Chad Pennington Limiting our Offense? Numbers say otherwise...

"like2god wrote:

If they had larger roles on their respective teams in previous years, then I would agree. But when you have backups moving to starting spots, it doesn't matter who you have at QB, they are most than likely going to have increased production. And keep in mind that none of them had the stats of the top players at their respective positions, they just did better than they had previously.

And the reason why they did better then they had previously was Chad Pennington, not a Jedi Mind Trick, look at those players objectively, 2 UDFA's, a bust of Te and Fasano coming off of a bad shoulder, Ricky not playing 16 games in 4 years.

It was not some conjuration of Dan Henning that those no names produced, Henning has failed at a couple of stops before landing back in Miami.

It also doesn't include homer glasses. :tongue2:

Kool Aid..drink Dolphins Kool Aid..

Our defense wasn't mediocre, we were ranked 9th in points allowed per game, that's pretty well above average or mediocre. I already explained the backups and UDFA's above, and Ronnie Brown was highly successful before last year. Infact most of his best moments on the field last year came when Pennington was lined up at WR, or have we forgotten about the wildcat? :up:

No, Ronnie was never THAT successful L2G, he was a low 1,000 yd back who typically missed games via injuries.

As for the Defense, 9th in points allowed? Upper third in the NFL isn't bad, but as a whole, 25th against the pass, we were better against the run, but not great.

A good to great NFL player elevates the games of those players around him, Penny wasn't slinging the ball to Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne, and yet those guys did perform well, that is on Pennington.

"padre31 wrote:

And the reason why they did better then they had previously was Chad Pennington, not a Jedi Mind Trick, look at those players objectively, 2 UDFA's, a bust of Te and Fasano coming off of a bad shoulder, Ricky not playing 16 games in 4 years.

It was not some conjuration of Dan Henning that those no names produced, Henning has failed at a couple of stops before landing back in Miami.

Kool Aid..drink Dolphins Kool Aid..

No, Ronnie was never THAT successful L2G, he was a low 1,000 yd back who typically missed games via injuries.

As for the Defense, 9th in points allowed? Upper third in the NFL isn't bad, but as a whole, 25th against the pass, we were better against the run, but not great.

A good to great NFL player elevates the games of those players around him, Penny wasn't slinging the ball to Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne, and yet those guys did perform well, that is on Pennington.

No doubt Pennington made everyone around him better. Even the guys who never sniffed the field were made better because they could learn from a true professional in every sense of the word. I would even venture to say that Chad Pennington did more to advance the progress of this team, than can even be proven in his season last year..or next year. The foundation he is laying for others to follow...is beyong priceless to this organization. Which is why it will be extremely important for our staff to promote Henne as soon as they feel he is ready to become the "man". Pennington knows this day is coming...he relishes it. Because he is a team player...and if he knows Henne makes his team better....Chad will support him 100%.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

No doubt Pennington made everyone around him better. Even the guys who never sniffed the field were made better because they could learn from a true professional in every sense of the word. I would even venture to say that Chad Pennington did more to advance the progress of this team, than can even be proven in his season last year..or next year. The foundation he is laying for others to follow...is beyong priceless to this organization. Which is why it will be extremely important for our staff to promote Henne as soon as they feel he is ready to become the "man". Pennington knows this day is coming...he relishes it. Because he is a team player...and if he knows Henne makes his team better....Chad will support him 100%.

I suspect Chad P will be sipping a Mai Tai in Miami next offseason, he's outta here after this season(more then likely), what happens then remains to be seen.

But for this season, if we are going to make a run, Chad Pennington will have the hands on the wheel.

Padre, we've gotten off track. No one is denying that Pennington made players better. We are participating in a thread about whether or not our offense is limited with Penny as the QB. If you're being honest, you would say that he does limit the offense...as he can't utilize the deep ball as it should be utilized. This isn't about who will be QB next season. It will and should be, Pennington. He just can't do some things that onw would like their QB to do.

"resnor wrote:

Padre, we've gotten off track. No one is denying that Pennington made players better. We are participating in a thread about whether or not our offense is limited with Penny as the QB. If you're being honest, you would say that he does limit the offense...as he can't utilize the deep ball as it should be utilized. This isn't about who will be QB next season. It will and should be, Pennington. He just can't do some things that onw would like their QB to do.

I doubt this will ever be resolved resnor, Pennington took a offense choc a block full of castaways and never weres to the AFC East crown and the playoffs, to me that is and always will be the bottom line of our offense.

