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Did this season hurt Tannehill?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by bigballa2102, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I don't know. The Oline is even worse. So I think he would have fared similar to Cutler.
     
  2. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It took Brady 7-8 years to become elite and this was with cheating. It took Brees around the same amount of time. Rodgers sat on the bench for 3-4 seasons before he played. Hell, 3 out of P. Manning's first 5 seasons were horrible to average.

    Claiming that a 5 yr QB who has (overall) put up league average stats and who has gone through 3 HC's, multiple OC changes, a churning of the roster, no o-line etc and who played like a top 10 QB in the league right before he was injured has had "plenty of time" is ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  3. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why do you think it's worse?
     
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  4. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I believe both Ryan Tannehill and Adam Gase deserve next year to prove what they can do together in ideal circumstances.

    A lot of you are too quick to forget how good Tannehill played last year. And how well Gase coached last year. It sucks seeing these games play out the way they have but when a team loses it's starting QB a few weeks before the season starts, are these outcomes really that surprising?

    Gase did his best to mitigate the loss, but even the best effort at a position this crucial wasn't good enough. A lot of us tried fooling ourselves into thinking Cutler would be as good or even better. That was a huge disservice to expectations this year.
     
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  5. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    You want the GODS honest truth? yes this year hurt him going forward. This team is going to have to rebuild yet again. That means new players at some key positions that means Ryan will have to relearn timing and possibly a modified system. It means that he will probably have new offensive lineman or should I say lack of a good offensive line and I believe it will affect his game play. If the line is suspect ryan will be running for his life scared he will be injured again.

    Ryans stock has gone up simply because the caliber of his replacements has been so low. I don't think ryan will get better than he has in the past. I think Miami is going to have to fix the offensive line problem before we gain any traction on offense.
     
  6. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Another brainiac, here who knows everything and everyone knows nothing, you do understand his time in the air was literally 28th in the league or lower and was under 4 yards I think its like 3.6 or 3.7 or something, so therefor a 3 yard slant, which you are right is not a screen which is ran for 8 yards says what? whether its a screen or a 3 yard slant his total yardage comes from YAC not in the air, if I remember correctly even Matt Moore had a higher yard in air than RT in the same offense. I know someone will bring up brady and how his yards in the air is like 4.3 or something, but in bradys offense that's what they live off and is non comparable to rt and Miami.

    I have never said RT cant complete passes down the field but what I am saying is a all the praise for a qb who shows no signs of being able to throw the ball all over the yard down the field, by comparing rating etc. its easy to complete short passes look at cutler he has a high rating and we suck balls. do you understand? I do think if RT played this yr we would be doing better just based off team moral because cutler sucks the life out of every thing he touches, im merely arguing that RT is some off the wall great qb by rating when all he does is complete short passes its not hard. Hard to argue with you RT supporters until we finally release and the truth comes out I guess. since he is 84 marino to you guys instead of looking at how he succeeds and how he plays and how different he is from the top 10 qbs in the league. he is nowhere near any of them, but if your fine looking at a stat sheets and playing the game from there by all means that's your choice, I however watch a lot of football and he is nowhere near without even naming brady or Rodgers because no one is on that level besides them, breese, Wilson, big ben, Stafford, wentz, cam, rivers, carr, flacco i would trade RT right now for anyone of these guys and if you say you wouldn't then that's your choice and your clouded, and even the top rookies and second yr men Watson, goff and wentz all look better than RT in 1-2 years, it took RT 5 yrs to have a good year, I guess I have hard time seeing where I am wrong but please pull up some stats that prove your right or something but everyone loves stats.
     
  7. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Im all for that if they make a splash in o-line and draft a qb and gase stops calling plays and gets a coordinator then im all for it, but gase needs to stop these play calls.
     
  8. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    thank you that's where I kinda was going with this and its been skewed all over, I think the over haul is going to hurt him and if they decide to overhaul everything does it hurt his chances to prove in a system he knows instead of going somewhere and getting swallowed up in a bad system.
     
  9. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    well seeing how all of em but RT has won a superbowl I guess we are going in the right direction I guess an mvp and superbowl is in RT future.
     
  10. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I think the line is worse because we couldn't run, but the line seems pretty much the same in the passsing game, the problem is play calls and cutler.
     
