Charles Harris Traded

There should be some legitimate concern about whether trading Tunsil and Fitzpatrick was a good idea, since those were recent first-round picks who actually panned out at a high level.

You can't bust on a normal percentage of picks (e.g., Harris) and trade the ones you hit on. Then you're left with nothing.

"Bumrush wrote:

For a 7th round pick.

Does Grier get a free pass on that one? TJ Watt, there for the taking and we wind up with an all time Miami Dolphins bust in the mold of Dion Jordan.

We dont know Grier made that decision for himself do we? Wasnt the front office/GM duty split during that time or am I remembering the years wrong?

I've never held it against him or given a pass. My opinion has been to judge him from last year on.

Honestly I'm shocked we got a 7th.

"The Guy wrote:

There should be some legitimate concern about whether trading Tunsil and Fitzpatrick was a good idea, since those were recent first-round picks who actually panned out at a high level.

You can't bust on a normal percentage of picks (e.g., Harris) and trade the ones you hit on. Then you're left with nothing.

We got incredible value for both of them and kicked the can down the road in terms of overpaying them on their second contract.

I have ZERO problem with how Miami is operating. You also had a new regime in place last year that has been fixing years (practically decades) of ineptitude, both from a roster perspective and cap perspective.

Who is it that hasn't picked a bust that has spent any time as a GM in the NFL?

I don't know who was the buck stop previously in Miami, but since they dropped Tannenbaum, and left Grier as the sole survivor, I have loved most of the movies made. Even the ones I was initially meh about. Like Flores. It seems like there has been a shift from maximizing talent to building a team with one vision. Team comes first. How good does the pain of last season look for the future now? 2 firsts and two seconds again!

"The Guy wrote:

There should be some legitimate concern about whether trading Tunsil and Fitzpatrick was a good idea, since those were recent first-round picks who actually panned out at a high level.

You can't bust on a normal percentage of picks (e.g., Harris) and trade the ones you hit on. Then you're left with nothing.

When has keeping a malcontent worked out? There must be an example, it's escaping me now. Regardless, cutting bait while a first is on the cutting board was the right decision.

Tunsil was 2 firsts, a second, not paying that contract he just signed, and probably contributed to not picking later than 5. Which was necessary for Tua. Miami wins one more game with him.

Generally speaking you are of course correct. I think circumstances created a unique situation here. Cannot have a successful fire sell if you keep all the unburnt items.

I think that's enough metaphors for today.

"Bumrush wrote:

We got incredible value for both of them and kicked the can down the road in terms of overpaying them on their second contract.

I have ZERO problem with how Miami is operating. You also had a new regime in place last year that has been fixing years (practically decades) of ineptitude, both from a roster perspective and cap perspective.

To be honest, we dont have any value yet. Picks, at least to me are worthless until the player performs.

So basically the trade was Tunsil for a chance at more talent. Which is 100% fine by me, but it was only good value if we end up with players who contribute more to the team as a whole than he would have. If the players we take dont pan out, it will be a loss.

If Jackson ends up being a solid tackle for us that would go a long way towards winning that trade, even if it wasnt their pick, because we will have replaced the player we traded.

"Bumrush wrote:

We got incredible value for both of them and kicked the can down the road in terms of overpaying them on their second contract.

I have ZERO problem with how Miami is operating. You also had a new regime in place last year that has been fixing years (practically decades) of ineptitude, both from a roster perspective and cap perspective.

This. Aside from the newest FA crop, we have so little money invested that it leaves things open for Grier and Flores to reshape the roster.

Yes, it depleted us of some real talent, but it also gave us greater resources and flexibility. We don't need to pay Wilkins for what, 4 more years (including the 5th year option)? After that, our glut of first rounders and other high picks will need $$, but by then our free agents should be coming off the board and we can pick and choose who to continue building around and who to let go.

The key is Tua. If he can come in and play at a high level we have a phenomenal championship window before he gets handed a mega-deal.

"Bumrush wrote:

For a 7th round pick.

Does Grier get a free pass on that one? TJ Watt, there for the taking and we wind up with an all time Miami Dolphins bust in the mold of Dion Jordan.

Harris had the tools, and I was hopeful that he'd be able to succeed, but man what a waste!

Harris was a bad pick no doubt and you can lay that one at Griers feet, but so what. As was mentioned GM's miss all the time, it's nature of the beast. I always say if you're not making mistakes you're probably not doing anything. And for the most part since Grier took over total control his decisions have been quite good and there seems to be a plan other than overpaying F.A.'s to come in and under perform.

As far as Tunsil and Fitzpatrick, They did not want to trade Tunsil, Houston kept persuing him and finally came up with a Mafia style deal so Grier HAD to pull the trigger. 2 First's AND 2 Seconds? For a Tackle? That's Franchise QB value. He would have been crazy to turn it down. They didn't want to trade Fitzpatrick either but he turned into such a whiny child that they just went ahead and did it. Personally I think Minkah is going to regret his decision down the road as I see our upside under Flores much higher than Pittsburgh. And frankly, Nothing against Pitt, but I hope he does for the rest of his career.

