With more mobile & athletic QBs entering the league and faring well, spread offenses & the quick passing game being more prevalent, and the introduction of the read-option, I thought it'd be a great time to revisit a chunk of our 2012 games to see what adjustments can be made along the defensive line as a counter measure. I focused on: QBs using their mobility to extend plays the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of our interior pass rush read-option quick passes that offer a chance to be batted down screens and the ability to stop playmakers in space I'm in the process of reviewing every pass attempt and read option run to see where we could've had greater success had we had more athleticism along the line, better pass rush from the interior, better ball-swatting ability, and better pursuit ability to stop running backs in space and prevent QBs from extending plays with their feet (especially when Wake gets pressure turning the turner and there's no one there to capitalize on QBs who are forced to move). So far it seems there's room for significant improvement if we go after it. From what I gather, our interior pass rush is lacking. The overall athleticism and pursuit ability just isn't there to capitalize on plays where either coverage is good, protection breaks down, or Wake gets pressure around the corner forcing the QB to move in the pocket (or out of it). I lost track of how many times the pressure came from running the arc and QBs had plenty of space to step up and avoid the rush, and with one or two pass rushers running the arc it leaves more open passing/running lanes. A mobile QB vs two 300+ pound defensive tackles is a mismatch, as we'll frequently lose that battle. It's a shame how often Wake applies pressure only to see it go for nothing. IMO it should be a priority to bring in a few players who can take advantage of the chaos he creates while he's still at the top of his game. A guy like Ziggy Ansah would be ideal IMO. Sheldon Richardson should be looked at, as well as another pure pass rusher like Cornellius Carradine or Corey Lemonier to give Cam a breather, play opposite him in nickel, and groom as Cam's future heir. In Free Agency the 2 interior pass rushers who come to mind are Wallace Gilberry & Jason Jones. With Zona, there was a pain-in-the-end time delay so I only highlighted the most glaring plays. There are too many pictures, so I have to break it down over multiple posts. Zona #1 2nd & 10 3rd qtr Miami leading 13-0 -Defense rushing 5 -Odrick & Starks in 1 on 1. -Starks beats his man; looks like a sack, but he doesn't have the athleticism to finish the play. -3 guys are on the ground -300 pound Odrick doesn't have the closing speed and is a step too late from preventing a 15 yard completion to Rob Housler. -Zona converts the drive into a TD Zona #2 2nd & 8 4th qtr Miami leading 13-7 -Pressure with 5 but there's still a wide open passing window -Shelby ridden wide - Jones doubled on the other side -leaves 3 on 3 in the middle but they're clogged up and can't get pressure. -lineman on the ground again -Soliai is free but can't close on Kolb, nor get his hands up to bat it down and it instead goes for 33 yards to Housler. -Kolb then throws a TD on the following play Zona #3 4th & 10 4th qtr, 0:27 to play -Odrick attempts a spin move and goes to the ground; takes him too long to get up -there's a little bit of pressure to Kolb's right, so he easily steps up and to his left in the open lane thanks to Odrick on the ground. -Kolb throws the game-tying TD. -with a better interior pass rush, the game ends on this play. Zona #4 3rd & 7 Overtime -rushing 6 (everyone in 1 on 1) -ends get ridden out of the play and again no interior pressure -unsuccessful attempt to bat the pass -Kolb completes the short pass for 10 yards into FG range. Zona then wins the game Wake was a beast this game (4.5 sacks, 4 TFL, 5 QB hits). It's a shame he applied this much pressure yet the rest of the team combined for only 5 QB hits in his amidst his caused chaos. Indy, San Fran, and Cincy are up next where it gets juicier.
Love the write up. Love it. Our defense, the entire defense, has to be the slooooooooowest defense in the NFL. If I may add, the Arizona Cardinals had one of the worst offensive lines in the entire NFL last year also. Its also againts Kolb. Although we sacked him, I think, 8 times. the guy STILL got up in the huge pocket created by their ****tty offensive line. I was at that game, we should have won that game hands down. Cardinals were a sham from the start of the season. I live in AZ and believe me the entire state was banging the drum on how great they were going to be this year and as usual, they sucked but hate to say it, they beat us and we had that game locked up, several times. Thanks for all of this.
