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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, May 28, 2017.

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  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    From a very knowledgable football mind that I respect..

    this gives me a lot of hope about a subject that I'm not as versed as the schematics (my name for folks who truly understand offensive schemes) are.

    Do you agree or not and why?
     
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  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I obviously agree and have been saying it for years, he just needed to be allowed to react to what he saw by being allowed to audible.

    Imagine what it was like to read the defense correctly pre-snap, but you aren't allowed to change the play AND you have two of the worst players in the league as guards while you play against defensive minds by the name of Ryan, Bowles and Belichick....TWICE a year.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, I've been quoting coaches, and others, who for years have been saying the problem is not Tannehill's ability to read defenses pre and post snap, and arguing that Tannehill for at least his first four years didn't have a pocket to work in. I've seen him try to climb the pocket, or escape out the sides from pressure, only to have have the pressure then come from where he was trying to escape to.
     
  4. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the pre snap part. He works hard and obviously prepares.
     
  5. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Oh boy


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  6. danmarino

    danmarino Quarantining like a MoFo Club Member

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    He's a very bright guy. And for those who want to be contrary, he's also football smart. When he's been permitted to audible he picks the right play. (And that's per Adam Gase.) I've been saying for sometime that if you watch him in college his pocket awareness was very good. The RT we saw pre Gase was handcuffed by his coaches. They almost ruined the kid.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you want anyone to say DJ. If someone you really respect said that, then I'm not sure why you're asking us.

    Do your eyes see a great pocket QB that generally gets us in the right plays and finds the open receiver downfield? Or do you see a QB that checks down too much if his hot read isn't open? When the primary receiver isn't open, is Tannehill stepping up in the pocket or scrambling to buy more time? These are things that anyone can clearly see and pass judgement on if they're paying attention.
     
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  8. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    In response to the last paragraph, I think he struggled with ALL of the above under the Philbin regime.

    He has gotten significantly better at those things in just 1 year under Gase and I expect to see a QB that is consistently playing at a top 8-10 level in 2017.

    That being said the comment DJ is referencing is a nice compliment, but a generalization.
     
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  9. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    It seems that Julius Thomas agrees as well.

     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This isn't about his ability to maneuver within a pocket..I know where's he's at in that regard.
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm asking because I'm interested in people's opinions that are smarter than me when it comes to pre snap and post snap reads..
     
  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I like where your head's at, but we both know that is unlikely around here.
     
  13. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I have to ask; how does one check down too often when their hot read isn't open when typically your hot read is a quick pass to a receiver who is in close proximity to the LOS to begin with? The word "hot" is used because there is pressure etc and one wants to get ball out quickly.

    A check down is usually a short pass in and of itself though it doesn't always mean it happens at the speed one gets the ball out on a hot read. But in many instances they are interchangeable depending on the play call.

    Also if the hot read isn't there then the play is usually ****ed to begin with, and if you're considering buying time, scrambling to make a play to receiver etc those plays are typically scripted from a standpoint of receivers breaking routes off or altering the original route based on rules only applicable when the QB scrambles and thus are not considered either hot, or check downs.

    Just asking for clarification of that.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The quote in the OP mentioned both pre and post snap read AND pocket play...
     
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  15. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    My strong opinion is that Tannehill is as good as any QB in football and better than most when things are on script. A significant part of his ability to be great on script is being good at pre and post snap reads.

    Where Tannehill has struggled has been when things go off script. For example IMO Inconsistent routes by Wallace were a much bigger issue for Tannehill than catch radius. We saw in Wallace's 2nd year where they shortened and tightened his routes that he and Tannehill were able to get good outcomes. I feel the biggest problem with Turner and Thomas for Tannehill wasn't that they were bad, it was they were inconsistent, sometimes he had blocking other times they whiffed completely.
     
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  16. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    RT's pre-read needs some work, which is why I believe Gase took the hurry up out of the O, and doesn't line him up under C much.

    His post read is hard to judge because he doesn't throw guys open.

    Overall field awareness is where I think all RT's problems are, it's exactly what keeps him from being elite imo.

    RT is obviously a smart guy, but I think his thought process is more deliberate, instead of "see-react", I think it's "see-think-react".
     
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  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't disagree wth the see-think-react assessment, but I think that was a product of the Philbin era.
     
