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David Martin and the 2-TE Set

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Aug 25, 2010.

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  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Forgive the Harry Potter-esque title.

    I can't reiterate this enough. I noted it in my thread about what I've seen from the starters through the two games.

    One of the intriguing stories about this camp and preseason is that David Martin is BACK. And not just back on the roster, he looks fast and good to me so far in preseason. Fluid, he gets up the field quickly to the top of his route, he's tough for linebackers and safeties to handle, and though he may not be a steam roller when facing DLs and big LBs, he can still match the quickness of DBs and shove them into the dirt.

    On that Wildcat play to Ricky Williams that went for 10 yards, called back by a BS holding penalty on Anthony Fasano, that play goes 10 yards because David Martin wiped the outside contain CB off the grid. I don't say neutralize, that was more obliterated, brought him to the ground, and quickly too.

    This was something that David Martin used to be able to do in 2008 that I liked about him. I know you want to say oh well David Martin's a big guy he should be able to bring a small DB to the ground. That's really not the case, because DBs use quickness to their advantage and the bigger you are, the less chance you can match that quickness with your own feet. These guys are strong, too. They're made of wood. You're not going to mow a dude to the ground on initial contact JUST because you outweigh him by 50 lbs.

    What does the 2-TE set bring to the table? Dan Henning loves it. He uses it creatively in both the pass and run game, to create protection for Chad Henne and mismatch opportunities. I'll have you know that in 2008, Chad Pennington's highest QB rating came out of the 2-TE set. And you know what, even with David Martin gone and replaced by Joey "Built Ford Slow" Haynos? The 2-TE set was still Chad Henne's most efficient pass formation. Here are Henne's QB ratings by TE personnel in 2009:

    0 TE: 99 of 172, 1052 YDS, 2 TD, 7 INT, 8 SK - 62.5 QB Rating
    1 TE: 88 of 153, 867 YDS, 2 TD, 3 INT, 9 SK - 69.8 QB Rating
    2 TE: 69 of 99, 799 YDS, 7 TD, 3 INT, 7 SK - 104.7 QB Rating
    3+ TE: 2 of 7, 20 YDS, 0 TD, 0 INT, 0 SK - 39.6 QB Rating

    So the 2-TE set was our most EFFICIENT pass formation. But could we run out of it? Absolutely. In 2009 we did more running out of the 1-TE set but . Here are Ronnie and Ricky's combined rushing by TE personnel in 2009:

    0 TE: 32 runs, 154 yards, 0 TD - 4.8 YPC
    1 TE: 163 runs, 736 yards, 3 TD - 4.5 YPC
    2 TE: 164 runs, 825 yards, 9 TD - 5.0 YPC
    3+ TE: 29 runs, 54 yards, 7 TD - 1.9 YPC

    In 2008, Pennington had his highest QB rating technically with 3+ TEs in the game but that was only 15 pass attempts. Otherwise his highest QB rating was 105.5 out of the 2-TE set, out of which he threw 0 interceptions.

    The reason David Martin can make these sets even more effective is because unlike Haynos, he can do some damage in the passing game. In 2009 Joey Haynos only produced 0.68 receiving yards for every pass snap he was in the game on. This is where someone like David Martin really had him because he produced 1.61 yards for every pass snap he was in the game on. This means that you can add production with pure efficiency in the 2-TE sets.

    The idea here is that you can use the 2-TE and 1-RB or even 2-RB looks to give the QB more time and protect against the package blitzes that are so common in today's NFL. And if you give Henne time, that means giving Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess and Brian Hartline time to get open. With David Martin and Ronnie Brown, you have personnel that can be tough to handle in the passing game for linebackers.

    In 2009 the Dolphins were not very WR-oriented. They used about 2.169 WRs per pass play and that ranked about #24 in the league as far as WR orientation. With Brandon Marshall here and Joey Haynos still the #2 TE, what you were in danger of was having to switch that around to using more 3-WR sets, having a greater WR orientation, and the danger that comes with that is venturing into places that this offense generally hasn't liked to go. What I liked about the Brandon Marshall trade is that his RAC game is so strong and he catches so many short balls, that bringing him in doesn't force this offense to go places they're not comfortable with, they just get the opportunity to super-charge their own attack.

    David Martin coming back brings the same thing. They don't have to opt for all these 3-WR looks instead of 2-TE looks, even though historically the 2-TE look has been more efficient for them.

    Here is the WRs per Pass Play table I researched a few months ago.