Thanks. Those 8 sacks were misleading in a way b/c with Wake not in there we couldn't do ****, especially when we needed it the most.
It did seem like the d-line was a step slow IIrc, at the beginning of AZ's 4th quarter tying drive, we had sacked Kolb and they then made a long conversion. What happened on that play?
We sacked him back to back actually. 1st one- (while rushing 5) Wake & Misi beat the tackles around the corner. 2nd one- rushed 5 and collapsed the pocket all around. 3rd & 18: we rushed 5 again and Kolb had a clean pocket. 15 yard completion. 4th & 2: (blitz). Odrick looks like he has a chance to get either a sack, pressure, or batted pass but gets neither. It looked like he simply didn't have the athleticism to finish the play. Starks gets about 6 inches off the ground to swat at it but misses. So it was 2 4th downs converted on the drive, the other being the TD. here's the 4th down attempt broken down (Odrick is in the middle):
Most painful game of the year..that dude is special, as well as Kap, as well as Wilson and RG with that evading stuff you speak of..They do it like its in the nature..When you recognize that patience when chaos happens, that comfortability behind the Los, that graceful athleticism combined with it, you better look a little harder at the prospect, and have some more guts. Great thread Phinsational, it screams two players..Sheldon or Dion. Whatta folks gonna do when they see these two freaks running around in the underwear, I'll tell you what, if its me who's puttin up the board, those two dudes would be top 10, Sheldon top 5...Sheldon Richardson can run...real fast..at 300lbs, I mean real fast, and he runs all over the field, at full speed...Dion Jordan plays the flat area from his defensive end position with incredible range and explosiveness, I've seen a couple things from this player that I haven't seen before, Sheldon reminds me of a smaller faster N'SUH, and Jordan gives the rest of your defensive players less space to cover because of his incredible athleticism, kind of like the Revis of Dlineman if you know what I'm sayin.. So you wanna add to the biggest strength of our team..That's cool man, I'm down. Hey bro, can you help me out with a nickname for you because you can't do anything with Phinsational..lol
Odrick is not good in space, not good tracking down players in space..What the hell are we doing playing that guy the outside..dude was big ten payer of the year..at defensive tackle in a 43.
Well anyone young enough to be my kid is a young sprout to me, so we could call him Sprout, or is that too long and too hard to spell?
Just call me TP, for the phinsational. You know me- I'd rather have Ansah filling this role opposite Wake...... and Richardson would be my fall back choice..... although signing Wallace Gilberry could suffice if it means freeing up the first for Ansah. The Colts game better illustrates how Ansah could be a big impact IMO.
Allow me.... - Todd-Todd Tiny Pecker (or 3T-Pizzle, for short) - Three Hole Suzy - The Gunch - Dave (cause everyone knows a guy like Todd, they're generally named Dave.)
Great thread Slick. I agree our problem wasn't an edge rusher opposite Waske it was the lack of pressure up the middle from the DTs. We did a lot of things to try and help Wake out though. We sugared the A gaps with Dansby and Burnett, who were still able to get back into coverage effectively, BTW. We used 5 man pressures to prevent double teams, mixed in some corner/safety blitzes, usually w a DL dropping into coverage. I'd like to see more stunts like SF does with the Smith brothers, Odrick and Wake perhaps. If we can grab a Carridine or Jenkins to groom as a DE that'd be good idea, but guys who can bring it up the middle would be a bigger help in the short term. Just a warning, the Colts game is borderline torture. They musta converted 20 3rd and 10+ plays on us, and we had the #1 3rd down % in the league going into that week. Luck was looking like a HOF dodging the rush and throwing strikes downfield. Our DBs were giving way too much ground, no one could make a play. Dansby dropped a pick 6, SSmith whiffs on an easy pick that turned into a TD, then dropped another one late in the 4th that would've given us the ball in FG range to at least tie the game. Moore gets called for a BS hold on Thigpens punt return out near midfield. We end up backed up inside the 20 and couldn't make into FG range in time. A textbook could woulda shoulda game. Offense looked ok when the protection held up, shoulda had at least 10 more points though. Once we get some WRs we'll smash teams like the Colts.