  18. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I think it's more see-react when things are where they should be according to the plan, but see-think-think-react when the things are not where he expects them to be.

    I remember being impressed with some throws he made as a rookie where he threw guys open, but that got lessened the more he was with Philbin. It definitely was coming back after game 5 last year. The San Diego game in particular he made some very good throws to make people open.
     
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  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_American_football

    If that's too complex to understand, most hot reads are made before the snap depending on what the quarterback sees from the defense. In our case, that's usually throwing a screen pass or a quick slant to Landry. But it could just as easily be a bomb to Stills when the QB sees the other team in press coverage without a safety on that side of the field.

    In other words, "hot read" does not mean "dump off pass." It means you adjust to what the defense is showing pre-snap and it could be for any preset distance.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    :jt0323:
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Anonymous sources at the Pentagon tell CNN that...

    Unnamed sources close to ABC News tell us that...

    Reliable sources close to the House Intelligence Committee confirm to NBC that...

    Not saying I agree nor disagree on the stated opinion, but must EVERYTHING we read in the news or on a blog anymore be from an unnamed, anonymous, reliable source?

    Who is this football mind you reference please?
     
  22. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    No other than........




    CashInFist.
     
  23. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    No, but I can bet you missed the part where they mention that the receivers deeper routes are broken off to shorte routes such as hitches or slants. Both routes are normally thrown when the reviewer is within 5 yards or so of the LOS.

    And just to point out maybe the Division 1 coaches that taught me when I played at Penn State in 1994 - you know the year we won the Rose Bowl should call you so you can enlighten them.

    Know why they don't throw deep balls on hot reads? It's in the link you posted if you need a hint.

    And hot reads are many times built into plays - like running back flare routes. But don't stress it's not too complex.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  24. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Which, IMO, is why we need to spend whatever resources are necessary to continuously upgrade the Oline.
     
  25. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    If you were a knowledgable source, or had access to one... You'd understand the importance of annonymity. Just like all the leaks coming from the White House... They're all in there, passing **** along to the outside like, " can you believe this nonsense ? " When you don't have reliable sources, and are fixed on an agenda.... You're going to be pushing crap like this....
    " How to be a better stronger person by being more like the President ! "
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017...nger-person-by-being-more-like-president.html
     
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  26. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I thought that I'd take another look at RT and how he and the team have performed when the OL can keep him clean. In his career, Tannehill has started 77 games, and been sacked 213 times. The Dolphins record in games that he starts is 37-40, which includes 2-0 during games that he's been injured and not able to return.

    >>>There have been only six games in his career where he's not been sacked. Two of those came last season, and the team was 1-1 in those games (PIT and @NE). Overall, the team is 3-3 in those games, but has won 3 of the last 4. The first two such contests were RT's first two home games vs the Jets, and the 2013 game was a total disaster for the whole club. Rex Ryan clearly had a gameplan to stop us via coverage and not pressure, and it worked.

    In the last four of those though, the team has averaged 32.5 points, and RT's passer ratings are 109.3, 125.6, 93.5 and 97.4, with a ratio of 7 TDs and 3 INTs, completion percentages over 70 in each game, and an average of 301.3 yards. Clearly, not getting sacked is a good thing, and having 1/3 of those contests under Gase is a good trend.

    >>>There have been 18 games where Ryan has been sacked exactly one time. Overall, the Fins are 14-4 in those games (3-1 on the road, and 11-3 at home), and were 6-0 in such contests in 2016, so the record under Gase is 7-1 when RT is sacked one time or fewer. One of the three losses was the 36-39 loss at Denver in 2014, and another was the last second loss at home to Green Bay earlier that same season. Neither were the fault of the offense.

    The Fins have scored 25.9 PPG when RT is sacked once, and have had seven games of 30+ points. RT has a 32-13 TD/INT ratio in those games, and 8 games with a 97+ rating. Last season, he had a rating of 99.4 or better in 4/6 games, and his worst was 86.8.

    >>>There have been 15 games where RT has been sacked twice. Overall, Miami is 6-9 in those games, and were 1-1 in such games in 2016. (SF and BAL). (2-2 at home, and 4-7 on the road). The team was 2-5 in these contests early in Tannehill's career, before getting better at handling the adversity, and going 4-4 since. During those first seven games, they only scored over 21 once, and averaged 17.7 PPG. Since then, they've scored 30+ three times, and have averaged 22 PPG (or 24.2 before the BAL game last season).

