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Charles Harris Traded

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, May 1, 2020.

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  1. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    It's OK that we give opinions, and ALL of us miss or are wrong...It's the fact that when a person hates EVERYONE and/or waffles back and forth and then comes back and claims victory every single year, well, that gets tiring.
     
  2. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    Yes. They are using him in Pitt exactly like he was used here. That's what I said no matter how you try to spin it....
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think because Minkah was young and he saw a lot of players moved that he never could have imagined leaving, he couldn't buy into the vision & requested the trade. And there's nothing wrong with that, he has principles and stuck to them (in a way, it makes me like him even more). I hate that we lost a young talent like that but I also understand that it was a necessary move- it happens from time to time. I still wish the kid all the best.

    I agree with you on Tunsil as well- that was a tough trade to swallow but we could have got any player in the league for what the Texans paid. Heck, we could have traded the Tunsil picks for Burrow or Young...that's near impossible to pass on. So this definitely is not a case of comparing Tunsil to Jackson...Tunsil is CLEARLY better. It's comparing Tunsil to the four players eventually taken and hoping that four dependable day-one starters are better than one all-star. Like you said though, the front office has to hit on those four picks for us to see the real value of that trade.
     
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  4. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Dude, how can there be legitimate concern over the Fitzpatrick trade when it was Fitzpatrick who forced the trade? We did the best we could in that situation. Grier and Flores met with Fitzpatrick to try and work out a compromise so Fitzpatrick would stay, but he wasn't having it. We managed a 1st round pick, and since we were in sort of a pickle it could have been much worse. Time will tell if the Tunsil trade ends in a win for us, but we shouldn't be including the Fitzpatrick trade in a discussion about Grier draft busts.
     
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  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Right after we picked minkah I said I was ok with the pick, but would have preferred Edmunds or James. I didn't hate the pick, but I though we could have done better. In that year I liked several of the picks we made and said so.
     
  6. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I don't believe that. I don't track all your posts or opinions but your general negativity towards Dolphins draft picks is pretty clear IMO, so I would be really surprised if what you said is true.

    This is the Dolphins draft history:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/draft.htm

    If it's really true that you like 4-5 picks per draft, then that means that in most drafts you like at least half or more than half the picks we made because we usually don't have 9+ draft picks (2013 was the last time with at least 9 draft picks before this year).

    In 2019 we only had 6 picks. You liked 4-5 of them? Which ones? And since you were against Harris in 2017, that leaves 6 draft picks and you liked 4-5 of them? I don't believe that unless proven otherwise.
     
  7. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    In 2019 I loved the Christian Wilkins pick, and I liked the Isaiah Prince, Chandler Cox and Gaskin picks. I absolutley hated the deiter and van ginkel picks though. That's 4 I liked.

    In 2017 I absolutley hated the charles harris pick, but I liked the McMillan, Tankersley, Vincent Taylor and Isaiah Ford picks. That's 4 I liked.
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    OK.. assuming that's true (not going to go double check it), it's useful information because it does show your ability to evaluate isn't clearly better than the pros. Not saying you claimed you were better, but it does sometimes come across that way.
     
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  9. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I have never claimed I am better than the pros, but I have been right on some key picks, and when I absolutely hate a pick, it is usually for good reason.

    I don't just hate for hating's sake as some others have suggested.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Didn’t take a rocket scientist to see Harris being a bust and Watt being the right pick.

    Double bad
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Edmunds is not as good as either Minkah or James..he’s not even the best linebacker on his team
     
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  12. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    ...or that the draft simply "won." There is no decision-making regarding the draft that has proven reliable:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

    This is again why a team's recent track record of drafting has to be considered when trading players who've become successful draft picks. If you've had an abundance of recent good luck in the draft, you can trade players like Tunsil and Fitzpatrick. You shouldn't think you're going to replace them with future picks, because there is no systematic way of determining that.
     
  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's a completely different argument, and has nothing to do with either your original post or my response to that post. Minkah was touted as able to play multiple positions, which he knew Miami was interested in. Minkah did not maker it known that he didn't want to be used that way. He went with it, even encouraged that line of thinking, because it drove his draft position up.