"padre31 wrote:

And the reason why they did better then they had previously was Chad Pennington, not a Jedi Mind Trick, look at those players objectively, 2 UDFA's, a bust of Te and Fasano coming off of a bad shoulder, Ricky not playing 16 games in 4 years.

It was not some conjuration of Dan Henning that those no names produced, Henning has failed at a couple of stops before landing back in Miami.

The numbers tell me that they benefited greatly from their increased roles. Pennington was their QB, but lets not get carried away with praising their increased production, they really hadn't achieved much up to that point. Now if we still had someone like Chris Chambers and he was able to best his career highs or one of the players mentioned was near the top of the league at their respective positions, then you would have a better argument, but the gains that they made were minimal, save Cammy who had a decent year.

Crowing over those increases would be like a Bills fan coming here to tell us that Edwards is a great QB because Robert Royal had a career year, going from 25 catches and 248 yards to 33 catches and 351 yards. Is Trent Edwards a great QB?

Of course not, the gains that Royal made were minimal and directly comparable to what Fasano and crew had. Those player performed better because they had an increased role. :wink2:

Kool Aid..drink Dolphins Kool Aid..

umm....no. I'm a realist, not an aqua and orange optimist. :pointlol:

No, Ronnie was never THAT successful L2G, he was a low 1,000 yd back who typically missed games via injuries.

Now this one I take great issue with. Ronnie's numbers were not career numbers last year, save his TD total, but that had alot to do with a gimmick play that Pennington had absolutely nothing to do with. While Ronnie was scoring TD's from the wildcat, Pennington was flopping on the ground or running out of bounds. Ronnie was very successful before last year, especially considering the offensive lines that he had to play behind.

Chad's short passing zone (20 yards) allows defenses to cheat against the run and the room with which Ronnie has to work is tighter with less room for error. If Chad was able to consistently work downfield and make opposing teams fear big plays, Ronnie would be much more effective as teams wouldn't be able to focus only on the plays infront of them.

As for the Defense, 9th in points allowed? Upper third in the NFL isn't bad, but as a whole, 25th against the pass, we were better against the run, but not great.

We could have been ranked dead last in the NFL in rushing and passing, but points are the most important stat for the defense. If you can stop the other team from scoring, that's all that matters. Now if you want to look at individual performances, then we can criticize the CB's and S's for the passing stats, but when looking at the defense as a whole, the magic stat is the points allowed number.

A good to great NFL player elevates the games of those players around him, Penny wasn't slinging the ball to Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne, and yet those guys did perform well, that is on Pennington.

But none of those players played near the level of a Clark or Wayne, they had numbers comparible to Robert Royal. If Pennington elevated any of those players to the level of Moss, Welker, Gonzo, Gates, etc, etc, etc then I would give you some credit on this one, but they didn't. Their numbers increase is directly tied to their playing time and role increase, there is no way around that brother.

Did Chad have a hand in their success?

Absolutely, but that doesn't make him a great QB unless you're willing to say that Trent Edwards is a great QB for helping Robert Royal reach career highs that are comparable. :wink2:

Does Pennington limit our offense? Heck yeah. We lose the deep ball, outs, yada yada. We also limit the INTs. God, how many games have we lost in recent memory where a (Fiedler, Feeley, Lucas, Beck, Lemon) pass got intercepted, maybe for a touchdown? I maintain even the HoF Marino may have limited our offense TO AN EXTENT (please put the pitchforks and torches away, thanks) since he was a streak passer who wanted to get into a rhythm. How many runs did Marino audible to? (One of P Manning's strengths in my opinion.) Every QB limits an offense to an extent, some more than others. Every offense is adjusted to the strengths and weaknesses of the QB. I think there is a place for a soft-armed accurate QB who doesn't (usually) throw the game away. The question is, which QB gives us the best chance to win the most games in 2009? I think the FO will give each QB (including Pat White) a look during training camp and pre-season and make that decision. If Chad H turns out to be the best choice for winning game 1 I think the Trifecta would give him the start and Chad P would be his biggest fan. They may even change QB mid-stream during the season (if we have a losing record late in the year I would almost count on it).

And brother (and sister), I would love to see Chad P EXTENDED as a Dolphin. I think after Henne (or White or whoever) takes over as starting QB that Chad could fill the Don Strock memorial veteran backup QB chair and then segue into assistant QB coach and beyond....Who better to step in if your starting QB gets hurt to help not lose the game, all the time providing veteran coaching and leadership.

