Creating a big and powerful defensive line, a case for Glenn Dorsey in a new role

Good post man. Frankly, I think we have several directions we can go, and maybe none of them will be bad. Dorsey is, simply put, a player-a playmaker, the kind of guy we have been lacking for a long time. Id like to see how well he can hold up against a power rushing team with huge interior OL, but really I think he would be fine, hes just that good.
Good post :)

Very insightful post. Thank you.

Thanks guys...

Another little bit to add.

What to do with Matt Roth? I'd like to hear some opinion from guys who have some insight into the 3-4 defense.

1- Keep him bulked up around 285 to play LE in the 3-4. Positives: One less player to get for the defensive line. A beneficial guy to have on passing downs.
Negatives: This position requires a guy who can hold his ground, which Roth has never proven that he's capable of doing against a RG and RT or a RT and TE in some cases. It's not really what he was born to do and he was worn down pretty easily this year.

2- Move Roth to OE
While not an overwhelmingly fast player, Roth slimmed down to his college weight or around 268-270 is a guy who I could envision running in the 4.7s. There are plenty of ROLBs who run in the 4.7s. Matt Roth has solid quickness and might be able to cover as Jason Taylor does on some occasions

Pros: Matt Roth is back in his element and can chase down running backs, rush the passers, use his quickness to squeeze through the cracks of a defense and sack the QB instead of trying to hold up against guys that are flat out huge at right tackle.

Negatives: The coverage part is always worrisome, but relatively minor considering it's 3-4 ROLB not LOLB in this scenario. ROLB has to provide consistent and constant pressure, which Roth hasn't provided in the pros. Also Quentin Moses and Jason Taylor currently would occupy this spot and I haven't given up on either of them. Moses never showed any cover ability so I'd hate to move him to LOLB where he'd have to do so consistently.

3- Matt Roth to LOLB

Pros: Roth would consistently provide a balance against the tight end in the 3-4 and might even allow Porter to move inside where he can constantly provide a pass rushing presence that Thomas could not. The team's size on the front seven would be upgraded seven fold by such a move.

Negatives: I worry about Roth if he gets singled up against a quick RB in this scenario or an agile tight end. While I envision Roth as a trimmed down version of his current self, few teams namely the Patriots have been able to move guys with no cover ability in college like Mike Vrabel (courtesy of the Steelers originally) to the LOLB position. One thing's for sure it would definitely stop the run....

I'm not going to list something silly though like Roth to LILB or RILB because he does not have the quickness and is a bit too tall to learn such an important position, especially RILB which requires constant coverage of the tight end.

"Jajmando wrote:

One of the biggest problems this past season was that Miami's defensive line was continously pushed back and was unable to protect its mediocre linebackers. Fixing that is I'm sure Bill's priority #1 (please bare with me Keith, I know you've seen this).

1. Problem 1: Vonnie Holliday can be worn down inside at the one-gap position. Next year he'll be positioned slightly more to the outside but I'd prefer it if he were to be placed at LE in the 3-4. That way he could start in front of Roth. Holliday at 6-5, 288 can play that position well and can replace what Carter was to Roth.

2. Problem 2: Inside Miami will only have Rodrique Wright at this point and a second defensive tackle is necessary. Randy Starks among a couple of other candidates would be a perfect fit. He's a backup for the Titans and for a starting job would probably come here. He's 6-3, 315 which is actually GREAT size for a 3-4 DE and yes he can play that position being extremely athletic and still young at 24 years old.

3. Problem 3: You've solved the 3-4 DE positions with four capable players in all, however now you turn to the worst problem at nose tackle which was abused all season long. Soliai is a keeper but most likely he's a backup. Continously I've heard that Glenn Dorsey is undersized for the nose tackle position. I find that to be questionable at the least. Guys like Vince Wilfork and Kelly Gregg are around 320-325 lbs. Sure there's Jamal Williams who's absolutely huge but he's rare. There isn't another guy like him in the league. Even Ngata players 3-4 RE with Gregg at NT. Nose tackle requires more than just pure size. Dorsey can easily support another 10-15 lbs without a problem in his first year. I don't think he'd lose his advantage at all. Second, playing nose tackle is not just about size it's about leverage and ability to beat the double team. Dorsey has that in spades. I envision him as a pass rushing nose tackle, the first of his kind who can play the nose tackle position on long downs and move inside to 3-4 RE to give Starks a break whenever necessary on run downs.

4. Problem 4: Depth is always key and you need seven 3-4 defensive linemen. I'd like a guy like a Jason Ferguson or even an Ian Scott to be added that can play two-gap positions all over the defensive line, specifically nose tackle if need be.