    RT has a 22-16 TD/INT ratio in these games. He's had a 100+ rating in three of the most recent seven games (2015 & 16), after no such games in 2012-2014 when he was sacked twice.

    >>>There have been 12 games where RT has been sacked three times. Overall, Miami is 4-8 in those games (2-4 at home, 2-4 on the road), but has lost the last four. There were none of them in 2016. Five of them came in 2015 alone.

    RT has a 14-9 TD/INT ratio in these games. His one game with a 100+ rating came during his rookie year vs St Louis. Miami averages 17.25 PPG in those games, and scored over 22 just once, with a high water mark of 27 points at Jacksonville in 2014. They scored between 14-17 points in nine of the twelve games.

    >>>There have been 12 games where RT has been sacked four times. Overall, Miami is 7-5 in those games (3-1 at home, 4-4 on the road). They have won all three from the last two seasons, and were 1-0 last season under Gase (at the Rams).

    RT has a 20-11 TD/INT ratio in these games, though that is inflated by several games where the team took a big early lead, and then played it very safe in the second half and he hung onto the ball too long rather than turn it over. Those three games (vs NE and CHI in 2014, and HOU in 2015) are his three with a rating over 100 in this category, and he has a 9-0 ratio in those, so its just 11-11 in the games where he was truly under a ton of pressure. The team averages 20.66 PPG in these games, but the results are all over the map, and include some really memorable games both good and bad.

    >>>There have been six games where RT has been sacked five times. Overall, Miami is 3-3 in those (2-0 at home, 1-3 on the road), with the wins all coming in 2013 and 14 and the losses the last two years, including the SEA and CIN games early last season. They've averaged 16.2 PPG in the six games, but have only totaled 24 points in the last three. The other loss was the nightmare at New England during which Wake and James were hurt. The wins included shootouts vs the Colts and Falcons early in the 2013 season.

    >>>There have been eight games where RT has been sacked six or seven times, and the Fins have lost them all (0-5 at home, 0-3 on the road). This includes the game vs TEN last season when we played the game with two offensive lineman. The good news is that almost all of the other ones came during the first three years of RTs career. The Fins average 13.25 PPG in these games, and have scored over 17 just twice.

    So, here's the rundown.

    One or fewer sacks: Miami is 17-7 with RT at QB, 7-1 with both RT and Gase, and since the start of the 2014 season, averages 30.66 PPG in these games. Again, allow one or fewer sacks, and you get over 30 points the last THREE seasons. 2014-16, all four losses were in shootouts. The team is 10-2 at home since the start of the 2014 season when he's sacked one or zero times.

    Two or fewer sacks: Miami is 23-16 overall, and 8-2 with both RT and Gase. Since December of 2013, they have scored 30+ points thirteen times when allowing two or fewer. That only happened in 2/15 games before that point. Big turnaround once he adjusted to the speed of the league.

    Three or four sacks: Miami is 11-13, but the results have been much better recently. RT has a 13-3 ratio in the last five games.

    Five or more sacks: Miami is 3-11, and things generally suck, as they do for almost any team that allows that kind of pressure.

    At the end of the day, RT has very, very clearly gotten better at handling pressure and overcoming sacks the last few seasons. The media established their story during his first few years, and they won't let it go, but the arrow is unquestionably moving up.

    Here's Tannehill's stat line the last three seasons at home when hes sacked zero or one time:

    252/386, 65.3%, 2897 yards, 11.5 YPC, 7.5 YPA, 23 TD, 7 INT, 100.06 rating
     
  27. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    The same guy gave Tannehill an A or A+ almost every performance and Moore an F almost every performance this season so I don't take anything he says too seriously. He also thinks Tannehill is basically a more mobile Tom Brady.

    Peyton Manning was the best in the game at presnap reads. Tannehill is no Peyton Manning, not even close. If you could figure out how to measure presnap read ability for every QB in the NFL objectively my guess is he'd slot in around the 12-22 range.
     
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  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't say it was a source, just a narrative, just wanted folks who are versed in schematics to comment on the statement not the poster..
     