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  11. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I get it. So everyone that proves you wrong is just bragging. lol

    I'm not sure you're capable of putting into perspective things like "air yards". When you're touting one stat and using that one stat to prove that a QB is bad or good you should at least see where that stat is in relation to other proven QB's.

    Here are RT's stats: (The columns represent the following:

    Passing Yards, YAC, Air Yards, Air Yards per attempt, % of air yards)

    upload_2017-11-16_10-20-41.png

    Here are some other QB stats:

    upload_2017-11-16_10-22-49.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-23-31.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-26-45.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-27-20.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-27-42.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-28-15.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-29-46.png

    upload_2017-11-16_10-30-16.png




    As we can see no one amongst these VERY elite QB's stands out other than maybe Luck and Wilson. Even then I don't think "air yards" is any measure to use in regards to claiming that a QB is good or bad or whatever.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As soon as Ajayi left the teams YPC went from 3.3 to 6.8.
     
  13. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    Save the snide remarks for someone who appreciates them.

    The reason his air yards are low is because he attempted such a high percentage of screen passes. However, the data clearly shows that his passing was the LEAST efficient when he was throwing screen passes. In other words that 'low air yards' you are talking about, and the high percentage of screen passes, was actually a net detriment to his statistical performance. Ryan Tannehill statistically performed much better when he was allowed to drop back and attack the field.

    In short, you are now flailing and attacking me personally because you crafted a bad argument without doing any research and now you are unable to backpedal out of it gracefully.
     
  14. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I mean its debatable right? But at least last year we could run Ajayi this yer couldn't get anything going. I think our Oline play is maybe consistent with the sheetshow we see each year.
     
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  15. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I think it helped him from the fact that the other QB's have not looked that great, thus it makes him look as good or better. If Cutler and or Moore had been lights out it is likely Tannehill would be gone.

    Also as someone mentioned he is now sitting on the sidelines learning like he should have his first couple of years.

    With the play calling I am not sure any QB could be good.

    I do feel really confident that is this is the kind of offense Gase wants to run that Dougthy could run it. I don't see a need for a 10 plus million dollar QB to throw screens and check downs.
     
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  16. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    what's scary is that I do believe the line is a contributing factor to our demise on offense.
    look at average per game since 2012, and in 2012 we allowed a ton of sacks:
    2012 18
    2013 20
    2014 24
    2015 19
    2016 22
    2017 15

    You can add Cutler to the line as a key reason we have taken a step back
     
  17. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    we had 1 100 yard rusher in a game and he did it twice this year and he plays for the eagles now
     
  18. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    not at all your completely miss understanding what im saying you think im still talking about only screen passes and im talking short yardage passes all around, and your comment of dropping back and attacking the field is clearly a mis representation of the facts, he throws passes less than 4 yards per average in the air, I don't know about you but that's not dropping back and attacking the field lol low passing yards per attempt and 50% yac yards shows he statistically throws short passes there in lies your great rating what don't you understand about that, people who are less inclined to throw down the field and complete short passes have higher ratings its not hard to understand look at Brett Hundly against the lions all he did was dink and dunk balls all day for a passer rating of high 80's and i think he had a completion percentage of almost 70 if I remember correct? so he is elite now in the eyes of you, common man.
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I don;t think it is anywhere near as bad we're making it out to be relative to where it has been.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  20. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Dude your love for stats is clouding the issue, do you understand how many passes it takes to make that % move? so 1% is really a lot in that stat. I was clearly saying RT throws short passes and you guys peg him as in the upper echelon of qbs based on stats and im saying how ******ed is to bring up stats and compare him when everyone on that list is clearly way above RT in the qb aspect besides maybe last year alex smith, because RT throws short easy passes and his stats look good you compare him to guys way above Rt talents. it not worth arguing you because you think stats tell the tapes of a qb just like your stats of cutler in 1 year with gase is clearly proving he was worth 10 mill and proving hes good right? oh and by the way he also has a rating of 86 thrown for 1500 yards in less than 12 games with a 65% completion percentage, so I guess we should keep him around for a few more years as well.
     
  21. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I agree I really think gase sabotaged moore with the gameplan in the 1 game I don't see how he succeeded last year and now he couldn't gain any yards and I think its been sabatoged all year, I don't see how a 10 yr qb cant audible and change plays it makes no freaking sense. I just hope hes learning and not learning bad habits from cutler because in these games I don't see anything you could learn from besides the other team checking plays off and shredding us lol
     
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  22. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Did you really try to use stats to prove RT as a bad QB and then claim that using stats clouds the issue.

