Charles Harris Traded

"hitman8 wrote:

Right after we picked minkah I said I was ok with the pick, but would have preferred Edmunds or James. I didn't hate the pick, but I though we could have done better. In that year I liked several of the picks we made and said so.

Edmunds is not as good as either Minkah or James..he’s not even the best linebacker on his team

"resnor wrote:

No. Making the right decision doesn't guarantee the right results. Trading Tunsil was the right decision, regardless of whether or not the new picks pan out. That would simply mean the wrong decisions were made on the new draft picks.

...or that the draft simply "won." There is no decision-making regarding the draft that has proven reliable:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

This is again why a team's recent track record of drafting has to be considered when trading players who've become successful draft picks. If you've had an abundance of recent good luck in the draft, you can trade players like Tunsil and Fitzpatrick. You shouldn't think you're going to replace them with future picks, because there is no systematic way of determining that.

"hitman8 wrote:

Just because that was his hype, doesn't mean that was actually the best way to use him.

That's a completely different argument, and has nothing to do with either your original post or my response to that post. Minkah was touted as able to play multiple positions, which he knew Miami was interested in. Minkah did not maker it known that he didn't want to be used that way. He went with it, even encouraged that line of thinking, because it drove his draft position up.

That's factual. And it makes his behavior even more problematic that he started having a fit because he was being used in the manner that he was, knowingly, drafted for.

"The Guy wrote:

...or that the draft simply "won." There is no decision-making regarding the draft that has proven reliable:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

This is again why a team's recent track record of drafting has to be considered when trading players who've become successful draft picks. If you've had an abundance of recent good luck in the draft, you can trade players like Tunsil and Fitzpatrick. You shouldn't think you're going to replace them with future picks, because there is no systematic way of determining that.

:headwall:

"djphinfan wrote:

Edmunds is not as good as either Minkah or James..he’s not even the best linebacker on his team

I liked Edmunds because I thought his skills would be perfect for the wide 9 alignment we were running at the time. He has the size and strength to take on linemen and defeat their blocks while at the same time having the athleticism to drop back and cover tight ends, both of which were big problems on our defense at the time since we didn't have the linebacker skills necessary to run that system. He hasn't exactly torn it up in Buffalo, but he hasn't been terrible either, he's had some nice production and is still only 21 years old.

I also liked James over minkah because James would be better able to cover the holes we had in the secondary which were covering tight ends and/or being a rangy free safety, he does both those things better than Minkah.

"cbrad wrote:

OK.. assuming that's true (not going to go double check it), it's useful information because it does show your ability to evaluate isn't clearly better than the pros. Not saying you claimed you were better, but it does sometimes come across that way.

He's lying....again. It's almost like he doesn't realize his posts stick around after a new page begins...lol

This is a quote from @7762 :

"Your statement about McMillan is factually wrong as well. He did not play at all in the preseason, he got injured on the first kickoff of the first preseason game. Just because coaches praised him in training camp and were thinking of starting him doesn't mean we should believe them and anoint him as a sure thing. They also said x howard was going to be a shutdown corner and he is now one of the worst corners in the league."

Now, he may have waffled at some point, because that's his MO, but he most definitely does not like "4-5" players from each draft on average.

PFF Grades

[ATTACH:full]

Kiko alonso: [ATTACH:full]

Edmunds: [ATTACH:full]

"Kiko's play has not been "average". He was among the worst linebackers in the league in coverage, well below average. Against the run he was slightly better but still below average. His PFF score was also well below acerage. Add in all of his mistakes, missed tackles and the fact that most of his tackles come 8 to 12 yards downfield and I don't see how you qualify him as average."
---- @7762

Kiko, even though looking about the same as Edmunds, is "among the worst" while Edmunds "hasn't been terrible"...
LMAO!!

"danmarino wrote:

He's lying....again. It's almost like he doesn't realize his posts stick around after a new page begins...lol

This is a quote from @7762 :

"Your statement about McMillan is factually wrong as well. He did not play at all in the preseason, he got injured on the first kickoff of the first preseason game. Just because coaches praised him in training camp and were thinking of starting him doesn't mean we should believe them and anoint him as a sure thing. They also said x howard was going to be a shutdown corner and he is now one of the worst corners in the league."

