at finding one.

 

If Pete Carroll were Nick Saban he would of traded for a back up quarterback and then sign a back up quarterback.

 

Not if Drew Brees and Daunte Culpepper were available...

 

So you have a one for instance? Was penny not brought in to challenge? Would he have challenged elsewhere? What about culpepper? Feeley? All of these from what I remember were pretty sought after at the time. Did they suck it up, sure. But that's the privilege of hindsight I suppose. You can look back years later and claim something was stupid because you already know it was stupid.