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Coyle starting to understand..I think.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.miamidolphins.com/news/a...ght-Ends/a7fbeea3-da74-4d75-b959-4796ce05cf54

    Eliminate the weapon..allow other athletes to execute their job.

    Spread him out, let him cover Olsen, and let him spy cam when wake abuses that Carolina tackle, newton will instinctively step up or look for an escape route, that's where the two can work together, flush, and finish..
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mods you could merge this in one if the panther threads if you want, didn't know if the panther fans wanted to read stuff like this.
     
  3. juju.simba

    juju.simba New Member

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    i use jordan spying cam newton ! use odrich at re and starks and soliai ,them 3 should be stout enough vs there 3 way run attack of williams,stewart,tolbert
     
  4. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Essentially, Jordan should have been playing linebacker all along.
     
  5. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Jersey
    Jordan as a linebacker is the way to go. I love watching him freelance behind the D-line. Someone gave him the nickname praying mantis and it's perfect, you can do so many things with him at LB.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes sir..could you expound on that?
     
  7. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I like his willingness to eliminate targets and creating big plays be it by sacking the QB or eliminating targets, and he gives credit where it's due.

    I also like that he is seeing the field in regards to playing time. We need versatile guys and we have a few, and I'm happy they're getting on the field.
     
  8. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Also, having him in the game may allow them to let Jones freelance more, as he is better when he freelances than he is when he is put into coverage.
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "freelance".... That's the key word....that why I call him the freestyler....that's how you get the best out of this young player while you develop him..This is how he can make his mark in the NFL..reading and reacting...with explosive measurables and unprecedented range.

    I'm not sure even he understands that he has Lawrence Taylor potential.
     
  10. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Well, he's better in coverage than any of our linebackers, and he's also better at putting pressure on the quarterback than any of our linebackers. The way he played at Oregon, his game was prototypical for a linebacker. I said when he was drafted that he would be great as a SAM backer in a hybrid scheme.
     
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  11. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Exactly. Losing Dansby and Burnett not only downgraded the LB group but it also weakened one of your best defenders in Reshad Jones because now his assignments are different.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    So with guys we already have would you: Jordan SAM, Ellerbe MIKE, ????WILL (Misi? Jenkins? Someone else?)
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He has the skillset to take up more space and allow others to cover less, basically the old cliché of he can make everybody better.

    Great point about Jones..that's probabaly what has happened..we had better cover linebackers last year..makes sense.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Shouldn't we redesign this defense around this skillset.?..
     
  15. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And really, the Dolphins defensive personnel are probably a much better fit for a 3-4 IMO.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I do not agree. I think they are better fit for a hybrid type defense.

    They don't have the linebackers for a 3-4.
     
  17. Who comes off the field to make room for Jordan?
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Any number of people.

    Rotate!
     
  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Typically, Kevin Coyle(and the Mike Zimmer run defense he's emulating) have used former 3-4 OLB type players as the SAM in the defense. Manny Lawson, James Harrison, Koa Misi, etc. I was surprised that Jordan wasn't in that role, and an edge rusher in Nickel
     
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  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think the problems with Ellerbe/Wheeler are either assuaged or complicated if you'd move to a 3-4 or 3-4 oriented defense.

    Misi, Vernon, and Jordan would all benefit from playing 3-4 OLB, I think. Wake wouldn't really benefit, but I don't think he'd be hurt either.
     
  21. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    I agree with this right now. I think they've got 3 of the 4 spots you'd need a 3-4 defense filled. I think the one thing they currently lack is a thumper in the middle. They don't have a Karlos Dansby, Brandon Spikes, or someone of a similar size to stop the run.

    Not directed at you, but before anyone asks, no I don't think Koa Misi is that type of player, and now his extension seems superfluous if Dion Jordan is going to eat into his snaps, as Dion Jordan should.

    If I had my druthers and Miami was running a 3-4 defense, I'd have Jordan and Wake on the outside - you can matchup Jordan however you want. I'd have Olivier Vernon as my top backup at either. In the middle, I think you've got that "Moe" spot filled with Dannell Ellerbe, as he played it in Baltimore. Jelani Jenkins would be my top sub as a coverage specialist.

