There are no sure fire players, but there are players who are a lot safer bet to start and play at high level right away such as forrest lamp who was a shoe in day one starter at guard. Harris will not be ready to start for another season or 2 if ever. Either way there are no sure things in the draft your best bet is to play the numbers game and pick up more draft picks. Trading down from 21 for more picks is what the dolphins could and should have done.
And players like Forest Lamp have failed in the past. Jonathan Cooper was a much better draft pick and yet failed.
Why did you have no problem? Did you foresee his HoF career? lol 3rd round is where YOU think. You may be right. Even a broken clock is right twice per day. However, you can't give any good, reasonable explanation as to WHY you think he deserved a 3rd round grade. At least you've failed to do that so far. The things scouts fell in love with, and the things you ignore, are things that can't be taught. As CK pointed out, ALL NFL rookies are flawed. It's just that Harris isn't the flawed rookie you wanted so you whine. If you had started a thread titled, "Man, I wish Harris had some sacks this preseason!" I think everyone here would have agreed. However, when you start a thread claiming that you know a rookie player is a bust because they have zero sacks in the preseason you're just setting yourself up for ridicule.
A) They're all developmental players. Every single one. B) History is littered with the bodies of rookies people thought were more likely (for one reason or another) to be able to play right away than others. C) Playing the numbers game does not necessarily entail trading down and picking up more picks. (note: I'm a portfolio & risk analyst) D) Players are "flawed" if you decide they're flawed. And others may decide they're not flawed. This is the nature of the beast. It's all everyone second-guessing everyone else. You didn't like the pick and he's not played well (yet). Congrats. I once thought after Olivier Vernon's rookie year that there is no way he ever becomes a good pass rusher. And that still looked justifiable in the second year. You never really know. Charles Harris could quite conceivably end up with 8 sacks this year and everyone really optimistic about him, and nobody will ever say that it's some weird black swan event because he didn't get any sacks in the preseason. They'll say, "Oh he didn't get any sacks in preseason? Hah. Preseason. Pffff."
I think the difference is when you draft a top 5 draft pick that person should be an immediate impact and anything out of the top 10 is really a work in progress, granted there are a lot of exceptions to this really everyone is a work in progress at the pro level. I agree with you 100% on everything the guy should get an actual game in or a few before someone is even pegged this or that. Its a rarity for a rookie to come in and make a huge impact on defense. I think gase has a plan for him situational wise but he needs to gain weight I think is the main reason he will struggle. but that comes with time and work.
Actually I have stated exactly why I think he is flawed and should not have been a first round pick. He is undersized, not very strong while also being very slow for a DE. He gets pushed around against the run, he doesn't read offenses very well, he gets constantly fooled on misdirection, and he is more of a converted basketball player who doesn't understand the game very well and hasn't developed his football IQ yet. Those are the negatives, the positives are he has a great first step off the snap, he is quick in a short area, he has a very good spin move, and he seems to have the right attitude and work ethic to get better. Taking into account all the negatives with the positives I would not have picked him in the 1st. He should have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick which is where you pick guys who have obvious flaws in their game and are not projected to start right away. Yes there is no such thing as a sure pick even in the 1st round, but there are players who have much less question marks and deficiencies and who would have been projected starters day one. Better yet we could have traded down for more selections then picked guys like Jordan Willis and/or dion dawkins in the second/third.
Agree or disagree, I think he gave good, reasonable reasons for the 3rd round grade. He could be completely wrong, but he gave them. And they're not that outrageous.
Not really. His reasoning for calling Harris a bust is he has no sacks and he's poor against the run in 3 preseason games. And he hasn't been poor against the run. He's mad because they didn't get his guy.
First, you were talking about the 3rd round grade, not him calling him a bust. You said he hasn't given any good reasonable reasons for having a 3rd round grade on Harris, but I disagree. I think he has. He may be wrong, but he's given them. Second, he didn't call him a bust, he said he's stinking the joint up. He's denied calling him a bust at least twice in this thread, once in direct response to you, so you're putting words in his mouth. I haven't watched his preseason tape (I don't watch much preseason) but some cutups of Harris in college confirm his poor recognition and pursuit speed etc.
Post # 14: "I didn't say he would be a complete bust..." So he thinks he'll only be an incomplete bust. And again, claiming that a player sucks, excuse me is "stinking up the joint" after 3 preseason games due to them not having any sacks (and being wrong about what they've done in the run game) isn't good or reasonable to me. As to what you saw, the majority of draft experts say he has "outstanding closing speed to track down backs to the perimeter" and "Beats blockers to the spot in the run game slicing gaps and knifing into the backfield". While he may not be fast enough to catch most RB's from behind, very few DE's have EVER been that fast. He has average straight line speed for an edge player. From Walter Football: Dangerous speed rusher Fast around the corner Great ability to bend Carries his pads low Repertoire of pass-rushing moves Good spin move Uses hands and feet at same time Athletic Fast get off Fast in pursuit Explosive short burst Fires his gap to create disruption in backfield Quick to cut to the inside Can close on the quarterback in a hurry Gives a second effort to get sacks Natural pass-rushing skills Upside Read more at http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2017charris.php#P34ZTtwfjAKxM2VT.99 The majority of experts think he needs to improve on his run defense. I agree. However, he has not "stunk up the joint" with his play and has done OK against the run in his first 3 preseason games of his career.