Great work! I appreciate the screen shots. However, I reached a different conclusion as to how I would attack mobile QBs and the zone read offenses, etc. What makes the offenses tough to stop is that they attack three areas. They begin with the inside run, then the edge run and then the pass behind the LBs or secondary (who creep up to stop the run. First, I think you need one DT to be that wall. If the middle of your line gets moved then they just use the safe run up the middle until you're either worn out and/or you have 9 in the box and get beat deep for the quick six. So while getting pressure up the middle is always desirable, the reality is that there are few athletes on the planet who can both be the wall and be fast enough to get sudden pressure up the middle. That reality means that you need some specialists. My preference would be to use one wall guy who can sometimes get pressure and two faster guys who are not quite as stout against the run. When you need more pressure up the middle, you get that from well timed A-gap blitzes from your LB or S. IMO we have a good wall in Soliai and you're not going to find many DTs that are more athletic than Starks and Odrick. I also think we have very good speed at MLB. And I see Reshad Jones as instinctive and sudden around the line. I don't think Clemons plays particularly fast despite his timed speed. So now hopefully your wall and other DTs have forced the offense to move on to attacking the edges. Now you need athletic and fast DEs to stop the mobile QB from getting around the edge or at least limit the gain. Reality is that it's difficult to find DEs strong enough to hold the edge and still chase down a 4.5 QB. I think we have one of those in Wake, but we're lacking that opposite him. I also think you have to rely on your safeties to fill quickly whether they're playing back or up. I think Jones has shown that ability, but Clemons has not. Finally, if the offense hasn't had much success running up the middle or on the edges then they have to attack through the air. The easiest and quickest pass here IMO is the quick seam to the TE especially if you have a guy who is a mismatch against your MLB or if the LBs have creeped up to stop the run. Obviously you can also use the quick slant to the WR if you have guys with size who can get quick separation or if you have enough time you can attack deep down the sidelines (if the D used their safeties to stop the run). From the defensive side you need a good coverage MLB and great safety play. At CB, I prefer good tacklers with some ball skills. I think the rules have made it impossible for most CBs to stop the completion 70% - 80% of the time so my emphasis would be on guys who can body up that quick slant and make the tackle or when they have the opportunity come down with the ball. I think we have a good coverage MLB and one very good safety. I also think that depending on what happens with Smith we have some bodies that can fill the more modest needs of the modern CB position. So, if I were trying to improve our D and prepare it for the current and coming NFL offense, I would prioritize getting another edge pass rusher opposite Wake and a safety that would upgrade Clemons. I would keep Dansby and re-sign Smith. Slightly off-topic, but on the opposite side I would also focus on getting a TE who could be a mismatch against LBs and a WR who could get quick separation and get deep.
Phinsationals name is Todd?...hmmm, I thought he reminded me of my good buddy todd but that's just down right weird. Okay tiny pecker it is..