    The open spot would be filled by, just me spitballing here, a guy like Shayne Skov or A.J. Johnson via the draft, or you could pay Brandon Spikes if New England lets him loose.

    And, to boot, you can still get guys like Olivier Vernon and Jelani Jenkins an ample amount of snaps in sub packages. Guys it probably lops off the roster who are currently on it at present would be Koa Misi (too expensive for depth) and Derrick Shelby (bad schematic fit). It might also be a boon for a guy like Josh Kaddu who keeps bouncing between the 53 man roster and practice squad. I think you could still keep one of the three between Freeny, Spitler, and Trusnik for special teams purposes and emergency depth.
     
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  22. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    I don't think it needs to be re-designed; they've just been horrifically slow as a staff figuring out how pieces work. Then, they ended up extending Koa Misi based on his 2012 season, which essentially is a stop gap to where Dion Jordan SHOULD have been playing all along. Olivier Vernon's play also clouds the issue.

    In 2014, if the same scheme is in place, I would highly expect Dion Jordan to be starting over both of those two.
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I don't think Vernon or Jordan would benefit from playing a straight 3-4. I do not like Wake AT ALL as an outside linebacker in a 3-4.

    By the defense Miami has, I think a hybrid, never know what is coming slashing defense is best for their personal.
     
  24. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    I'll try and post parts of this over the weekend, but I have an old excerpt from a coaches manual that details Jack Dooley's "Eagle" defense that he ran at Virginia Tech. It was originally a concept run out of the "50" and "50 shade" defenses (what we now know as the 3-4 front). It's been filtered into more and more looks and ultimately, I personally would consider it to be the overarching concept behind these hybrid defenses.

    Nick Saban used it sparingly in Miami until he figured out Yeremiah Bell was better than Tavares Tillman, but he's used it a lot at Alabama with guys like Mark Barron, Robert Lester, and Vinny Sunseri. Seattle two years ago ran it pretty much exclusively, they've backed off of it more this year. Pittsburgh, at the height of Troy Polamalu's reign, ran it a lot out of their 3-4 scheme (probably the truest connection to Dooley's defense I've seen). Miami ran a very similar look to it quite a bit the 2nd half of last season (though Miami's is a bit different given Wake's propensity to rush exclusively from the defense's left).

    The principle states that you want to have your best pass-rusher, coverage linebacker, and best overall safety lined up on the same side of the field every snap. Miami did that last year a lot with Wake, Burnett, and Jones. It's faltered this year because Philip Wheeler's had lapses in coverage and they've played Wake in techniques tighter to the center than he has in the past. Reshad Jones has been pretty awful at times as well, so it just hasn't clicked.

    I'll see if I can scan some of it in over the weekend and make a separate thread about it. I just think if Miami's willing to make a transition to the 3-4, the benefit of having 3, maybe 4 guys in Wake, Jordan, Vernon, and potentially Misi that all play on the edges outweighs the value of having [overpaid] guys like Ellerbe and Wheeler playing on the inside that can blitz.
     
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  25. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    stay with Wheeler temporarily since he's under contract while giving Jenkins another year to see how he progresses before throwing a higher draft pick at the position. The bigger question is how to handle RDE. I'd rather go big and athletic there, someone capable of 2-gapping like a 3-4 DE rather than a traditional 7 technique end.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    No kidding. Some of us have said that since the day he was drafted.
     
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  27. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    Draft prospects/free agents I like that'd fit that bill (assuming you're keep Odrick as a 3 technique if Randy Starks walks):

    Tyson Jackson - Kansas City Chiefs
    Brandon Deaderick - Jacksonville Jaguars
    Jason Hatcher - Dallas Cowboys (I think he's injured)
    Stephon Tuitt - Notre Dame (going to have to burn a 1st round pick)
    Ed Stinson - Alabama
    Deandre Coleman - California
    Dominique Easley - Florida (injured)
    Taylor Hart - Oregon
    Jason Bromley - Syracuse
    Kamal Johnson - Temple (off-field issues)
    Tyrone Ezell - Pitt
    Josh Mauro - Stanford

    I'd probably cut my list of draftable guys off after Easley or Hart. I'd consider Johnson, but you have to do your due diligence on the off-field stuff. I'd tab him as a high-priority UDFA.