Now, he may have waffled at some point, because that's his MO, but he most definitely does not like "4-5" players from each draft on average.

That comment you just quoted had nothing to do with what I thought about McMillan when we drafted. When we drafted him I said I liked the pick, although I would have preferred Zach Cunningham, when we picked him I though it was a good pick.

That comment was me arguing that we should not be sure about our linebacker situation and we should not count on McMillan coming back from injury and being any good since he had never actually played and showed anything aside from the fact that he was coming off injury.

In terms of howard he was not a a very good player for us at the time I wrote that. He developed into one of the best in the league and I love that it worked out that way.

"hitman8 wrote:

In 2019 I loved the Christian Wilkins pick, and I liked the Isaiah Prince, Chandler Cox and Gaskin picks. I absolutley hated the deiter and van ginkel picks though. That's 4 I liked.

In 2017 I absolutley hated the charles harris pick, but I liked the McMillan, Tankersley, Vincent Taylor and Isaiah Ford picks. That's 4 I liked.

"I also didn't like the Godchaux and Ford picks..."
@7762- 5/2/2017

More lies..

"danmarino wrote:

"I also didn't like the Godchaux and Ford picks..."
@7762- 5/2/2017

More lies..

I never said I liked Godcheaux coming out, Ford I didn't honestly remember. He was a 7th round pick I was going off memory. I do remember I liked the McMillan, Tankersley and Vincent Taylor picks for sure.

"hitman8 wrote:

Harris does not "fill a huge hole" and he has many flaws. It's been confirmed we had multiple trade down offers on the table, yes we can't know for sure what was offered but I am willing to bet it was at least similar to what Atlanta gave Seattle for the 26th pick. We should have traded down.

I agree with your assessments of the day 2 picks I liked all of them and also Asiata on day three.

However about Davon don't be ridiculous the guy is not a space eater he got regularly pushed around and out of the whole by college competition and is not very strong or big at all what do you think the pros are going to do to him? I believe he will be lucky to make the team. If you wanted a true space eater we should have drafted Stevie Tuikolovatu who was on the board and who the bucs later traded with us to get him.

Vincent Taylor I like a little more with his athletic ability but he is still very raw and there were beter options on the board.

Last pick makes no sense either we don't need more wide recievers and the guy doesnt even play special teams Jon Toth was still on the board there so was eric wilson the fastest linebacker in the draft and a special teams deamon.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

"danmarino wrote:

PFF Grades

[ATTACH:full]

Kiko alonso: [ATTACH:full]

Edmunds: [ATTACH:full]

"Kiko's play has not been "average". He was among the worst linebackers in the league in coverage, well below average. Against the run he was slightly better but still below average. His PFF score was also well below acerage. Add in all of his mistakes, missed tackles and the fact that most of his tackles come 8 to 12 yards downfield and I don't see how you qualify him as average."
---- @7762

Kiko, even though looking about the same as Edmunds, is "among the worst" while Edmunds "hasn't been terrible"...
LMAO!!

You do know that kiko only started 4 games for new Orleans last year as opposed to 16 starts for Edmunds? You do know Kiko only had 31 total tackles last year compared to Edmunds 115 total tackles? Those PFF grades, as with most of the stats you post, are completely misleading.

"danmarino wrote:

I have stated multiple times I was very wrong about Godcheaux and that I watched only one games worth of tape of him coming out which was not very impressive. I did like the Taylor pick though.

Going through anyone's history post by post you can always find things wrong to point out and blow out of proportion, which is what you are doing. The overall point I was making is that I don't hate on every single pick or "99%" of the picks which is what you said.

"hitman8 wrote:

You do know that kiko only started 4 games for new Orleans last year as opposed to 16 starts for Edmunds? You do know Kiko only had 31 total tackles last year compared to Edmunds 115 total tackles. Those PFF grades, as with most of the stats you post, are completely misleading.

More lies.

Kiko had 25 tackles and Edmunds had 66 tackles.
Kiko had nearly 300 snaps last season. That's about a 1/3 of a season and plenty to extrapolate.