I agree with this, and I think you misunderstood my emphasis, Raf. I'm not looking to weaken our base defense vs the run. I'm looking to make it more athletic, more dynamic, and with a greater playmaking element by adding a guy like Ziggy Ansah at defensive end who, IMO, is an ideal compliment to Wake and the defense b/c he's stout vs the run but has the freakish athletic ability, instincts, and decisiveness to minimize read option stuff, shut down screens, bat down short/quick passes as good as anyone in the NFL, track down QBs evading pressure or scrambling.... basically- all the plays I highlighted here and in the Indy thread are ones that Ziggy could've converted on (batted pass, pursuit sack, strip, tackle for loss, tackle for a shorter gain, etc). Then in nickel you move him inside and bring in your nickel edge rusher, preferably Cornellius Carradine. The athleticism aspect at DT that I was referring to was on passing plays, namely in nickel, where we don't need two 300+ pound guys trying to track down these mobile QBs. I'd sign a nickel rush specialist like Wallace Gilberry and have he and Ansah inside in nickel. which is why I want Ansah. He's strong enough to hold the edge and fast enough to chase down 4.5 QBs, and he can maintain containment as he plays smart & disciplined, rarely sells out, even at his inexperience level. .... and if you have a powerful 6'6 end [Ansah] with great length, incredible athleticism, is quick twitch, has coordinated hands, and is outstanding at keeping his feet clean, then you can clog these lanes and even create INT opportunities off batted passes. . That would be my priority, too. Hence Ansah. Personally, I don't care that he's inexperienced as a pass rusher b/c he offers everything else we need, can play in base D as a rookie IMO, and offers the type or rare athleticism to size ratio that you only find every handful of years. Wake led the NFL with 87 pressures this year but only 15 sacks. That means there were 72 times the rest of the pass rushers had a greater chance to capitalize on a sack thanks to Cam's pressure. So, IMO, we don't need another speed rusher who excels at running the arc, as we already have the 2nd best in the NFL (behind Von Miller) at doing this and creating the initial pressure; what we need is a guy with elite QB tracking ability who can pick up all the sack opportunities when Wake's pressure forces the QB to move, and in doing so changes the QB's protection angles so that an athletic, fast, strong, agile guy like Ziggy can get off his man and put the QB on his back. Not to mention, 2 speed rushers comes with a liability in today's game b/c, as the plays above illustrate, if their rush is unsuccessful the QB is left with open passing lanes, and if he's mobile & decisive he has open run lanes with only the defensive tackles in front of him. If we draft a guy like Ziggy who has enough length, power, leverage, and athleticism to apply pressure by going right at the tackle (like JPP often does), which in turn keeps him in in front of the QB, in passing lanes where he can get his hands up, in run lanes to minimize mobile QBs from taking off, and when Cam gets pressure, Ziggy's right there to help finish the sack. Re-watching every completion or QB scramble from this season, it's amazing at how many missed sack opportunities just b/c we didn't have someone with Ansah's ability to finish the play. Honestly, there were so many opportunities left on the field that I'd put Ansah's seek & destroy ability above finding another edge rusher. I genuinely feel he's a 10 sack guy as a rookie just by cleaning up off Wake's created opportunities. IMO, w/o a guy like Ansah on the field we're not maximizing what Wake brings to the table. I listed all the Ansah plays in the draft thread that correlate to the Indy plays above, but I'll copy and paste them in this thread so you and others can scan through the Indy plays in succession and then immediately watch the Ansah plays to see how many of them couldn't been prevented by Ziggy. So to summarize (in accordance with the hierarchy you mentioned about the defensive end needs) 1. Ansah keeps us stout vs the run between the tackles 2. His athleticism, decisiveness, awareness, ability to play in space, and phenomenal closing speed minimizes runs to the outside, screens (think CJ Spiller), read-option (Ziggy's length, quick twitch ability, speed, start-stop ability, and discipline make him difficult to run a read option on (think Kaepernick beating us for a 50 yard TD that Ansah could've shut down). 3. He can minimize the quick pass game or at least force OCs to game plan around him. 4. Minimizes the athletic, mobile QB on busted plays, and can capitalize on sack opportunities that Cam creates good point
Where did you get the 87 from? PFF gave him 46 hurries and 23 hits. If you combine them that is 69 disruptions of the QB other than sacks. Were you adding all 3, hurries, hits and sacks? They gave him 17 sacks, which would make for 86 disruptions. I don't mean to be pedantic here. Just trying to be sure we are on the same page for terms. I think of pressures as another way of saying hurries. Perhaps you are using it to mean the same as what I call disruptions, which is adding the 3 together. I wish PFF would include the number of times a pass rusher forces the man blocking him to commit a penalty, such as holding or hands to the face, for that matter. In a way it is a disruption too.