I expect Bill to attack the DL's holes just like this.

KB21 came up with the suggestion that Porter may be moved inside similar to how the Patriots moved Vrabel inside for a while. That might be a prudent move considering the lack of MLBs available in free agency this year, but it should only be done if a SLB is acquired. The ILB class this year is quite deep. Beau Bell and Jonathan Goff would be ideal fits in the 3-4.

I hope that posters will have a little more patience with Glenn Dorsey mock drafts. Remember a defensive line never has to have fixed position players. Players can be rotated in and out, depending on scenario, health, and the front they're facing. Versatility like that of Glenn Dorsey is a plus not a problem. Pidgeon holing him on all downs as an undersized nose tackle is unfair.

Don't take this to mean that Chris Long doesn't have his pluses either. He would also go a long way towards fixing the Dolphin defense.

i see u post on footballsfuture as well correct? cuz i saw this exact post there if im not mistakening.

"sweeper wrote:

i see u post on footballsfuture as well correct? cuz i saw this exact post there if im not mistakening.

Ya that's me. I prefer to post here, but I was having some trouble doing so until today. I plan on probably posting here far more often now so I just lopped my stuff from there fixing a couple mistakes. The Roth part is completely new.

Tiny little thing to consider. Matt Roth at 272 ran a 4.77 as his best time before the draft. Now I know the 40 is not the tell all test, but it tells you that Roth is more than in the range of straight-line speed of other OLBs if he loses weight to around 255.

Note that he's played linebacker before in college, specifically MLB even but it's been a while.

The reason I bring him up is that it seems a waste to me for him to play 3-4 LE anymore or LE in general.

I like what you say but I really want to see some improvement on offense by the end of the first draft day..., do we ever need play-makers..., typically NTs are consuming interior Olinemen from your "play-makers"... that's all... that's a lot of committed money to hand a guy who will be double teamed at 295 pds his entire career..., we saw what happened at college his foes got creepy..., can he avoidf the creepy hits... can Dorsey carry 30-40 more pounds...? Will he even need to...? Remains to be seen...

I accept BP/Irelands judgment..., even it is Dorsey

i think Roth should lose 30 pounds and become an OLB. he has amazing ability to rush the passer and run down runningbacks...but when he has the big ole' OT in his way, he has some issues. if Roth drops 30 pounds, and gets back to the size he was at Iowa, he can be an OLB and that would help a lot. we wont have to worry about drafting an OLB (unless Thomas quite or gets cut, then Crowder moves inside)

Funny thing is, I don't know if anyone else noticed but the last game against cincy Roth actually stood up at OLB for a couple of plays. I for one do not think he can be successful there long term but who knows?

Back to Dorsey. I'm still torn between him & C. Long. Both can and will be disruptive.

"Itsdahumidity wrote:

Funny thing is, I don't know if anyone else noticed but the last game against cincy Roth actually stood up at OLB for a couple of plays. I for one do not think he can be successful there long term but who knows?

Back to Dorsey. I'm still torn between him & C. Long. Both can and will be disruptive.

Choosing between Long and Dorsey is a wonderful quandry for us to have. I go back and forth on which I prefer. The one thing I have noticed from watching Dorsey is that he is a big time facilitator. That is when he is in and playing at his capability he raises the level of the entire front seven. You can see it in both the facts that the offense has to dedicate so many men to keeping the inside of the line blocked, and also in the intensity of the other players. He has more than a bit of the "Michael Jordan" syndrome of raising the level of play of his teammates.

"Mrtree wrote:

Choosing between Long and Dorsey is a wonderful quandry for us to have. I go back and forth on which I prefer. The one thing I have noticed from watching Dorsey is that he is a big time facilitator. That is when he is in and playing at his capability he raises the level of the entire front seven. You can see it in both the facts that the offense has to dedicate so many men to keeping the inside of the line blocked, and also in the intensity of the other players. He has more than a bit of the "Michael Jordan" syndrome of raising the level of play of his teammates.

That in itself is a HUGE + for Dorsey. I am going to try to focus in on him tonight (in between the times taking care of my son).

BTW this was an excellent original post.

I'm curious about Roth too. I have some reservations about him at DE if we go full time 3-4. Do you guys really think he can be an OLB?

"Mrtree wrote:

BTW this was an excellent original post.

I'm curious about Roth too. I have some reservations about him at DE if we go full time 3-4. Do you guys really think he can be an OLB?