"The Guy wrote:

...or that the draft simply "won." There is no decision-making regarding the draft that has proven reliable:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

This is again why a team's recent track record of drafting has to be considered when trading players who've become successful draft picks. If you've had an abundance of recent good luck in the draft, you can trade players like Tunsil and Fitzpatrick. You shouldn't think you're going to replace them with future picks, because there is no systematic way of determining that.

We're getting philosophical here. Look, when a team offers two firsts and two seconds, for one player, you take it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if those four picks all are the worst busts of all time. It doesn't matter if that player you traded goes on to be a HoFer.

There only correct answer when a deal like that is offered is "Yes."

Nothing that happens after accepting the deal either validates or invalidates the decision to accept the trade. It's simply the correct decision to make.

"danmarino wrote:

More lies.

Kiko had 25 tackles and Edmunds had 66 tackles.
Kiko had nearly 300 snaps last season. That's about a 1/3 of a season and plenty to extrapolate.

Again, completely misleading. Kiko had a total of 37 combined total tackles last year with only 4 starts. Edmunds had 115 combined total tackles in 16 games started.

Kiko is a veteran, Edmunds is a 21 year old in his second year.

"resnor wrote:

We're getting philosophical here. Look, when a team offers two firsts and two seconds, for one player, you take it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if those four picks all are the worst busts of all time. It doesn't matter if that player you traded goes on to be a HoFer.

There only correct answer when a deal like that is offered is "Yes."

Nothing that happens after accepting the deal either validates or invalidates the decision to accept the trade. It's simply the correct decision to make.

First, this was the actual trade:

A 2020 first-round pick, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2021 second-round pick, CB Johnson Bademosi and T Julien Davenport from the Texans in exchange for T Laremy Tunsil, WR Kenny Stills, a 2020 fourth-round pick and a 2021 sixth-round pick.

Second, imagine a scenario in which the Dolphins were on the cusp of Super Bowl contention, let's say in 1985, and a team offered the above compensation for Dan Marino. The answer shouldn't have been yes. Likewise, the Chiefs for example shouldn't trade Patrick Mahomes for the above compensation.

So, the fact that there is at least one possible scenario in which the trade shouldn't be made indicates that there should be critical examination of whether the trade should be made in every scenario.

Now, what we can add to this particular scenario is that another of the team's recent first-round picks was a bust. That's important information to consider, and hopefully the team considered it at the time it made the trade.

Rather than having a stud edge rusher, a stud left tackle, and a stud coverage safety with three of its recent first-round picks, the team now has none of the above.

It was a bad pick. I didn't like it when we took him, I wanted TJ Watt. That doesn't make me right nor does it make me an expert. Watt was just who I liked. I remember being like "Who TF is Charles Harris?" when we took him. I definitely rooted for him to figure things out, but he's officially a bust for us. Hopefully he figures it out in Atlanta.

"The Guy wrote:

First, this was the actual trade:

A 2020 first-round pick, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2021 second-round pick, CB Johnson Bademosi and T Julien Davenport from the Texans in exchange for T Laremy Tunsil, WR Kenny Stills, a 2020 fourth-round pick and a 2021 sixth-round pick.

Second, imagine a scenario in which the Dolphins were on the cusp of Super Bowl contention, let's say in 1985, and a team offered the above compensation for Dan Marino. The answer shouldn't have been yes. Likewise, the Chiefs for example shouldn't trade Patrick Mahomes for the above compensation.

So, the fact that there is at least one possible scenario in which the trade shouldn't be made indicates that there should be critical examination of whether the trade should be made in every scenario.

Now, what we can add to this particular scenario is that another of the team's recent first-round picks was a bust. That's important information to consider, and hopefully the team considered it at the time it made the trade.

Rather than having a stud edge rusher, a stud left tackle, and a stud coverage safety with three of its recent first-round picks, the team now has none of the above.

All of this is true, but you're leaving some things out and not looking at the entire picture.

First, the Dolphins, even with a "stud" edge rusher, stud left tackle, and a stud DB won 7 games the year prior. They were not a Super Bowl caliber team.

Second, none of those positions are as important as a QB and even though no one would trade Marino or Mahomes, Tunsil is not Marino or Mahomes.