    As an aside, I think out of any of the big contracts Miami gave out this season, if you're going to get rid of one, Wheeler's is the most palatable. It's not desirable, but it's palatable.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    In coverage, I think Ellerbe is at least as good as Dansby or Burnett. Wheeler is worse than either.
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Yes. I liked Jordan as a player but was worried we'd just put him at DE and expose his flaws while minimizing his strengths. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happened.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I do not agree that is exactly what happened. What weakness was shown? How was his pass rushing strength minimized?
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I said when he was drafted, he should be used as a LB, standing up, moved around, used in coverage. I was shot down by all those who said being the 3rd pick he needs to be a pass rushing end.
    Before the Pats game, Panda made a thread suggesting Jordan cover Gronk. I concurred and gave sound reasons why, and was laughed at in the responses.
    Now, this is all being talked about like it is some kind of novel revelation???
    Fcuk this thread. It just pisses me off. It isn't a good idea unless the right person here suggests it??? :pity:
     
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  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Not the right person, just not you.
     
  33. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Not so much shown on the field, but the supposed reason for his not getting on the field very much (200 snaps compared to almost 600 for Vernon) is weakness in run defense. I haven't really noticed that when he's played, but that's the excuse. And if you are expecting him to go one on one with an OT that is 75-80 lbs heavier on run downs as a rookie who is largely first adapting to a true DE role, you are boudn to be disappointed. His pass rush strength is minimized (1) by his simply not being on the field much of the time and (2) when he is on the field, the offense knows he is rushign and where he is rushing from. I think he could be more effective/efficient if moved around more and with some element of surprise as to whether he's rushing or dropping into coverage. And pass rushing wasn't the only strength I was referring to -- his movement skills are a great asset in coverage and as a linebacker in run defense where he's not lined up straight up on an OT but instead has some space to maneuver and track down ballcarriers.
     
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  34. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    You were definitely not alone in saying he is better suited to OLB around draft time.
    http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...hins-defense&p=2057564&highlight=#post2057564
     
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  35. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    You move Misi to MLB, Wheeler becomes a rotational sub, and Ellerbe the WLB. Misi would then be able to take on blockers inside, easing the burden on Ellerbe outside. Jordan would go toe-to-toe with TEs and be used the best way possible.

    Marvin I understand what you're saying (that was your name right?). That's always the case. One guy might say it, but the rest don't believe it. Is what it is. Keep making good suggestions:up:
     
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  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    which is why we should employ a mixed front like Seattle does so that Wake can continue playing with his hand in the dirt and so that we can essentially run a 3-4 on the right side with Jordan at OLB and a DT/DE hybrid at RE who can reduce down to a quality pass rushing tackle in nickel. We already have Odrick at our disposal who can play both 3-tech DT and hybrid RE, so if we can address Oline in FA, I think we should look in the draft for best player available among DT and players with hybrid RE potential, and whichever position that is [let's say it's DT] then Odrick would man the remaining position [RE in this case].
     
  37. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    These are my 3 favorites. Think a healthy Easley would be ideal b/c of how great he would be as an interior nickel rusher and wouldn't cost us a 1st rounder but his injury history worries me. I love Hart's length and versatility however. An intriguing player he is.

    The other guy I'm smitten with is DaQuan Jones [PSU]. He's bigger but he's got some nice athleticism for a guy his size. Would be like having 2 Odricks on the field together. With Jordan at OLB I actually wouldn't mind going bigger and more physically imposing at RE which Jones definitely is. Odrick-Soliai-Jones would be pretty nasty IMO and would be a b**ch to run on.

    Aaron Donald should enter the equation as well. He's shorter than you'd like for a hybrid RE but that shortness should play to his favor as a nickel DT rusher.
     
  38. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    You have to let Jordan spy Cam, wich sucks because he is about the only guy I think could cover Greg Olsen.

    Jesus Ellerbe is just so average it's painful.
     
  39. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    are you trying to be a dick?
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Just helping MrClean with his self delusion that people are out to get him.
     

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