    Your posts are ineludible. Every time I read one I feel like I've been sucked into a black hole of ignorance, run-on sentences and poor grammar.
     
  23. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I've never said RT was "BAD" I've said he was avg to below avg never bad once again your miss quoting!! just trying to prove how his stats are clouding his actual performances that's all.

    thanks for doing me the favor!!
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So when he has, what you perceive, bad stats it means he's bad. IE Air yardage.

    But when it's shown that he has good stats or that even the stats you use aren't "bad", in comparison to elite QB's, it's just clouding the real RT?

    Dude...just stop.
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Dolphin Defense Ranking:
    Yards/g:

    2016 = 29th | 2017 = 17th | 12 spot improvement

    Pass yards/g:
    2016 = 15th | 2017 = 15th | 0 change

    Rush yards/g:
    2016 = 30th | 2017 = 20th | 10 spot improvement

    Points/g:
    2016 = 18th | 2017 = 25th | 7 spot regression

    ..................................................................................

    Dolphin Offense Ranking:
    Yards/g:

    2016 = 24th | 2017 = 31st | 7 spot regression

    Pass yards/g:
    2016 = 26th | 2017 = 29th | 3 spot regression

    Rush yards/g:

    2016 = 9th | 2017 = 30th | 21 spot regression

    Points/g:

    2016 = 17th | 2017 = 32nd | 15 spot regression

    ..................................................................................


    Even when you get into the actual numbers of the stat that matters the most...points, it looks pretty bad for the offense.

    ..................................................................................

    Dolphin Defense:
    Points/g:

    2016 = 23.8 | 2017 = 24.9 | 1.1 point regression per game

    ..................................................................................

    Dolphin Offense Ranking:
    Points/g:
    2016 = 22.7 | 2017 = 15.2 | 8.5 points regression per game

    ..................................................................................

    This basically shows that the defense isn't really the problem. The offense is the problem and dramatically so.

    What changed from last year to this year on offense?
     
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  26. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    that's a good lil diagram you have but in the real of things, you cant say RT wouldn't have done as bad or better so why even put that up because of what he did last year? is our schedule the same? no so that comparison from last yr to this means nothing. Is RT the only thing that has changed? obviously gase offense changed, or every team in the nfl figured out gase's offense so really your diagram means in a better word for it D!CK
     
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  27. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said many times you can like your stats all day but based off the play they say a different tune and you are like everyone else allowed to believe what you want to believe, im sure you were a henne gloater as well, so like ive told you 1000 times you can have your stats and I will be the one telling you when RT washes out and never wins a super bowl or even a playoff game you were wrong and at the point you will probably show some stats of how he was great and someone else made a bad decision which is fine you don't seem like the type to ever be wrong. But if and only if he does make it to the super bowl or win a playoff game I am no bigot I will gladly apologize say I was wrong and root on.
     
  28. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Brady win 3 super bowls in his first 5 years? I guess that doesn't make him elite LOL he won more in is first 5 than he did in the next 12 lol but ok it took him 7-8 years.
     
  29. rackhound

    rackhound Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with this completely. He was having his best year and got better as the season progressed and he had more time to learn the Gases offense. I think in his situation you can look at last year more than other years because it was with a different coach and system. Other years he was playing for Philban who i think hurt him with what he made him do, and did not allow him to do. This is the same team with almost the same exact players looking like complete garbage %75 percent of the time with the QB being almost the only change.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Excellent and informative rebuttal.
     
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  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I honestly don't think it helps or hurts him. He'll be judged next season on how he performs when he's back on the field. The only ones hurt or helped by this season are Moore and Cutler.
     
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Because Ajayi carried a billion times for negative six yards. It has to be the line, right? Even though Drake is hitting holes just fine. And because Cutler's amazing footwork is the only reason he's in the bottom five league-wide for sacks. Good run blocking and good pass blocking ALWAYS = the line sucks.

    Oh, and because a few of those banned guys said so six thousand times.
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You mean the Patriots top 5 defenses and Adam Vinatieri won 3 Super Bowls, correct?