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  29. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Back when Gase simplified the offense, I heard specifically that it was not a problem with Tannehill needing things simplified but with the other players on offense. At the time it was a complaint about the receivers and backs making too many mistakes. I heard this second hand (friend who knew people with the team), but it was a source who has always been reliable for me in the past. And it correlates with the praise from the coaches about how well Tannehill knew the offense and how smart he reportedly is. We know Tannehill was the obvious early focus of Gase and the team (logically the QB is the guy who the team will put the most effort with when installing a new offense) so it makes sense that the players more likely to struggle would be the other elements. Also receivers and backs get fewer reps b/c their job is more physically demanding. We also have players like Ajayi and Parker who had maturity issues. It just makes sense that if the offense had to be simplified it was most likely for players other than Tannehill. IMO people who jump to the conclusion that it was simplified for Tannehill are revealing their bias.
     
  30. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    The thing with this is that what is the crux, is it good Oline play, or bad defenses?

    The other thing is that pressure, even to the tune of 2 sacks, is making him ordinary.

    If you need an Oline like Hadrian's wall in front you or playing vs bad D to be good, that's a problem.

    Editors note; you have RT in 14 games last year when he only started 13.
     
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  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    141 IQ and a Rose Bowl Champion....at least you put that experience to good use by flaming good people on forums. Now if you can just polish up on spelling and definitions (like "hot routes" and "normally thrown"), maybe you could have discussions here without looking for ways to attack every word other people say.

    My original comment was that hot routes are usually short routes but they could be longer distances as well. We saw it 100+ times with Tannehill and Hartline with the out route throw along the sideline. So I'm not sure what you're arguing here when you're saying the same thing I am. Flame on though, my friend, and make Penn State proud.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    While I appreciate all the number-crunching, I think it's unnecessary since a sack equals a lost down and a loss of yards. In most cases, it was likely a big contributor of ending the drive. And in any game where you have 4 or 5 empty drives, it's going to be really darn hard to get the victory.

    But when you're looking at raw stats and not W/L, a sack wouldn't necessarily correlate with YPC, YPA, etc. since it's just a wasted play that doesn't tie into those numbers (except for allowing less attempts). So what your research tells me is that Tannehill gets rattled when taking multiple sacks and his efficiency declines on non-sack downs. I would think that would likely be the case for all QB's though.
     
  33. danmarino

    danmarino Quarantining like a MoFo Club Member

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    Some of us have been trying for awhile now to tell others this exact same thing. However, their bias (as you wrote) will not allow them to accept this.
     
  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Gase specifically said in a press conference around week 3 or 4 that the receivers were not running crisp enough routes in the no-huddle so he scrapped it. It was also plainly obvious that the line wasn't conditioned enough for it either. So we don't need anonymous sources here with "insider knowledge"....the coach plainly said that he wasn't scrapping the no-huddle over Tannehill.
     
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  35. danmarino

    danmarino Quarantining like a MoFo Club Member

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    Tell that to some others here.
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it, some people just want to hate. And once they start hating, nothing in the world is going to change their minds....they're on the bandwagon for life. The only thing that matters to them is saying, "I told you so!"....even if it means their favorite team loses football games.

    A good non-football example is Donald Trump- people love to hate him and they are rooting for him to fail. What those idiots don't realize is that if he fails completely, we're in World War III and likely nuked off the map. But they're rooting for it anyway....go figure.

    In both examples, it's in everyone's best interests for the person they're rooting against to do well. They just can't see that because they aren't even looking for the bigger picture...they're too worried about being right to realize their best interests.
     
  37. danmarino

    danmarino Quarantining like a MoFo Club Member

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    That Ki-Jana Carter TD was awesome! How mad was the team when Nebraska was awarded the championship title?
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    ??

    Terrible example. The threshold for any nation to start a nuclear war is huge. A US president can "fail" like get impeached or cause all kinds of societal or economic problems without that threshold for WW3 ever being reached.
     
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  39. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Probably best to keep politics out of it. This topic is contentious enough as it is...
     
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  40. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    However, the fact remains that he brought it back with MM.

    Was it the rest of the O catching up, or was it the QB?

    Either could be the case, but you can't ignore the fact that it was canned when RT was in and brought back when MM was in, could it be coincidence, yes, but then again it may not be.
     
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