Cleared some cap space and got a 7th rounder in return for a guy that turned out to be a bust. I won't blame Grier since we don't know how much control he actually had in making picks back then. He does get judged by this draft and going forward.

"Deus ex dolphin wrote:

Cleared some cap space and got a 7th rounder in return for a guy that turned out to be a bust. I won't blame Grier since we don't know how much control he actually had in making picks back then. He does get judged by this draft and going forward.

And last year's.

"The Dolphins released 2019 sack leader Taco Charlton yesterday. He had five sacks for them last year after being claimed off waivers from the Cowboys."

I'm a little surprised by this. I thought he did a pretty good job for us.

I can't believe he actually got a 7 for him. I thought he'd be cut for sure.

"Finatik wrote:

"The Dolphins released 2019 sack leader Taco Charlton yesterday. He had five sacks for them last year after being claimed off waivers from the Cowboys."

I'm a little surprised by this. I thought he did a pretty good job for us.

I liked him as well but in truth he wan't very good at setting the edge. In fact almost non existant.

"tirty8 wrote:

I can't believe he actually got a 7 for him. I thought he'd be cut for sure.

Well, we got back the 7th that we traded for a 6th next year so in a way we got a 6th for him! LOL

"danmarino wrote:

Harris had the tools, and I was hopeful that he'd be able to succeed, but man what a waste!

Harris did not have the tools. The problem is the dolphins (and you) were looking at the wrong things when they evaluated him. He has good ball get off, good bend ability around the corner, and a nice spin move, but that's it. Against good NFL tackles that stuff doesn't work on a consistent basis. You need more than just that. Whenever he faced a decent tackle in college he got neutralized, almost all his production came against weak competition. That should have been a big warning sign right there.

They also ignored the fact that he is slow for an edge player, is not very strong at the point of contact, and does not convert speed to power very well at all. His speed to power ratio was very underwhelming and that (the ability to convert speed to power) in my opinion should be one of the first things you look at when evaluating an edge player.

That is why I hated the pick when we made it. I thought Harris was vastly overrated. That Harris pick along with our inability to ever draft a decent offensive lineman past the first round is what makes me question Grier as an evaluator.

"Tin Indian wrote:

I liked him as well but in truth he wan't very good at setting the edge. In fact almost non existant.

He wasn't very good at anything really. Probably the most overrated prospect in the 2017 draft.

"Finatik wrote:

"The Dolphins released 2019 sack leader Taco Charlton yesterday. He had five sacks for them last year after being claimed off waivers from the Cowboys."

I'm a little surprised by this. I thought he did a pretty good job for us.

I said all the way back in 2017, charles harris and taco Charlton were the two most overrated edge guys in the draft.

"Deus ex dolphin wrote:

Cleared some cap space and got a 7th rounder in return for a guy that turned out to be a bust. I won't blame Grier since we don't know how much control he actually had in making picks back then. He does get judged by this draft and going forward.

I agree, Grier was director of scouting back then, but TBAUM had final say. He should get the benefit of the doubt. Last two drafts however are all on him. Now we will see how good or bad he really is.

Were moving some money around. Think they re-engage on clowney?

about 18m to sign the draft class if i recall. We have somewhere in the 30s left now. Maybe closer to 35. Are we spending it this offseason or rolling it over? Thats the question.

Ok so its 32 m as of this morning. Maybe a little more. Curious what they are playing at.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

are we rolling over 15m or is there another piece they want?

"Vinny Fins wrote:

Ok so its 32 m as of this morning. Maybe a little more. Curious what they are playing at.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

are we rolling over 15m or is there another piece they want?

We also have, before rookie contracts, $70 million next years cap

Sounds like rolling it over is a possible play but they have 9th most capspace next year too. At least we arent in bad shape going forward. Grier has done a great job cleaning the deck of bad money.
A big passrusher would be a cherry on a remarkable offseason sundae though.

"hitman8 wrote:

Harris did not have the tools. The problem is the dolphins (and you) were looking at the wrong things when they evaluated him. He has good ball get off, good bend ability around the corner, and a nice spin move, but that's it. Against good NFL tackles that stuff doesn't work on a consistent basis. You need more than just that. Whenever he faced a decent tackle in college he got neutralized, almost all his production came against weak competition. That should have been a big warning sign right there.

They also ignored the fact that he is slow for an edge player, is not very strong at the point of contact, and does not convert speed to power very well at all. His speed to power ratio was very underwhelming and that (the ability to convert speed to power) in my opinion should be one of the first things you look at when evaluating an edge player.

That is why I hated the pick when we made it. I thought Harris was vastly overrated. That Harris pick along with our inability to ever draft a decent offensive lineman past the first round is what makes me question Grier as an evaluator.

Of course he has/had the tools. He was a 1st round pick.

He is good at the things you mentioned, and the potential for him to improve was there. It never happened.

The fact that you call 99% of all Dolphins draftees "busts" and have disliked nearly all of them over the years isn't some great evaluation on your part. The majority of players that are drafted don't end up being too good. lol