He's currently around 275 in weight I'm guessing and would probably run about a 4.77 with solid quickness. Around 255 yes, I think he does have the natural skills to play LOLB. He is more then capable in the open field as far as tackling and getting to the play. That's his skill actually....

As far as coverage goes, hey if Mike Vrabel can do it I suppose Roth can. So to give you an idea of the Super Big front as I'd like to call it:

LE- Holliday, Wright
NT- Ferguson, Soliai
RE- Dorsey, Starks
LOLB- Roth, Wright
LILB- Porter, Spragan
RILB- Crowder, Pope
ROLB- Taylor, Moses

To the guy who said that we should spent picks on the offensive front specifically the interior. That's fine, give Bill two picks and I think he can fix this defensive front seven.

I compared Matt Roth as far as his physical measurables versus a much smaller linebacker, Lawrence Timmons.

Now at 6-1, 234 Timmons best time was a 4.63 in the 40. His shuttle was a 4.32 and his vertical was 35 inches. Roth's best time was a 4.36 in the shuttle at 278 pounds, his 40 was a 4.77 and his vertical was 33 inches.

Now it's really difficult to project weight loss but I think it's conceivable that at say 255 pounds Roth could run a 4.7 flat, a better shuttle time than Timmons which by the way is more important and have around a 34-35 inch vertical.

So physically Roth is there, it's just does he remember how to cover at all?

"Jajmando wrote:

To the guy who said that we should spent picks on the offensive front specifically the interior. That's fine, give Bill two picks and I think he can fix this defensive front seven.

We need more than a "bone" on the Oline is all..., finish the line..., line up and beat your opponent down... play some WANY BALL as some like to call it... Exactly what people are calling on the Jags to do to the Pats this Sunday...:woot:

so we know for a fact that the fins will run a straight 3-4 next season?

i love dorsey but i wouldn't want to draft him first overall then play him at a position other than his natural best.

if his optimum position is tackle in a 4-3, then we better be playing a 4-3, or a hybrid 3-4 that is often in 4-3. fit the scheme to suit your personnel.

"circumstances wrote:

so we know for a fact that the fins will run a straight 3-4 next season?

i love dorsey but i wouldn't want to draft him first overall then play him at a position other than his natural best.

if his optimum position is tackle in a 4-3, then we better be playing a 4-3, or a hybrid 3-4 that is often in 4-3. fit the scheme to suit your personnel.

I don't expect Parcells to completely just give up on all Dolphin 4-3 alignments. In fact he'll probably realize that the best defense the Dolphins have had was the hybrid front with Taylor moving around (I can envision Moses and Roth doing well in this role also).

In that kind of front Dorsey will have to fight off the left guard primarily and once in a while the left tackle as well but he should be just fine.

Dorsey's natural position per say is to be determined. I think he could play McFarland's old position, Sapp's old position, or on the Fins Holliday's current position about ten times better than Vonnie (again he should be moved to LE).

These are great posts, Jajmando. Your original post and the post about Roth are excellent ideas for using our current talent and adding the biggest weapon from the draft in a useful way. I'm with you that Roth shouldn't play DE, he needs to drop back to the lower weight and OLB would be the way to go.

I think you nailed it. Our #1 priority should be run defense, where we were dead last in the NFL. Because our run defense was so bad, the secondary had to come up to help which allowed us to get burned. Glenn Dorsey and these other changes you mentioned are the answer. We need to add a LB and a CB from the draft as well.

I think Dorsey will be great at NT, and will hopefully for the next decade be the center of our new defense.

Thanks for the posts!

:thumbup:

man these are some great posts on this thread. I hope you keep posting stuff like this

"Jajmando wrote:

He's currently around 275 in weight I'm guessing and would probably run about a 4.77 with solid quickness. Around 255 yes, I think he does have the natural skills to play LOLB. He is more then capable in the open field as far as tackling and getting to the play. That's his skill actually....

As far as coverage goes, hey if Mike Vrabel can do it I suppose Roth can. So to give you an idea of the Super Big front as I'd like to call it:

I dont got the quote, but Matt Roth claimed he was 295 coming into the season, and susposedly in the 280-285 range the year before.

I dont think you can just assume Roth can play in coverage if Mike Vrabel can. Vrabel's been a linebacker for a long time now. Matt Roth was an MLB his first year in college, but got switched because he got out of position too much.

I think the best chance Miami has for salvaging Roth is going if Rex Ryan gets the DC job. He'd get put out of position in a pure 2-gap 3-4 like Parcells and alot of his "guys" run. I think he needs to be a 4-3 end, and Ryan uses enough 4-3, 46, and 4-man passing formation fronts that he could be useful. I think we'd also potentially see Roth playing a big, rushing down blitzing ILB, as Ryan occasionally had 340 pound Haloti Ngata do.

