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Defending Grier

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Kyle from The Draft Network/Grinding the Tape had the following to say about Dolphins fans' criticism of Grier:

    Click and read the whole thread:

     
  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that we just don't know- he went bust on a few 1st/2nd rounders, traded Tunsil on his rookie deal, and now may trade Minkah. That's essentially 0 for 3 in the first round. It's definitely too early to tell on most picks.

    Plus, they keep say they're not tanking...did he really expect to win with this line? If so, that's an immediate termination in my book.
     
  3. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't have a problem with Grier. I may not have done everything the same and obviously there are misses, but since getting control his drafting record is at worst decent and arguably above average. His picks at least generally seemed to be based on logic. We haven't had huge resources and he doesn't seem to be a guy who takes a ton of risks or moves around during the draft. This is both good and bad. Odds are it will result in fairly typical (average) draft results. If that assumption holds true, I suspect his ultimate success or failure will depend on if he made a good choice in Flores and how he manages the FAs. A conservative FA approach would be welcomed by me, especially after the crack pipe years. And of course, whether that average drafting success includes picking the right QB.
     
  4. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Here is my thing. At best, you can give this guy a grade of incomplete. I lean that more on the side that he is a below average GM.

    Let's think back to last year. Ross wanted to trade back and get Lamar Jackson. Grier said, "He's taking Minkah, and he is willing to accept the consequences." A little over a year later, Minkah is one foot out the door. I think it isn't not unreasonable to say we might be at the point where he needs to accept the consequences.

    The guy has been with the team for a very long time, and we have been drafting poorly for a very long time. I get that he wasn't in charge, but if we walk down the line of Grier being a genius, we have to believe that he went virtually ignored his entire tenure with the Dolphins, yet somehow rose to the GM position. I just don't know if that is a plausible narrative of events.
     
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  5. Makados10

    Makados10 Active Member

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    Context and hindsight is important... Grier had a great 2016 draft for talent, though he lacked the Rams or Eagles' vision to move up for a QB when the top 2 picks were for sale. It's terrible to think our pick was used by the Eagles to leapfrog up to select an elite QB. It is ironic both of those teams have represented the NFC in the last 2 Superbowls while we're tanking in historic fashion because we're too dumb to use our draft assets wisely.

    Kyle only mentioned 3 of Grier's top picks from 2017/2018 as mulligans but all 4 of those picks were. When you had Derwin James on the board who was selected 1st Team All-Pro as a freaking rookie, but we went with Minkah. I'm sorry but that's a mulligan. Derwin is a beast and we selected a guy that wants off this circus. So ya, Grier screwed the pooch the last 2 drafts.
     
  6. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    You can't count trading as a 0 though until you see what we do with it. We didn't trade Tunsil because he was a bust, we traded him because a panicking and desperate team offered a ransom.
     
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  7. IdrA

    IdrA Rebuilding for Eternity.

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    Really can you name all the picks he's landed? So far I can only think of Xavien Howard... So he got lucky once. Nobody else he's ever drafted has proven anything. Even Minkah isn't really established to me... and he was a safe pick that landed in our lap. Any fool could make that pick.
     
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  8. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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    LOL he's a disaster... been with us 20 years and surprise surprise we've been inept at drafting for all 20!

    Don't give the "he wasn't making the calls" BS... the reality is he's been in charge of all the scouts since 2007 (when he was promoted to National Director of College Scouting) which means EACH and EVERY scouting report ever created in the last 12 years have been a direct result of him and/or his scouts.

    If that doesn't scare the hell out of you I don't know what to tell you.
     
  9. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    He passed on Lamar Jackson for a damn slot cb/safety.

    I thought Grier was an idiot then...and, I think he's an even bigger idiot now after seeing how great Lamar is becoming.
     
  10. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I really got off the Grier bus with the Tunsil trade. I was worried when we let James walk and we didn't sign any decent guards in FA, but thought maybe the coaching could help.