One thing I ask everyone to remember about Chad P is the DIFFERENCE last season he made. Before Chad P came on board our receivers looked awful. They couldn't catch a cold. Dropped balls. When Chad P arrived suddenly they started looking better. Night and day, as I recall. Maybe Chad H is ready to take the team to the next level. Maybe not yet. I think we'll see in camp and preseason. Until then Chad P is the starter, and I'm cool with that.

Mike, that's what I've been saying all along...

"padre31 wrote:

I doubt this will ever be resolved resnor, Pennington took a offense choc a block full of castaways and never weres to the AFC East crown and the playoffs, to me that is and always will be the bottom line of our offense.

I believe that you play like you practice and practice like you play. Football games are won on the practice field.

Chad Henne, will not (discarding CP injury) win the starting job until he legitimately displaces CP on the practice field. CP has been in the league ten years. You just don't replace that savvy and experience with a second year unproven player unless the challenger is demonstrating Dan Marino like ability.

I believe Chad Pennington, is every bit the player Bob Griese was, if not more. The Miami Dolphins are going into it's second year under a new regime that understands how best to take advantage of the skills and one deficiency of Chad Pennington. This plays right into their hands because it's the style football they would rather play anyway.

"like2god wrote:

They don't do anything to support him as an individual or his game. That's the point. Team stats are highly misleading.

So you don't care that he limits our playbook? After all, that's the whole argument that you seem to be trying to dispel in this thread.

the coach adapts the play book according to the talent available?
in which case Pennington may present a far greater upside thatn downside

"Themole wrote:

I believe that you play like you practice and practice like you play. Football games are won on the practice field.

Chad Henne, will not (discarding CP injury) win the starting job until he legitimately displaces CP on the practice field. CP has been in the league ten years. You just don't replace that savvy and experience with a second year unproven player unless the challenger is demonstrating Dan Marino like ability.

I believe Chad Pennington, is every bit the player Bob Griese was, if not more. The Miami Dolphins are going into it's second year under a new regime that understands how best to take advantage of the skills and one deficiency of Chad Pennington. This plays right into their hands because it's the style football they would rather play anyway.

I said in another post that Chad reminds me of Greise. He plays smart football. I also said Greise was like a field general and took the team down by down, ran down the clock and just did what needed to be done, for the team.

"dolphindebby wrote:

I said in another post that Chad reminds me of Greise. He plays smart football. I also said Greise was like a field general and took the team down by down, ran down the clock and just did what needed to be done, for the team.

I see it like you see it Debbie. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Our front office going into this season will have a scheme based upon what they KNOW we have talent wise. Last year at this time (really until CP became available) I'm sure it was a, let's hope we can get it done with what we have attitude. This year they know they have a winner in CP, and will scheme to his strengths.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

And as of yet...I havent seen any indications that show me Henne cannot play with the same amount of smarts Pennington has. But, let me also add to this...having an arm allows you to take a bit more risks. Chadd Pennington is going to check down more often than not, because he knows he cant make the throw. Chad Henne will probably take those risks...knowing that in alot of those cases, he can connect.

I also offer this:

Chad Pennington has given glowing reviews of Chad Henne. We all know Chad Pennington will be a hell of a coach some day....probably a great offensive co ordinator. Dont you think Chad himself would want to see what Henne can do to open up the play book?

I just dont get why people are so spooked by the idea of Henne possibly being an upgrade...and the fear of finding out if he is.

I'm a firm believer of if it ain't broke don't fix it. If Pennington has a good season and is winning games then keep him in the game. If he gets injures or struggles then Henne comes in. When Henne comes in there will be growing pains. He's going to make mistakes. And he'll probably lose some games. If we get eliminated from the playoffs then let Henne and Pat White play and see what they have. But if Pennington has momentum and is taking us into the post season then let it ride. Don't mess with the chemistry and momentum of the team while it's winning.

"like2god wrote:

That's a rather extreme example to use in order to prove your side of the debate. It's either Pennington or some mindless dolt who can't get out of his own way, but who also hasppens to have a rocket arm. Not a very fair or honest example IMO.

Noone is saying that Pennington is trash, but again I have to disagree with the bold text.