Third, Minkah was not happy here. He was more of a detriment than a stud DB. (And I loved the pick) The Dolphins recouped a 1st round pick for him.

Fourth, when a team offers what the Texans offered for a LT and WR you have to take it IF you're not a SB caliber team and instead in rebuilding mode.

Finally, the Dolphins won just as many games without Tunsil, Stills, and Minkah, but now they have their QB, a ton of OL help to go through, LOTS of money, a stud DB (Byron Jones), and potential at almost every position. And to top it off, 2 firsts and 2 seconds in next year's draft.

"The Guy wrote:

First, this was the actual trade:

A 2020 first-round pick, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2021 second-round pick, CB Johnson Bademosi and T Julien Davenport from the Texans in exchange for T Laremy Tunsil, WR Kenny Stills, a 2020 fourth-round pick and a 2021 sixth-round pick.

Second, imagine a scenario in which the Dolphins were on the cusp of Super Bowl contention, let's say in 1985, and a team offered the above compensation for Dan Marino. The answer shouldn't have been yes. Likewise, the Chiefs for example shouldn't trade Patrick Mahomes for the above compensation.

So, the fact that there is at least one possible scenario in which the trade shouldn't be made indicates that there should be critical examination of whether the trade should be made in every scenario.

Now, what we can add to this particular scenario is that another of the team's recent first-round picks was a bust. That's important information to consider, and hopefully the team considered it at the time it made the trade.

Rather than having a stud edge rusher, a stud left tackle, and a stud coverage safety with three of its recent first-round picks, the team now has none of the above.

We didn't want to trade minkah. Continuing to bring him up is pointless. We're talking about the Tunsil trade. He wasn't Dan Marino, and we weren't on the cusp of anything. You make that trade every time, and you don't judge the rightness of it by how the picks turn out.

We were a bad team, and we were going to be bad, and we needed to cut large contracts, or players that would have massive contracts.

But let's play your game. We keep Tunsil, win one or two more games, and have no shot at Tua, or any other top ranked QB, AND we lose Tunsil anyway to free agency because he wanted a ton of money.

So we keep Tunsil an extra year, for no reason, and it costs us 4 draft picks and the best QB, arguably, in college football.

Again, you need to actually understand what you're commenting on.

"ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

It was a bad pick. I didn't like it when we took him, I wanted TJ Watt. That doesn't make me right nor does it make me an expert. Watt was just who I liked. I remember being like "Who TF is Charles Harris?" when we took him. I definitely rooted for him to figure things out, but he's officially a bust for us. Hopefully he figures it out in Atlanta.

it reminded me a little of the Dion Johnson pick. You have all the off field measurables you could want, but when you put on the gane tape all he had was one trick. One trick ponies almost never work in the NFL.

"Pauly wrote:

it reminded me a little of the Dion Johnson pick. You have all the off field measurables you could want, but when you put on the gane tape all he had was one trick. One trick ponies almost never work in the NFL.

Who is Dion Johnson?

"Pauly wrote:

it reminded me a little of the Dion Johnson pick. You have all the off field measurables you could want, but when you put on the gane tape all he had was one trick. One trick ponies almost never work in the NFL.

Harris didn't even have the off field measurables either. All he had was get off and bend. NFL evaluators put too much weight on those two things and pretty much ignored everything else about him which screamed bust.

"hitman8 wrote:

I liked Edmunds because I thought his skills would be perfect for the wide 9 alignment we were running at the time. He has the size and strength to take on linemen and defeat their blocks while at the same time having the athleticism to drop back and cover tight ends, both of which were big problems on our defense at the time since we didn't have the linebacker skills necessary to run that system. He hasn't exactly torn it up in Buffalo, but he hasn't been terrible either, he's had some nice production and is still only 21 years old.

I also liked James over minkah because James would be better able to cover the holes we had in the secondary which were covering tight ends and/or being a rangy free safety, he does both those things better than Minkah.

I thinks that accurate, he’s been average..still young, but I’m gonna stick to what I thought predraft..will wow you with plays when he guesses right, but I don’t believe he has the instincts to be special, not worth top 15 pick.

"danmarino wrote:

Who is Dion Johnson?

Some first round bust we drafted a few years ago. I can’t be bothered to remember his name correctly anymore.