Yeah I know, two plays out of how many. But he seems stiff so when there is something that needs to be recognized and he needs to react, it doesn't look good. Wake was the same at first too though.
In the Eagles game several times on 3rd & Long they put Charles Harris on the interior and rushed him over guards while Cam Wake and Andre Branch rushed. I don't have a video or anything but it happened maybe 2 or 3 times.
I wonder if we could be looking at the D going to a greyhound line on passing downs with a front of Wake, Hayes, Harris and Branch. You could probably run a lot of stunts and twists effectively with a front like that too. Reminiscent of the Giants circa 2007 when they did it with Osi, Strahan, Tuck, and Kiwanuka.
In all seriousness, I think people criticizing Harris on those plays don't understand what's going on. I may be wrong, but it seems he contained the runner in the first play and made the right move in the second.
He ran by the first play. There is no containment there. RB could have cut to that outside right by Harris if he was so inclined, you don't contain a runner staring right at the QB when the RB runs by. Keep in mind these were all in the same game. After watching two RBs run right by him on the 3rd time he tackled the RB, when he wasn't holding the ball. On that second one, yeah I'm not sure how you say he's making the right move. Sure he made the right move, split second too late Anyway, not saying that was indicative of Harris' college career. Just having fun with ya old 2,ooo year old arse (i'm only 5 years younger than you by the way, 40, not 1995). I'm no guru, and just commenting based on his reaction to the option. I've made no conclusion on Harris. I give him 3 years.
To me that series of plays looks like Harris' coach getting out-coached. The first 2 plays were designed to set up the third one.
i really dont wanted to waste my time on this garbage of a thread, but you think the injury would have happened on every team that would have drafted him ? so he was destined to tear up his ACL no matter where he would end up ?
Correct me if I'm wrong but uh...Harris was drafted 22nd. That doesn't sound like a "Top 5 Draft Pick" to me!
You're not wrong. I'm glad you mentioned it, as I have completely overlooked that fact as people have been complaining about Harris, while referencing top 5 picks... which he wasn't even close to being.
He wasn't saying Harris was a top-5 pick. I think he was trying to say that, usually, top-5 picks have an expectation to have an impact on a team right away (Dion Jordan lol). These are usually considered "blue-chip" prospects. If you read the entirety of his post, he agrees that time needs to pass before an informed opinion on Charles Harris can be made.
You need to stop reading walter football and start watching tape yourself. There is a lot of BS in that scouting report. Charles harris is not "fast in pursuit", he rarely if ever catches anybody from behind, be it QBs or RBs. He gives good effort but constantly comes up short. His 4.82 40 time showed us why, he is very slow running in a straight line which is the kind of speed you need in "pursuit". There are plenty of DEs that run in the 4.5 to 4.7 range. 4.82 is well below average. Charles harris is quick in a short area with good feet and change of direction which is logical since he is a converted basketball player, however when running in a straight line he is actually quite slow.
Then his whole post complaining about him is even more BS, if he believes that late first round picks have flaws and need to develop.
you are correct, im merely agreeing with him by saying unless its a top 5 pick then you shouldn't be really expecting someone to improve your defense as a rookie, and even top 5 picks don't pan out right away. prolly bad wording on my part!!!
My position is actually that 1st round picks should be able to start and contribute right away. Yes they will have some flaws and need some development, but not so much so that they cannot start and contribute right away. There are no perfect prospects but there are varying degrees of development that are needed. In my opinion the amount of development that charles harris still needs and his obvious flaws should have seen him picked in the second or third round.
lol...I watch the tape. Just because I ALSO listen to and read experts doesn't make you right. Nearly every scounting report I've seen says he's fast in pursuit. And he is. His top end isn't the best, but again, not many DE's are going to catch a full speed RB from behind. Out of the 58 defensive lineman in last years draft, about 5-6 ran 4.7 or faster. Here are some notable DE times: Barnett: 4.88 Carraway: 4.74 Taco: 4.9 Cox Jr.: 4.89 Garrett: 4.64 Kpassagnon: 4.83 Ledbetter: 4.84 Smoot: 4.77 Thomas: 4.71 4.82 is not well below average. It's average.
I think there's some kind of miscommunication here. You're either mixing up posters hitman, and bigballa, or I missed a post.
Thank you. Why are people generally either tape or stats? Why don't more people realize the importance of both?
It's also a time that you have to realize could be subject to a dude waking up and having a bad day. It's an unfortunate and highly frustrating reality for the evaluator since it's better to have everything straight forward and comparable, but it IS reality. Nobody ever said that job is gonna be easy and in fact the reason the draft is regarded as a "crap shoot" is because that sort of talent evaluation and projection is inherently impossible.
Exactly. I'm no expert and I will rarely call a player "can't miss" based upon only what my eyes see. However, I know what "slow" and "fast" are. I can tell the difference between someone who doesn't know what's going on around them and someone who is smart on the field. However, looking at tape, player stats, and reading what experts are saying about a player will typically get the average person a decent evaluation of a player. Pretending to know what to look for and refusing to listen to what other people say, as a non-expert, isn't a good formula for learning or coming to a good conclusion. The overwhelming majority of experts had Harris going in the 1st round. Are they right? Who knows and time will tell. However, ignoring what they said and going only by some perceived flaws and preseason games will have a less chance of being right.