    Also, this garbage about "5 years" is just that... garbage. Tannehill was raw, and everyone knee he needed development. He wasn't even supposed to start his first year. Then he had garbage coaches get canned, leading to what, 3 different OCs and 3 different HCs? Gimme a break on 5 years.
     
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  34. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    I never knew that some could "actually" be thicker than brick wall.

    Now, I see that's possible.
     
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  35. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Did this season help or hurt Tannehill's stock? It helped exponentially and there is no other rational way to view it.

    That said, it's really annoying the same people who readily acknowledge how incompetent Philbin was and how he mismanaged the roster and in particular the OL and Tannehill, still want to say stuff like "Tannehill has not shown he's good enough in 5 years".

    The problem with that POV is that Tannehill thrived under Gase last season, yet it's penalizing him for Philbin's incompetence. You have to realize that we took a rookie and put together surrounding "talent" of the likes of Hartline, Naanee, Bess, Columbo, Clabo, Jon Martin, Young, Dallas Thomas, Billy Turner, Jamil Douglas, etc... and also holding Tannehill accountable for not doing more with that **** show, and not having a better offense while Philbin was also not interested in having any semblance of offensive balance with a running game as Philbin had some weird philosophies about passing in place of running.

    Also, if you're going to point at Wentz, Goff, etc... and say they are doing more earlier in their careers, you have to acknowledging that their teams also got them really good surrounding talent, including viable running games to keep defenses from teeing off on them. Look at what's around Wentz and Goff. That's a model for what teams should do with a young QB. TEs and RBs are vital for success.

    Philbin's tenure OTOH, is a model of what not to do.

    And if you're being fair when judging Tannehill, you have to throw out the Philbin years to a large extend for the reasons above and start judging him on what he's done under Gase. Again, he thrived and his play was a large part of how we reached the playoffs last season. He showed marked improvement in almost all areas and enough success that the team most likely continues forward with him under center.

    That said, Moore and Doughty both need to go. When you're bringing in guys like Cutler and Fales over the QBs on the roster, they are just wasted salary. Dump them both and bring in fresh guys with some actual upside.

    I'm hoping we draft a QB to compete or push Tannehill and hopefully can start farming QBs for picks like the Pats do.

    YMMV.
     
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  36. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Using Super Bowls to judge individual talent is lazy.

    I guess since Marino never won a SB he's not elite? I guess Dilfer is elite? I guess Bradshaw, with his 4 rings, was the gold standard until Brady cheated himself to his 5th/

    Yeah, I think I'll take your posts with a grain of salt.

    (And a Tylenol)
     
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  37. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol...Less than 30 QB's out of what, 1000 or more, have won a Super Bowl. You're really going out on a limb by saying that RT won't win one.

    I'm not sure what Henne has to do with any of this, but I wanted to give him more than a year or 2 to develop also. Hell, I've shown you where nearly every elite QB playing today had bench time or it took YEARS for them to become elite. Now, I realize that you think Super Bowls determine individual greatness, but you're 100% wrong on that.

    Besides, I don't remember anyone here saying that RT is the next Dan Marino. What I'm reading is people want to get a chance to find out what he actually is. He's shown flashes of elite QB play. He's extremely talented. Is he talented enough to take an average or below average team to the Super Bowl? Probably not, but who is/was? Other than a handful of QB's, Marino, P. Manning, Rodgers, and a few others, no QB has been able to truly carry an average to below average team to the post season. So if that's true (and it is) why would you keep replacing a QB who, by most people's estimation, can play well enough on a good team to get to the Super Bowl. Wouldn't it be easier to fix what's around RT rather than trying to find that 4 leaf clover of a QB that can carry everybody?
     
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  38. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    Hurt who? Oh you mean the very expensive half a decade QB project we have that has yet to go to the pro bowl? That guy? Yeah I'm past that. Let's go get a qb in the draft. How many years do we want to spend on Tannehill getting better?
     
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think RT has shown that he can play at an elite level under Gase. Will he consistently do it? I don't know, but I'd rather find out than get rid of him and watch him play lights out someplace else. And his contract is average pay for an NFL QB.

    However, if one of the top QB's falls to us in this draft (or we end up with a top 10 draft pick) I wouldn't mind picking one up in order to groom behind RT.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Dense enough, light bends around them?
     
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