Experience of the WR's has nothing to do with whether we open up the passing game or not. Infact it might benefit a young WR (who doesn't have every NFL route down to a science) to be able to just run a go route, which is the easiest route to run in the whole playbook. There is no benchmark in experience that needs to be met before a team can let their WR's catch a deep pass. That argument simply doesn't fly, the reason we don't pass down the field or run the type of plays that require zip on a pass (Redzone, the Henne video) is because our QB simply can't make those passes.

I'm not claiming that Henne is a rocket armed noodle brain or that we have such a player on the roster. I was thinking more of the Raiders and Jamarcus Russell. It's great having a QB who can hurl it downfield, bu that is not the end all and be all of a QB.

As for experience of the WR's my point is this. We don't have a great receiving corps. Camarillo and Bess are our best receivers. Ginn is coming along but so far hasn't lived up to his hype. Ernest Wilford is a bust. Turner and Hartline are still raw rookies. Brandon London is still a cypher.

Our WR's are not a strength of the team yet. It looks like they have improved but right now our OL, RB and even TE situation is better. We are more suited to a power running game and short to intermediate passing game. I know a lot of you are pining for Marino years but that is not the team we have right now. I feel a lot of the fans here are trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. And it's frustrating to watch.

"like2god wrote:

Our defense wasn't mediocre, we were ranked 9th in points allowed per game, that's pretty well above average or mediocre.

Don't you think the fact that our defensive ranking yards wise was middle of the road, but our points allowed was much better was at least partly due to the fact that our offense very very very rarely turned the ball over? Which puts your defense in bad positions (and will make it seem like the defense is giving up more points even when it's not really their fault). What about the fact that our offense was pretty damn solid at long sustaining drives which helped our time of possession which kept our defense off the field? There's a pretty decent difference in the rankings between the yards our team gave up and points allowed, and I really don't think you're giving enough credit for Chad and the rest of the O for being so mistake free.

"Xeticus wrote:

As for experience of the WR's my point is this. We don't have a great receiving corps. Camarillo and Bess are our best receivers. Ginn is coming along but so far hasn't lived up to his hype. Ernest Wilford is a bust. Turner and Hartline are still raw rookies. Brandon London is still a cypher.

Here is where I have a problem with what you wrote, and it's really the impetus, in my opinion, behind this whole thread. You have people on here who say what you just said about Ginn, and yet defend Pennington by saying that he isn't limiting our offense. The crux of it all is, Ginn CAN'T live up to his hype as a deep threat if we don't have a QB that can throw the necessary ball to exploit his strengths. Pennington cannot throw those balls, and thus, Ginn's production has suffered. I don't mind if people want to say that Pennington is good, blah, blah, blah. I agree. But, you can't on the other hand claim that Ginn hasn't lived up to his hype, as if it's HIS fault. Like has been demonstrated earlier in the thread, Pennington rarely threw over 20 yards last season. Did you bother to watch where Ginn's routes were designed to take him? Out farther than 20 yards...which is also why Bess and Fasano had alot of catches. They were running the shorter routes, while Ginn was running the longer routes.

If you want to see Ginn "live up to his hype" then we need to have a QB in the game that can get him the ball. Unlike you, I am happy with Pennington as our QB, AND I also realize that Ginn has improved each year, and that his numbers are NOT going to be crazy as long as he has Pennington throwing him the ball.

"resnor wrote:

Here is where I have a problem with what you wrote, and it's really the impetus, in my opinion, behind this whole thread. You have people on here who say what you just said about Ginn, and yet defend Pennington by saying that he isn't limiting our offense. The crux of it all is, Ginn CAN'T live up to his hype as a deep threat if we don't have a QB that can throw the necessary ball to exploit his strengths. Pennington cannot throw those balls, and thus, Ginn's production has suffered. I don't mind if people want to say that Pennington is good, blah, blah, blah. I agree. But, you can't on the other hand claim that Ginn hasn't lived up to his hype, as if it's HIS fault. Like has been demonstrated earlier in the thread, Pennington rarely threw over 20 yards last season. Did you bother to watch where Ginn's routes were designed to take him? Out farther than 20 yards...which is also why Bess and Fasano had alot of catches. They were running the shorter routes, while Ginn was running the longer routes.

If you want to see Ginn "live up to his hype" then we need to have a QB in the game that can get him the ball. Unlike you, I am happy with Pennington as our QB, AND I also realize that Ginn has improved each year, and that his numbers are NOT going to be crazy as long as he has Pennington throwing him the ball.