    That's factual. And it makes his behavior even more problematic that he started having a fit because he was being used in the manner that he was, knowingly, drafted for.
     
  14. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    :headwall:
     
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  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I liked Edmunds because I thought his skills would be perfect for the wide 9 alignment we were running at the time. He has the size and strength to take on linemen and defeat their blocks while at the same time having the athleticism to drop back and cover tight ends, both of which were big problems on our defense at the time since we didn't have the linebacker skills necessary to run that system. He hasn't exactly torn it up in Buffalo, but he hasn't been terrible either, he's had some nice production and is still only 21 years old.

    I also liked James over minkah because James would be better able to cover the holes we had in the secondary which were covering tight ends and/or being a rangy free safety, he does both those things better than Minkah.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    He's lying....again. It's almost like he doesn't realize his posts stick around after a new page begins...lol


    This is a quote from @hitman8 :


    "Your statement about McMillan is factually wrong as well. He did not play at all in the preseason, he got injured on the first kickoff of the first preseason game. Just because coaches praised him in training camp and were thinking of starting him doesn't mean we should believe them and anoint him as a sure thing. They also said x howard was going to be a shutdown corner and he is now one of the worst corners in the league."


    Now, he may have waffled at some point, because that's his MO, but he most definitely does not like "4-5" players from each draft on average.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  17. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    PFF Grades

    upload_2020-5-1_16-45-48.png

    Kiko alonso: upload_2020-5-1_16-43-32.png

    Edmunds: upload_2020-5-1_16-42-33.png


    "Kiko's play has not been "average". He was among the worst linebackers in the league in coverage, well below average. Against the run he was slightly better but still below average. His PFF score was also well below acerage. Add in all of his mistakes, missed tackles and the fact that most of his tackles come 8 to 12 yards downfield and I don't see how you qualify him as average."
    ---- @hitman8

    Kiko, even though looking about the same as Edmunds, is "among the worst" while Edmunds "hasn't been terrible"...
    LMAO!!
     
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  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    That comment you just quoted had nothing to do with what I thought about McMillan when we drafted. When we drafted him I said I liked the pick, although I would have preferred Zach Cunningham, when we picked him I though it was a good pick.

    That comment was me arguing that we should not be sure about our linebacker situation and we should not count on McMillan coming back from injury and being any good since he had never actually played and showed anything aside from the fact that he was coming off injury.

    In terms of howard he was not a a very good player for us at the time I wrote that. He developed into one of the best in the league and I love that it worked out that way.
     
  19. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    "I also didn't like the Godchaux and Ford picks..."
    @hitman8- 5/2/2017


    More lies..
     
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  20. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I never said I liked Godcheaux coming out, Ford I didn't honestly remember. He was a 7th round pick I was going off memory. I do remember I liked the McMillan, Tankersley and Vincent Taylor picks for sure.
     
  21. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You do know that kiko only started 4 games for new Orleans last year as opposed to 16 starts for Edmunds? You do know Kiko only had 31 total tackles last year compared to Edmunds 115 total tackles? Those PFF grades, as with most of the stats you post, are completely misleading.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  23. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I have stated multiple times I was very wrong about Godcheaux and that I watched only one games worth of tape of him coming out which was not very impressive. I did like the Taylor pick though.

    Going through anyone's history post by post you can always find things wrong to point out and blow out of proportion, which is what you are doing. The overall point I was making is that I don't hate on every single pick or "99%" of the picks which is what you said.
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    More lies.

    Kiko had 25 tackles and Edmunds had 66 tackles.
    Kiko had nearly 300 snaps last season. That's about a 1/3 of a season and plenty to extrapolate.
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    We're getting philosophical here. Look, when a team offers two firsts and two seconds, for one player, you take it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if those four picks all are the worst busts of all time. It doesn't matter if that player you traded goes on to be a HoFer.

    There only correct answer when a deal like that is offered is "Yes."