    The simple fact now is that even if we draft the next Pat Mahomes (good luck on that because on average those type of players enter the league about once every 5 years) he will be getting killed for at least 3 years behind a sad sack OL, which means we will waste the years of having a good QB on a cheap salary.
     
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  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Why does it take 3 years to build an offensive line? We have a ****load of picks and a ****load of FA money. We can build a line in 1. That we don't have one right now is fairly obviously intentional. The Tunsil trade is pretty much universally regarded as a no-brainer for the Phins.
     
  12. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    When Newsome stormed back into the 1st round to scoop him I felt robbed.
     
  13. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Really it's the utter lack of any accountability in this organization. Talk about failing upwards. It's what we do best around here.
     
  14. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    To be fair, we had still had Tanny at the time. Granted we couldn't protect him worth a damn.
     
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  15. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Ozzy nailed that draft. Came back up in the first round to get Lamar, then stole Mark Andrews in the 3rd round. Andrews is looking like the 2nd best TE in the NFL this year. He and Lamar are balling. Ozzy pretty much rebuilt that horrible offense in one draft.
     
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  16. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Yeah but last time we were able to build an OL on quick turnaround Bill Parcells was running the show.
     
  17. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    In my opinion, Tannehill should have been let go after his rookie deal. His final 3 years were pointless. I'm not a fan of boring, average quarterbacks. I want playmakers. Lamar was the greatest playmaking QB in college history. Our first round pick should have been obvious.

    It's basically the same mistake as the 2001 draft.
    2001 Draft
    Miami - Jamar Fletcher over Drew Brees
    2018 Draft
    Miami - Minkah over Lamar

    It's insanity.
     
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  18. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    You think Lamar would have had the time to develop, while lining up behind turnstiles?
     
  19. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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    Yep that’s when we “astutely” passed on Matt Ryan for Jake WRONG
     
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  20. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Has Matt Ryan actually done anything other than throw it up for Julio?
     
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  21. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    That's the beauty of having a QB with 4.3 speed. You can scheme around a bad offensive line.
     
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  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and grier and the genius's here in miami drafted gesiki over andrews, when it was obviuous coming out of college that andrews was a much better TE. Picked minkah over derwin james that year also. Complete incompetence in the FO is why we have sucked for so long, and ross has absolutely no ****ing idea how to dig himself out of a hole other than to dig in deeper.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  23. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    He’s substantially better than every QB we’ve had since Marino.
     
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  24. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    That's the difference between a top notch front office and what we have. I have admired the Ravens for years. Ever since they drafted Flacco when I wanted us to get him. And since then they have just been a better franchise than the Dolphins. I don't care how many draft picks the Dolphins get next year. I don't have faith they can turn this around in a year.
     
  25. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Look at Tunsil’s career.
    Year 1 - an OK LG
    Year 2 - an OK LT
    Year 3 - a good, but not pro-bowl LT.

    It’s very rare for Linemen to play at the highest levels straight out of the box. Generally they take 2-3 years to develop.

    Seriously, with our OL as it is now can you name one player who would be a definite starter on another NFL team? Also I can’t see any good OL lining up to take our money next year. If I’m offered a job in an organization that I know is a dumpster fire, and that’s what our OL is, I am walking on by, no matter how much money they wave under my nose.

    Which means that if we draft Tua next year it’s going to take at least the 2020 and 2021 drafts to collect a group of NFL caliber linemen. Even then they won’t be playing well until 2022 at the earliest.
     
  26. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    BUt we are OK with just OK. We can get OK pretty darn quick with the resources we have. The thing is everyone knows we are taking. We aren't some accidental dumpster fire just on pure incompetence like the 0-16 Lions team was. We are doing this intentionally. We have ammo, and lots of it. Free agents are swayed by money and the chance to play for a team that has potential. Add a few decent to good ones, add a good draft pick or two and boom, instant OK line.
     