Considering Santana Moss had an 1100 yard season and Laveranues Coles had 1100 and 1250 yard seasons with Chad as their QB I don't think it's too unrealistic to think Ginn can't have a great season with Chad this coming year. All three of those receivers have fairly similar skill sets so I don't think you can put all the blame on Chad if Ginn doesn't blow up this year like a lot of people are predicting.

"Dolfan984 wrote:

Considering Santana Moss had an 1100 yard season and Laveranues Coles had 1100 and 1250 yard seasons with Chad as their QB I don't think it's too unrealistic to think Ginn can't have a great season with Chad this coming year. All three of those receivers have fairly similar skill sets so I don't think you can put all the blame on Chad if Ginn doesn't blow up this year like a lot of people are predicting.

Excellent points 984. If Ted Ginn wants to become a dominate receiver he needs to start thinking and producing like one. Speed is on his side, but running precise patterns at this point in his young career is something he hasn't developed. No one can accuse Howard Twilley, of ever being a speed merchant. He excelled at running precise routes, which created separation not unlike Devon Best(who reminds me of Howard Twilley). Ginn has the tools, does he have the work ethic to stay after class with Chad Pennington and learn the nuances of becoming a top notch WR, our latter-day Paul Warfield? The doubters can remove Chad Pennington from the equation. He has everything he needs to take us back to the SB or even Perfectville. He's that damn good!

"Themole wrote:

I see it like you see it Debbie. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Our front office going into this season will have a scheme based upon what they KNOW we have talent wise. Last year at this time (really until CP became available) I'm sure it was a, let's hope we can get it done with what we have attitude. This year they know they have a winner in CP, and will scheme to his strengths.

True, and Pennington is coming into the season healthy as well as having an entire offseason to absorb the offense, last season he had 2 weeks to learn it and IMO that hurt us in the first Jets game.

In that sense the slow start could be chalked up to Penny holding back the offense early last year, that situation has been corrected though.

Chad Henne's day will come, but only when it is in the Team's best interest, which right now is Chad Pennington is our Starting Qb..poor us.

"padre31 wrote:

True, and Pennington is coming into the season healthy as well as having an entire offseason to absorb the offense, last season he had 2 weeks to learn it and IMO that hurt us in the first Jets game.

In that sense the slow start could be chalked up to Penny holding back the offense early last year, that situation has been corrected though.

Chad Henne's day will come, but only when it is in the Team's best interest, which right now is Chad Pennington is our Starting Qb..poor us.

I think all of that will make a huge difference, myself.
One thing that I remember about Peyton Manning when he was first drafted was that early on he got together with Marvin Harrison to start developing a chemistry with him - it paid off too.
With that in mind I would like to believe that the additional time the full offseason will afford them is going to allow our offense to reap some big benefits.

Ginn running good routes doesn't magically give Pennington a strong enough arm to throw those deep passes.

"resnor wrote:

Ginn running good routes doesn't magically give Pennington a strong enough arm to throw those deep passes.

I didn't say good routes. I said precise routes. Ginn, with his speed, or the slowest receiver on the team running precise routes will afford an accurate QB such as Chad Pennington to hit him in the seems on the short to intermediate range passes, setting up the opportunity for him to break through for long gains.

Well after the turnaround we enjoyed last year, I'll take Penny's "limitations" any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. This year he's had an offseason with no rehab, no surgery, our strength & conditioning program, and David Lee working with him daily. I expect we'll see some more zip on his long ball this season, but even if not, I'm still very thrilled to have Penny at QB for this team.

I am concerned that we are not setting up receivers for a transition to Henne down the road. As much as I like and respect Penny (and I like him a lot), sooner or later the torch will pass and I would hope at that point we would have more than one vertical receiver to stretch the field. Maybe that was the point of bringing Marion and Williams in as UDFAs this year. It normally takes 2-3 years for a receiver to learn how to be a good NFL receiver, right? Maybe we can stash one on the PS (maybe PUP for Marion) and let them mature. Henne's gonna need some speed (more than just Ginn) to take advantage of that arm when he takes the field.

"resnor wrote:

Ginn running good routes doesn't magically give Pennington a strong enough arm to throw those deep passes.

And sarcasm isn't necessary to get your point across.
With that said, Pennington can throw deep passes - that shouldn't even be up for debate. What Pennington lacks is velocity on those deep passes.
Nonetheless, Ginn running precise routes will help him get the separation needed to give him opportunity for YAC.