    WRs Per Pass
    New York Jets 1.707
    Dallas Cowboys 1.848
    San Diego Chargers 1.872
    New Orleans Saints 1.934
    Minnesota Vikings 2.044
    Tampa Bay Bucs 2.065
    Indianapolis Colts 2.112
    San Francisco 49ers 2.169
    Miami Dolphins 2.169
    Atlanta Falcons 2.201
    Oakland Raiders 2.206
    Green Bay Packers 2.210
    Chicago Bears 2.211
    Baltimore Ravens 2.218
    Jacksonville Jaguars 2.236
    Carolina Panthers 2.245
    Tennessee Titans 2.253
    Kansas City Chiefs 2.324
    Detroit Lions 2.350
    Buffalo Bills 2.361
    Philadelphia Eagles 2.371
    New England Patriots 2.418
    St. Louis Rams 2.428
    Houston Texans 2.435
    Cincinnati Bengals 2.443
    New York Giants 2.455
    Seattle Seahawks 2.532
    Washington Redskins 2.544
    Cleveland Browns 2.554
    Pittsburgh Steelers 2.597
    Denver Broncos 2.677
    Arizona Cardinals 3.140

    You notice something? Some of the BEST offenses in the NFL, the Cowboys, Chargers, Saints, Vikings and Colts...were the least WR oriented. So instead of Miami moving the WRONG direction on this list, downward and having to use more WRs per pass play...they can go with what they're more comfortable with, and use the fact that they're BETTER, even though they're not necessarily DEEPER (after this Camarillo trade).
     
  2. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    Well written, well thought out post. I particularly liked the stats on Henne depending on what TE set the offense is in. Good read and great post:up:
     
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  3. danloc04

    danloc04 New Member

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    Amazing. Really glad to hear that David Martin is looking like his old self, hopefully he can stay healthy.
     
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  4. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    I was thinking the porn spoof with that title :lol:
     
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  5. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Great read.

    There's just no denying. D-Mart brought sexy back to this offense.
     
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  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Top notch stuff CK
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    "Dan Henning loves the two Te set.."

    The man who rode the 1 back offense to a Super Bowl title loves 2 Te sets?

    The real question in my mind is whether or not Henning will actually throw passes to the Te's regularly?
     
  8. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Throw yes, regularly no. Lol.

    Though the "middle is open" now, as Sparano said, so maybe the TEs do see over a thousand yards and 7-10TDs between them this season.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I liked Ronnie and Ricky being involved out of the backfield on Saturday, Henning rarely targets either of them and Ronnie is a fine Receiver .

    What is really crazy Bpk is:

    -Henning is running the mid 80's Redskin offense
    -Nolan is running a type of Fritz Shurmur's late 80's Rams defense
    -Our GM was the Cowboys asst GM
    -Bill Parcells is the VP of the team.

    It is as if we are caught in a late 80's NFCE time warp..
     
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  10. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Run the football and play action
    This thread reinforces my theory
    TE's open in the middle.
    Still bugs me that Henne has better looks moving. He need to develop some more pocket presence.
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    As long as we don't run Counter Tre's the offense will be fine..:D

    Figure Max Protect with two Te's, that is in effect 7 Olineman and Polite and Ronnie can also pass block.

    Hmm..now who would such a formation be directed at..who likes sending full house blitzes on every down..or at least faking them..?
     
  12. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    The only possible annoyance with this is to run the 2 TE set you have to take out either Hartline or one of the best blocking FB's in the game ( Polite ). In the Jags game I thought they pulled hartline and left the FB. So they were running 2 TE, 1 WR, 1 FB, 1 HB. That would seem like pretty run heavy personnel. Not sure how that effects the defense.

    I could ASSume that it would force another defender down into the box and leave only 1 high safety. That would then limit the defense to Man Free, Cover 3 zone, Zone blitzes ( 3 deep and 3 under ), and cover zero blitzes.

    I guess...

    Maybe..?
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    DMart can burn them if they try it mb.

    That formation also means we can run overload formations with Long and Carey on one side, Haynos/Fasano/Polite blocking the backside.
     
  14. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I love the overload idea :P

    I will take CK & and your word for it about Martin. I haven't watched him that much so I am completely ignorant about him.
     
  15. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    For me, a 2-TE set is the best way to complement Marshall's unique skills. This formation will put a lot of pressure on over-the-top safety, who is likely needed to stop the run and help a LB in coverage.

    Perhaps, the most interesting aspect is that it seems to counteract the plans of our division rivals, which spent significantly on CBs to stop 3/4 WR sets. By avoiding a strength of the defense and putting it into uncomfortable groupings, the formation should allow the Dolphins force an aggressive defense to play on the back of its heels. Hopefully, the Jets will be most impacted as they rely on close, tight coverage by their CBs to support a pass rush with 5-7 defenders.