I love Odrick as a straight up 4-3 DT. If ya got him on your team that is where he needs to play. Nowhere else. In that role he does some things that made me think of Bob Lilly.
ill see your Ziggy/Carradine and raise you a Sheldon/ Lemonier, here's why, I can keep Sheldon out on the end in running downs and let that bad *** do what he do, then move him inside on pass rush downs to provide critical pressure up the middle, while bringing in Cory and Wake from the outside. Rush the passer with Wake...Odrick..Sheldon..Lemonier..
Guys.. Shouldn't we do one of two things...sign Starks and trade Odrick, or let Starks go and move Odrick inside? Doesn't one of these two things have to happen iF we have any intention on drafting a Dlineman at 12?
PFF: "Only Cameron Wake notched more total pressures than the 86 Miller posted this year" https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...-stepheson-award-the-best-player-in-football/
I see your logic but I'll raise you Ziggy Ansah who would be a significantly better presence at end in base defense than Sheldon IMO b/c he's the superior athlete with better speed, has shown he can play the edge vs the run & screens, can bat down more balls/disrupt more pass lanes, can track down plays better and track down more plays, is better in space, can drop in coverage, and is better at keeping his feet clean. If you're gonna draft Sheldon to use him at end in base and inside in nickel, then IMO we'd be better off with Ansah at end (b/c he offers more in base D than Richardson), signing Gilberry (who offers a similar interior nickel rush to Richardson), and then drafting another speed rusher to back up Wake and play nickel end. IMO Richardson isn't enough of an upgrade over Odrick at end in base D to rationalize using a 1st rounder on him. IMO he's a penetrating DT who's best going straight ahead, so playing him at end takes him away from his strength in my eyes. It'd be like moving Gerald McCoy to end... or Warren Sapp. Why take them away from their strength as an interior chaos maker?
I was thinking about that, too- re-signing Starks, trading Odrick to perhaps GB, and drafting Ansah or Okafor as Coyle's bigger DE preference.
Soliai has one year left on his deal. I'd move Odrick to DT, resign Starks, rotate the 3 of them, with a sprinkling of Randall now and then. DE is a separate position and strength at DT should not negate the need to draft a DE who can pass rush in the 1st.
I just don't think you can have that much resources in a three man dtackle rotation because the contract for Starks would have to reflect it to make sense? And why would Starks want his contract to reflect that he's going to be paid like a player in a rotation?
Ok, so lets say we resign Starks.. That means with our dline we have under contract..Starks..Wake..Odrick..Solai..Vern.. How again do you justify the 12 th pick in the draft being a Dlineman and not admit you made a mistake on Odrick?
but if he had a better first step he's not making it out of the top 10, perhaps top 5 IMO. I'm inclined to say we're lucky he doesn't have an elite 1st step b/c that might be what allows him to slip to us, which is fine by me. Do you think he can work on quickening it considering he's an athletic, quick twitch player?..... and can he improve his flexibility in regards to turning the corner, perhaps some yoga or extensive daily stretching?
IMO Vernon should move to the SAM hybrid spot, which would allow us to let Misi walk next year. I feel there's a difference between drafting a DE in round 1 compared to a DT, so I personally wouldn't lump all dlinemen together, and I dont think the "admitting we made a mistake on Odrick" applies b/c we drafted him to be a 3-4 end rather than a 4-3 one, right. IMO, unless we have studs at both end spots and SAM hybrid I don't see a problem using high picks to secure those positions, as I'd treat them all individually.
He can learn to run the arc. He's never going to have a dip like Wake, but you can improve flexibility. In his case, he needs to improve his really hand placement. And obviously he needs to improve his recognition as he's so inexperienced. I have never seen somebody improve that first step.