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  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    If we can get to OK pretty darn quick why have we failed to do so? The last decade of the franchise’s history shows that you can’t put together a good line just by snapping up some early round picks and pouring money into FA linemen.
     
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  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't think you can take the coke head oline coach out of the equation. Also, not having any nasty oline players has hurt us.
     
  29. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    Starting from the day free agency begins at the end of our season, the two things I will judge Grier on are:

    1) The QB we draft
    2) Whether he is able to build a quality OL through the draft and with FA.

    I realize we need quality talent at other positions ( like LB, DB, etc.) too. However, I believe the QB and OL are foundational and essential to our success, so I am looking to see how he does there first. I am offering to have a gentleman’s bet on whether Grier can build a quality OL to go with our franchise QB. I don't think he can. Any takers?
     
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  30. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I dont know what Grier can or cant do.

    My boss and I do things very different. You couldmt judge me from his decisions even if I have to be on board in the end.

    What I'm saying is...now Grier is the boss and I dont know what he can or cant do now that he has final say. Sadly, hes made some moves I greatly disagree with. On the other hand he's made a couple I liked as well.

    I guess we will know in a year or two for sure. If I HAD to bet, I'd bet against him but that's just taking the numbers really. More will fail than succeed.
     
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  31. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I’m interested in where Grier and co went wrong from some people’s eyes. What do you disagree with?

    I didn’t love the idea of trading Tunsil from a team chemistry standpoint but I understand why they did.
     
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  32. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I really dislike the Tunsil trade. I know it's easy to say we won the trade but honestly until the picks are made or traded and the players develop we wont know. My opinion is at the end of the day we will end up backwards in talent unless we hit on both firsts.

    I know we are trying to lose from a FO perspective but I'd have tried to do something about the offensive line. We traded a 2nd for Rosen but without a line to speak of how do we evaluate him?

    It seems like a wasted pick almost in that regard because we arent using any resources to help him along and traded one away even.

    There is nothing I can point at him and say he did wrong, because it can be countered with the fact we are trying to lose. I just dont have massive confidence.

    I guess I'd say some of his moves seem to contradict one another.
     
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  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Personally?

    1) Trading Tunsil and James. Pay them both. Also at least take a look at other linemen before cutting them (like Asiata, etc).

    2) Trading Wake. He's a hometown hero and something we could have rooted for...plus he was relatively cheap.

    3) Trading Stills and Denny WHEN they did. More team leaders that didn't deserve being shipped on a whim.

    4) Penciling in several CFL starters as NFL starters instead of trying to legitimately replace #'s 1-3

    5) Making no effort to replace the above or any of the others cut. For instance, McDonald would have been huge game 1.

    6) Fitzpatrick (QB) infuriates me to no end. Don't bring in a guy at the end of his career, promise him a real opportunity then leave him to the wolves with no offensive line. That irks the $*&# out of me because it's unprofessional.

    7) Selling the "tank" as a guarantee in general...we have no idea if it will work. Yet Ross can't stop using the phrase "sustainable playoff contender". Of course, we all hope it works and all, but the next decade of this franchise's fate rests solely on Grier's shoulders.

    8) Picking up 15+ players after training camp ended. That's admitting that you already messed up and targeted the wrong guys once, so now we're grabbing 15 people who have no clue about the playbook and can't contribute week 1. That's part of why that first game was so ugly....in a lot of cases we were starting the 2nd best person for the job. Why make people go thru camp, earn a spot and then cut them for unproven players you don't know much about? That's very frustrating to me because it shows incompetence.

    9) The product we put on the field in week one was not to the NFL level. There's losing, then there's getting blown out....and then there's what happened to us. It's not acceptable to have a roster of 40+ players who wouldn't make another NFL roster.

    10) Ross and others consistently saying "we're not tanking!" That's calling you an I idiots like we're too dumb to realize that Grier traded away so much, there's no possible way for us to compete. Grier is tanking but doesn't have the balls to actually say it...that rubs be the wrong way.