    With Marshall in a single WR formation, he can overwhelm CB with his trifecta of skills:
    • Can You Tackle Him - Less DBs means less converged tackling; resulting in more plays where the CB is the primary tackler.
    • Can You Cover Him - Formation limits coverage options, which will force the CB to chase Marshall all over the field. This should be interesting when Marshall crosses the middle of the field, which will be clogged with larger TEs and LBs.
    • Can You Avoid His Block - Marshall's blocking provides a huge assist to keep defense off-balance and wear it down. It would take a special CB to continue to be effective with run support as they have their hands full with tackling and covering Marshall with limited support.
     
  16. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Who really shot Kennedy CK?
     
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  17. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    This recipe worked quite well in Week 5 last year.

    Now add M&M's (Marshall and Martin) for seasoning. :D
     
  18. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    Man, nice addition to this post! And so true... It's a TRUE smash-mouth offense in this formation ala Hines Ward/Steelers of a couple years ago for that SB run.

    Not just the JESTS as some assume though. Who started the swarming defense with blitzing looks? The Patsies...
     
  19. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Maybe I am missing something in the post but why does the over the top safety need to worry about stopping the run? The defense could double cover Marshall with a CB and the over the top safety and still have a man advantage in the box to stop the run, I believe.

    I do comprehend the helping LB in coverage portion. :P
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Is that really such a bad thing?

    Brian Hartline is not T.J. Houshmandzadeh, at least not yet. He's got to earn his spot on the field.

    And yeah, the heavy packages with 2-TEs and 2-RBs is pretty run heavy, but at the same time, it can create spacing, opportunity, mismatches, and time for people to get open.
     
  21. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great post Ck. I was actually hoping we would be opening up the offense a bit with the inclusion of Marshall with more 3 WR sets, but according to your work it seems we were more proficient with the boring 2 TE set.

    Welcome back Martin.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw7CM0FJPCs"]YouTube- David Martin TD[/ame]
     
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  22. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I don't know if it's a bad thing. I am not that educated in the ways of defense to really understand how it affect them.

    I am ignorant on this topic. But if you just say 2 TE, 2 RB, 1 WR it doesn't sound like an explosive formation. It sounds like a grind'em out formation.

    That being said I read and article or heard a podcast on ESPN that suggested this very thing. Miami should use a heavy run formation that dictated a safety down into the box, and that would allow marshall some space and limit the number of coverages the defense could play. While also keeping with another strength of the Dolphins, the power running game. So I am excited about that formation.

    I would be/am less excited about the other way to get Martin on the field, the 2WR, 2 TE, 1 RB set. I just hate to pull Polite out of the game at any time, other than 3rd and long. I just have a non homosexual man crush on Polite :P. Love that guy.
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, that is where David Martin enters the picture, a fmr Wr, he can get open down the field so if the Safety moves into the box, Martin runs a seam route off of playaction and the Safety is caught in no man's land.

    Ricky and Ronnie are also good at running routes down the sideline.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    What stands out is how much BETTER Chad Henne was from 2-TE sets. Look at those statistics. He doesn't just have a higher QB rating out of 2-TE sets because of a better TD/INT ratio or something like that.

    He completed 70% of his passes out of the 2-TE set, as opposed to 58% and 58% for 0- and 1-TE sets, respectively.

    His average yards per completion was 11.6 out of the 2-TE set, as opposed to 10.6 and 9.9 out of 0-TE and 1-TE sets, respectively. Keep in mind this is yards PER COMPLETION, and is not at all subject to completion percentage (unlike yards per attempt).

    His TD percentage was 7.1% out of the 2-TE set, as opposed to 1.2% and 1.3% for 0- and 1-TE sets, respectively.

    His INT percentage was of course 0.0% out of the 2-TE set because he didn't throw any picks, as opposed to 4.1% and 2.0% for 0- and 1-TE sets, respectively.

    That's overwhelming evidence that the 2-TE just works better for Chad Henne, for whatever reason. Maybe it's because it gives him more time. Maybe it's because it forces a defense into more predictable looks. Maybe it's the personnel we had. Maybe it's just the way Dan Henning calls his offenses.

    For whatever reason, the 2-TE set accentuates Chad Henne's game, helps him be an efficient quarterback...and that's very important.
     
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  25. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    two TE set is a viable option w/ Martin returning healthy
    one more weapon in the offensive arsenal for Henning to employ
    the more looks you can present the better the opportunities you get
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It sounds like it, I realize. But, you have to look at the previous effectiveness. CNNSI's stat splits say that in formations with 0 or 1 WR on the field, Chad Henne was 39 of 58 for 409 yards, 4 TDs and 1 INT. That's a 10.5 yards per completion average. His full season average yards per completion was 10.5 yards. So going with only 1 WR didn't really put a damper on the offense's ability to create a big play...and with Brandon Marshall, I imagine it can only get better.