    Nothing that happens after accepting the deal either validates or invalidates the decision to accept the trade. It's simply the correct decision to make.
     
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  26. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Again, completely misleading. Kiko had a total of 37 combined total tackles last year with only 4 starts. Edmunds had 115 combined total tackles in 16 games started.

    Kiko is a veteran, Edmunds is a 21 year old in his second year.
     
  27. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    First, this was the actual trade:

    A 2020 first-round pick, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2021 second-round pick, CB Johnson Bademosi and T Julien Davenport from the Texans in exchange for T Laremy Tunsil, WR Kenny Stills, a 2020 fourth-round pick and a 2021 sixth-round pick.

    Second, imagine a scenario in which the Dolphins were on the cusp of Super Bowl contention, let's say in 1985, and a team offered the above compensation for Dan Marino. The answer shouldn't have been yes. Likewise, the Chiefs for example shouldn't trade Patrick Mahomes for the above compensation.

    So, the fact that there is at least one possible scenario in which the trade shouldn't be made indicates that there should be critical examination of whether the trade should be made in every scenario.

    Now, what we can add to this particular scenario is that another of the team's recent first-round picks was a bust. That's important information to consider, and hopefully the team considered it at the time it made the trade.

    Rather than having a stud edge rusher, a stud left tackle, and a stud coverage safety with three of its recent first-round picks, the team now has none of the above.
     
  28. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    It was a bad pick. I didn't like it when we took him, I wanted TJ Watt. That doesn't make me right nor does it make me an expert. Watt was just who I liked. I remember being like "Who TF is Charles Harris?" when we took him. I definitely rooted for him to figure things out, but he's officially a bust for us. Hopefully he figures it out in Atlanta.
     
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  29. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    All of this is true, but you're leaving some things out and not looking at the entire picture.

    First, the Dolphins, even with a "stud" edge rusher, stud left tackle, and a stud DB won 7 games the year prior. They were not a Super Bowl caliber team.

    Second, none of those positions are as important as a QB and even though no one would trade Marino or Mahomes, Tunsil is not Marino or Mahomes.

    Third, Minkah was not happy here. He was more of a detriment than a stud DB. (And I loved the pick) The Dolphins recouped a 1st round pick for him.

    Fourth, when a team offers what the Texans offered for a LT and WR you have to take it IF you're not a SB caliber team and instead in rebuilding mode.

    Finally, the Dolphins won just as many games without Tunsil, Stills, and Minkah, but now they have their QB, a ton of OL help to go through, LOTS of money, a stud DB (Byron Jones), and potential at almost every position. And to top it off, 2 firsts and 2 seconds in next year's draft.
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    We didn't want to trade minkah. Continuing to bring him up is pointless. We're talking about the Tunsil trade. He wasn't Dan Marino, and we weren't on the cusp of anything. You make that trade every time, and you don't judge the rightness of it by how the picks turn out.

    We were a bad team, and we were going to be bad, and we needed to cut large contracts, or players that would have massive contracts.

    But let's play your game. We keep Tunsil, win one or two more games, and have no shot at Tua, or any other top ranked QB, AND we lose Tunsil anyway to free agency because he wanted a ton of money.

    So we keep Tunsil an extra year, for no reason, and it costs us 4 draft picks and the best QB, arguably, in college football.

    Again, you need to actually understand what you're commenting on.
     
  31. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    it reminded me a little of the Dion Johnson pick. You have all the off field measurables you could want, but when you put on the gane tape all he had was one trick. One trick ponies almost never work in the NFL.
     
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  32. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    Who is Dion Johnson?
     
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  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Harris didn't even have the off field measurables either. All he had was get off and bend. NFL evaluators put too much weight on those two things and pretty much ignored everything else about him which screamed bust.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thinks that accurate, he’s been average..still young, but I’m gonna stick to what I thought predraft..will wow you with plays when he guesses right, but I don’t believe he has the instincts to be special, not worth top 15 pick.
     
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  35. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Some first round bust we drafted a few years ago. I can’t be bothered to remember his name correctly anymore.
     