    11) To compound matters, Grier has been over scouting for a very long time. Maybe he didn't pick Tannehill, Harris, Jordan, Gisecki, etc. but he definitely had a voice in the room on lots of 1st/2nd round busts. I just can't see how someone with no real leadership experience assumes the GM role and wipes out the entire team in a matter of weeks...on the promise that we'll win multiple Super Bowls soon. That's a promise that can't be made and I personally attribute it to snake oil salesmen....just take this pill and your hair will grow back or you'll be cured of cancer.

    Again, you asked why I personally don't love Grier- there ya go. I simply don't want that type of person controlling everything about the organization. It's literally the biggest gamble ever taken in NFL football and Grier does not have the track record to show he's worthy of placing the bet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  34. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    In hindsight, the Rosen trade doesn’t make sense. I don’t think they had any intention of trading Tunsil but they got an offer they couldn’t refuse.

    I totally understand your point about needing to hit on both picks. Unfortunately you just don’t have the luxury of knowing and have to roll the dice. The trade value was there to pull the trigger.
     
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  35. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    There’s simply no way to clean house and refill all those positions in one offseason.

    I’ll try and address some of your bullet points:
    1. I’m torn on this one too. With James, at what point does the FA market get too high where you can no longer overpay just because it’s homegrown?

    2. 100% agree here. Unless it was a mercy move for Wake.

    3. Honestly, Stills is a distraction and you don’t call out your owner like that. Be a man and do it face to face vs over social media. And I could care less about a long snapper.

    4/5/8. See my first statement.

    6. Who cares? He signed the contract and is getting paid millions. I’d take $8m to get beat up for a season. Reality is this OL would have been petty bad even with Tunsil.

    7. Do you die a slow death or take a chance that you can build it up from the ground up? Personally I’m tired of watching this team win 5-9 games and never really being a legit contender. I’m ok with this.

    9. I honestly could care less if we went 3-13 and were competitive in most games vs 0-16 getting blown out. Both scenarios suck. What gets you on top faster?

    10. That’s PR/spin and everyone does it.

    11. Really tough to speculate here. No one knows what he was responsible for, when he was vetoed, when he spoke out against a pick and wasn’t listened.
     
  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Again, I know my opinion is not popular here...but you asked for it.

    Most of us have had zero faith in Ross to make football decisions for a very long time now. Suddenly we're supposed to believe that he found a Moneyball guru inside his own organization...that hasn't been noticed by the league in 19 years? I personally just can't buy that due to our drafts over that span. Where was he for 6+ years when Ross thought Tannehill was a legit franchise QB?

    I really, really hope that I'm wrong...I genuinely do. But I just don't see it.
     
  37. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely, it’s interesting understanding people who don’t necessarily see eye to eye with how I view the situation.

    I’ll say this, you’re spot on about Ross. I have my doubts too.

    Maybe the difference for me is you can believe 2 things, they’re gonna fix this or they’re not. I’ve always been one to err on the side of believing. The one thing that gives me hope this time around is they’re doing it differently. I have no idea if it will work but I knew the old way was fools gold and was happy to see them take a different approach.
     
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  38. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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  39. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    It's basically what they say about a bird in the hand vs two in the bush.

    Also it's high dependent on how the Texans do. If they have a surprising bad year this year ir next...it makes it look better for us.

    I put my gate for the trade aside and I'm kind of just in wait and see mode now. It could be great or bad in the long run.
     
  40. IdrA

    IdrA Rebuilding for Eternity.

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    Well he was the best QB in the league just a couple seasons ago, Julio or not.. but yes he's been average otherwise. But his average is better than Tannehill average.

    I think the main point of the story is look at all the real starting QBs the Fins have passed on, chief among them Drew Brees.

    This 'football' franchise is run like a circus and until we get that sitch sorted we'll never pick good or be good again.
     

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