"Disgustipate wrote:

I dont got the quote, but Matt Roth claimed he was 295 coming into the season, and susposedly in the 280-285 range the year before.

I dont think you can just assume Roth can play in coverage if Mike Vrabel can. Vrabel's been a linebacker for a long time now. Matt Roth was an MLB his first year in college, but got switched because he got out of position too much.

I think the best chance Miami has for salvaging Roth is going if Rex Ryan gets the DC job. He'd get put out of position in a pure 2-gap 3-4 like Parcells and alot of his "guys" run. I think he needs to be a 4-3 end, and Ryan uses enough 4-3, 46, and 4-man passing formation fronts that he could be useful. I think we'd also potentially see Roth playing a big, rushing down blitzing ILB, as Ryan occasionally had 340 pound Haloti Ngata do.

What makes me wonder is why the Dolphins are even considering an attempt at a pure 3-4 defense when their personnel is pretty far from even being effective in that system and the draft lately has assisted teams looking for 4-3 personnel.

Last I checked 4-3 defenses can win Superbowls.

couple things Porter playing inside NO WAY he is a Rush LB period he played out of position this year as a SLB and moving him inside would make little to no sense.

assuming no additions were made to the LB corps I think you have a better chance with
Thomas and Crowder or if Thomas leaves Crowder and Spragen..if no true ILB was added.

As for Dorsey I dont like him at #1 I get he maybe the choice but to me the first player in the draft should be a special player I dont care how good Dorsey is or can be his best fit is as a 4-3 tackle even if he can play DE or NT in 3-4 front his talents IMO wont be maximized.

As for Roth I agree with many posters that his best chance is as an OLB maybe even as a Rover LB sorta like AJ Duhe(play him all over the front up/down..inside/outside) the problam with Roth and the comparisons to Vrable is athletisim Vrable was a TE, Roth to me doesnt exibit the same athletisim but he could be used much like Ryan used Adalious Thomas and Jason Johnson in Baltimore.

One other point I'd like to make here regarding Miami's poor run defense in football at every level it not simply about talent defense and more directly RUN defense is about ATTITUDE...WANT TO and this season this defensive team lacked the want to.

Holliday actually plays at around 275 pounds. He is NOT 288 so he is even smaller then his listed weight. We need a 300+ pounder as an inside guy on the d-line.

I don't know where you've heard that Holliday plays at 275, but that's ridiculous if true. If he really is that light then no wonder the defense was pushed around all year.

To the poster who said I don't care if Dorsey can play well in the 3-4 or not, that's like saying hey I'll take the lesser player just so he fits perfectly rather than the guy who's better regardless of what system he's playing in. I could care less if doesn't perfectly maximize his talent, which is a lie since three technique is very similar to a 4-3 DT compared to NT and 3-4 LE. Besides Dorsey will be around for 12+ years, Parcells who knows really...

IMO the decision at the top this year is even greater than the decision of who is our VP of football operations/HC/etc....

Gotta get this one right.

is it just me or am i the only one who thinks Dorsey looks huge on camera, he made a great play tonight in the game, he hit the running back in the backfield, then, one of his teammates was talkin some BS to one of the ohio state players right after the play, so as soon as dorsey nails the running back he gets up then grabs his teammate and takes him back to the huddle, it was freakin beautiful.

"To the poster who said I don't care if Dorsey can play well in the 3-4 or not, that's like saying hey I'll take the lesser player just so he fits perfectly rather than the guy who's better regardless of what system he's playing in. I could care less if doesn't perfectly maximize his talent, which is a lie since three technique is very similar to a 4-3 DT compared to NT and 3-4 LE."

Then you would be making the same mistake the Raiders made asking Warren Sapp to play in a 3-4 defense not until the went back to a 4-3 did Sapp return to his pro bowl ways.

Your assumption that just because a player is talented he can be a great player in any system I feel is flawed, players excell at certain things and coaching is about maximizing each players talent so to some degree yes you take lesser "overall" talent if a player does something particularly well ie Keith Traylor playing in the league for 17 years as a NT after entering the as a LB because he can play run defense.
To farther my point why wouldnt a team like Indy or TB sign a great DT Grady Jackson to sure up their DL because he doesnt fit their scheme much like miami's D under Wanny Jax'ville like BIG DT,,,,one other thing the 3 technique is not played by the NT in a true 3-4 the NT's job is to take up double teams and free up LB's a 3 tech. is upfield pressure their is my friend a difference.