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  36. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    You guys make good points about why the trades should've been made, and I agree with them. The point I'm making is that with yet another recent first-round pick who won't be contributing to the team, the team's margin for error in assembling a Super Bowl-caliber roster has become exceedingly small.

    Take a look at the team's recent drafts (prior to 2020) and tell me where the talent is:

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/draft.htm

    If we consider that a good player might have at maximum an eight-year prime in the league (roughly age 22 through 30), let's start with 2012. There isn't a single player on the team from that year.

    2013: Not a single player on the team from that year.

    2014: Not a single player on the team from that year.

    2015: DeVante Parker remains as the sole significant contributor from that year. Let's hope he can replicate his 2019 season.

    2016: Xavien Howard remains as the sole significant contributor from that year, and his future is somewhat uncertain. Laremy Tunsil was drafted in the first round that year. He's now gone.

    2017: Raekwon McMillan and Davon Godchaux remain on the roster as starters from that year, and neither player is anything special. Cordrea Tankersley appears to be a career backup at best. Charles Harris was drafted in the first round that year. He's now gone.

    2018: Mike Gesicki and Jerome Baker remain on the roster from that year, and neither player is anything special. Minkah Fitzpatrick was drafted in the first round that year. He's now gone.

    2019: Christian Wilkins appears to be the only player from that year with any promise, and so far he's displayed nothing special.

    So, this team is going to need to hit on an inordinately high percentage of picks this year and next to aseemble a critical mass of talent.

    So the point is that when we see a trade made and think "wow -- look at all these high picks we're getting!" remember that from 2012 through 2019, those kinds of picks have translated to almost nothing.

    We'll have to pay attention to what happens with these current picks, while we watch Tunsil and Fitzpatrick have careers in which they're perennial Pro-Bowlers for other teams.
     
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  37. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    I get it. I was more referring to the two resident geniuses in club that self promote bad evaluations...I give them credit for their marketing though and for being able to sell bad opinions for a long time to reporters and newspapers.....who use them to plant stories and drive a narrative to at the very least assist in a teams agenda......these two guys were referring to Charles Harris being better than Myles Garrett and I was called an idiot for saying Harris was a bust with a high degree of certainty.....same thing has happened over the years multiple times, ......and when the history is in the rear view......crickets...and these guys are still self promoting how connected and what great evaluators ONLY they are....and I don't think either one of them have ever been in a huddle or locker room....

     
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  38. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Don't forget part of the strategy with the Tunsil and Fitzpatrick trades was to give us more draft resources should we need it to trade up. Thankfully, we didn't, but having that option adds a certain value to the trades and a +1 in my evaluation of Grier and their draft strategy as a whole. That said, I have been concerned about Grier's ability to evaluate talent, especially OL talent. However, I can't lay it all at Grier's feet because I don't know if he was for or against any of our picks before this year. I am hopeful, but I still have doubts.
     
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  39. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    They have lacked capital for one......I see a change in philosophy and actually Ross probably had it right wanting to trade out of Fitzpatrick pick for more capital......but 2019 they only had 2 picks in the top 125 or so, I think Smythe was around 135 or so from memory so 2018 was not much better from a capital standpoint. Jury is still out on Dieter. It is hard to hit on R5/6/7 guys when you are trying to plug gaps on a roster and do not have the luxury of projecting.......Weaver, Stowbridge and Perry are all some sort of projectable pick and have upside so you can see the change...Stowbridge in particular could be an earlier contributor. Also remember Miami with the Harris trade has all their picks, an extra 1, an extra 2, an extra 6 from trading out of 7 this year, and two extra 7's for a total of 13 picks and I think they likely will pick up 1 or 2 more as trading camp gets hopefully going...teams will want to trade for known quantities in TC gets shortened and I do not see Miami as seeing this year as the year they compete for a deep run.....so likely they will take some of that late capital and move around for an extra 3/4 or 5......Rosen might have some trade value in the 5 range to a team now that you have your QB for the future.

     
  40. danmarino

    danmarino George Floyd was murdered Club Member

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    Who said Harris was better than Garrett?
     
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