    I hadn't seen that but I am glad they've come to the same conclusion I have. It's nice to know that other people are thinking along the same lines.

    I love him too and he'll get his chances believe me. BUT in 2009, Ronnie Brown averaged 5.3 yards per carry from a Singleback Formation. He averaged only 2.7 yards per carry from the I-Formation.

    And this has been a consistent trait in Ronnie Brown's game. In 2008, he averaged 5.1 YPC as a lone setback, and only 3.8 YPC from the I Formation. He just doesn't do as well following a fullback. He does better with a deeper set and the ability to read an open space and pick his holes better.

    Ricky Williams on the other hand, is a more natural I Formation RB. Always has been. He averaged 4.7 yards per carry from an I Formation, and 4.7 yards per carry from a Singleback Formation, in 2009. But in 2008 he was much better in the I Formation at 4.4 YPC than as a Lone Setback where he averaged 3.3 YPC.

    So it's an interesting sort of array of talents, weaving it all together and such. I think that when we approach the field with 2-TE sets and 1-RB, then obviously you'd steer toward Ronnie being that lone setback most of the time and that would be beneficial. When you come on with the heavier package with just 1-WR then I think you steer toward Ricky Williams a little bit more.
     
  27. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Wow. I had no clue about Ronnie and Ricky stats w/o FB vs w/ FB. Very interesting. Thanks for the information and post CK.
     
  28. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think that the 2 - TE set is a better fit for the kind of offensive team we want to be. My guess is that Sparano's vision is for a team that beats the snot out of you with the run game and then gouges you for chunk yardage. Basically, the '72 Dolphins adjusted to the more modern game (more pass than run). I think that our strengths poses a great dilemma for a defense in that formation. IMO our strengths are an OL and running game that was 4th overall (actually 1st until the injuries to Brown and the OL) and Marshall whom most rate as a top 5 WR. The defense has to choose between bringing the extra guy into the box or using the extra guy to cover Marshall. Either way the defense is at a a disadvantage somewhere. Now you can still bring 9 in the box and double cover Marshall if neither of the TEs can threaten the seam, but with Martin there you can't.

    I did find it interesting that RB was so much better in a single set. I've always felt that but had never seen the numbers that verified it. I think that explains why the WC is so much more effective with RB as the trigger.
     
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  29. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    He was merely Sanchez outside of the 2 TE sets to put it bluntly.
     
  30. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Outstanding posts/thread CK, thanks for the effort and for sharing it with us. I learned a lot from this thread. Welcome back DMart!
     
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  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, the one problem is whether or not the Defense will allow the offense to run that scheme, if we are down two Td's in the first half, that probably won't be the optimal situation on offense.
     
  32. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think if it was the first half then you stick with your game plan b/c there's still plenty of time.

    And IMO people over-reacted to our defensive issues last season. The team was actually one of the best in the league at stopping opponents on third down. They were tied for 4th in that category. Where they struggled was at allowing the big plays. In that category (20+ plays) they were 30th. I think that better S play in a scheme that used a true FS would solve most of those issues. And that's without considering Nolan and upgrades at ILB, DL and growth from two rookie CBs.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The Ronnie Brown from singleback has been brought up before, in the past it's been one of the reasons he's criticized, because he's not a "natural born" running back so to speak.
     
  34. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's really fascinating to me.

    But it does remind me of that MNF Jets game and what the blocking scheme did to the Jets front-7. For some reason, it appears PFF has deleted their "player participation" tab, but out of 67 total snaps, Anthony Fasano saw 64, Joey Haynos 55, and Lousaka Polite 47.
     
  35. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    great stuff as always ck.....thanks man
     
  36. dolphan117

    dolphan117 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Great to hear Martin really looks good in pre-season. It made a lot of sense to bring him back but there is always that question of how much he has left in the tank and whether he is fully recovered.
     
  37. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Are these stats based on 2TE sets or just packages which involve 2TEs? I'm asking because sometimes they would split Martin out wide or in the slot.

    So if you have 2TEs with Fasano lined up next to Carey, Martin at wide out, Hartline at wide out and Marshall in the slot. It's looks more like a 3WR set with a single back.

    If the defense is in a base 3-4/4-3, they would have a huddle look at the offense that initially seems like a 2TE set. But then based on personel groupings and the short time the defense would have to make substitutions, Marshall should have a mismatch with a LB or SS once in formation.
     
  38. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    What's the Over/Under for TD receptions by Martin this season?

    I'll say 2.
     

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