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Chad Pennington Limiting our Offense? Numbers say otherwise...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MonstBlitz, May 21, 2009.

  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Reread my post

    I didn't say you, I said the people on the otherside of the debates that you brought up out of the blue to use as strawman arguments. They have nothing to do with the conversation and I took exception to the "people who idolized Beck but have nothing but disdain for Chad" comment, it was a total mischaracterization of our position, but something that gets dredged up time and time again. Wanting to see this team get the most out of its players is not a case of idol worship, it's wanting to see the team and it's players succeed. Pointing out real limitations of a player isn't disdain, it's a legit criticism.

    Then again, lets not overlook this...

    :up:

    Which is pointless in the context of this thread. So because you were right on a few points, that somehow gives your side of the argument on Chad some credibility? I'm not following the rational in even bringing those other conversations up.

    I could do the same thing, I was right when I said that Green was susceptible to sustaining another concussion, I said that Ronnie wasn't a bust, that Ginn wasn't a bust, that Taylor would be traded, that Cam would find another job in the NFL when so many folks said noone would touch him. I said McCown would be released, I said we wouldn't draft Ryan, that we wouldn't touch Chad Johnson, Haynesworth, Jones, etc.......what does any of that have to do with this conversation? :confused2:

    You mischaracterized the position of the people who said "Chad limits our offense because of his lack of arm strength" and the numbers that you posted were irrelevent to that conversation. They were team numbers that the runningbacks contributed to, so how are we supposed to gauge Chad's arm strength based on those numbers and a comparison over the past few years?

    The point is that Chad doesn't throw the ball deep because he doesn't feel comfortable making those throws, he doesn't attempt passes that he knows he can't make. Long plays, deep routes, plays that stretch the defense aren't being used because Chad can't make the passes, hence "Chad limits our offense". That's a huge chunk of our playbook that isn't being used and it has a negative impact on his teammates, Ronnie and Ginn are two great examples.

    Which completely ignores the point that people are making and the point that you are addressing in a roundabout way. Hence the strawman comment. I don't know anyone here who would say that Chad isn't the best QB that we've had since Marino, I also don't know of many people who would say that the QB's we had prior were any good. So the point that you were making in your first post was obvious and it did nothing to refute the knock on Pennington's arm that we've brought up time and time again.

    When the president of a company sits down to evaluate how a particular manager and his department are doing, he doesn't look at overall numbers that include the production and profit from all of his workers throughout the company, he looks at specific numbers from that manager and the job that he does.

    Instead of looking at team numbers, I posted very specific and the most relevent numbers that defended my position and proved that Chad doesn't attempt many passes over 20 yards, that he's very efficient because his field of play is much smaller than that of a Jay Cutler, and the fact that his "comfort zone" is within 20 yards and it has a negative impact on the running game because teams cheat against the run and don't have to worry about a ball going over their head for 6. Using general stats is misleading and faulty.

    If I was going to make a case that Will Allen either hurt or helped our secondary in the passing game last year, would I post stats for QB hurries and sacks, or would I post stats on passes defended, INT and catches allowed? Again, general team stats aren't specific enough and some stats are just meaningless to the debate because they don't address the original point. In the case of "Pennington limits our offense" team stats don't address his arm, the type of passes that he throws or how defenses play against us. Those limitations do impact our overall offensive numbers and the play of his teammates, that's something that you don't see when you just focus on overall numbers and comparisons from the past 10 years.

    Again, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to pull numbers and make the comparison, but the numbers have nothing to do with the argument that people have been making. As Marty pointed out, there are alot of numbers here within this thread that support the fact that Chad has a weak arm and it limits our offense. I'm open to seeing other numbers that will refute that claim if they exist, but they have to be specific and address the claim people are making, general team stats don't do that.
     
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  2. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    How many injuries to his shoulder/arm has he suffered since then? That's something that you have to factor in, as well as level of competition and specific game splits to see if he threw the ball deep or if Moss was turning 10-20 yard passes into big gains. Again people are ignoring the frequency in which Pennington attempts long passes versus that of other QB's around the league, Chad just doesn't attempt passes that he knows that he can't make.

    Jay Fiedler went to an Ivy League school, what's the point? GPA doesn't mean that a player is going to succeed. Of course it helps, but it's not a definitive way of weeding out the good players from the bad ones.

    Other things factor into that as well, not just Chad's arrival. We focused on upgrading the LT spot that none of the other QB's had the luxury of playing behind, we used a gimmick play to gain an advantage against opposing teams, again something that the other QB's didn't have. We brought in Smiley to help the OL, we changed our offense to focus more on the running game than we had in the past, we improved the defense and didn't have players playing out of position or suffer major injuries on that side of the ball....all of that goes into the 11-5 record.

    No need for superman, again that's an extreme example that characterizes strong armed QB's as overgrown oafs that can't get out of their own way and Chad as a cerebral game manager who is more of an asset. Manning, Brady, Warner, etc are all smart QB's with strong arms, all of them are better than Pennington and none of them wear a red cape. :wink2:
     
  3. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    These points were brought up to somebody else who said you were "pwning" this debate. I merely pointed out that lengthy posts don't necessarily = "pwning" and pointed out some cases to illustrate the point.

    When people continually point out a player's weaknesses and state over and over again that he limits our offense, this is clearly indicating that those people are not happy with the QB and in not so many words stating that somebody else should be the QB of this team. Some people have been even more blatant saying Chad is only a stopgap, has a noodle arm, can't beat good defenses, is still just a JET, etc. My argument was meant to show what Chad has done for us on an overall level. And I felt it was worth bringing up after reading so many negative points about Pennington, and very little postive about a QB who led us to an AFC East championship.

    I'm sure you and others will deny this, but I'll say it anyway. I think the biggest reason yourself and others continually nitpick Chad's arm strength, pulling stat after stat to prove it, all while paying little respect to the overall accomplishments of the player or acknowledging his strenghts is that there is an unwillingness to admit you might have been wrong about him. That it wasn't a mistake to sign him. That maybe he is more than a stopgap QB. maybe the only reason we criticized him as a JET was the same reason we criticize Brady. Because he was a very good player on a rival team.

    Maybe I'm way off. But if I've learned anything from our debates, I'm not going to change your mind on the issue and you're not going to change mine. You will continue to look at this as a debate that should be about Chad Pennington's arm strength when I intended it to be about his overall effectiveness as the leader of our offense. I have already conceded Chad doesn't have the strongest arm in the league. But I think he's a great QB for our offense and we're lucky to have him for however long that may be.
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Eh, Andy Kent was just on Dolphins Tonight talking about Penny throwing a nice 40 yd out to Ted Ginn at the OTA's.

    I'm hoping two years of health will perk up Penny's arm a bit, I suspect it will.

    As for the back and forth, I must say I prefer heading into 2009 with Pennington at the helm of the Offense over Henne.

    But I look forward to Henne's chance to play, or White's.

    Pat White is as explosive as a Acme Handgrenade, he'll be fun to watch.
     
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  5. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Mat was being sarcastic, it wasn't meant as a slam.

    That couldn't be further from the truth. I never once said that I didn't like Pennington or that I thought he should be replaced before the FO felt it was necessary. With that said, the FO has given indications that Henne is going to get a real shot next year and that would leave Pennington on the outside looking in.

    Pointing out a flaw in a player is just that, you shouldn't read anything more into it.

    Things that we all said when he was in NY, some people continue to point that out and others ignore it because he's on our team, rather they choose to point to his game management as a strength. Chad had a weak arm in NY, his arm strength limited his effectiveness against good defenses and hindered the play of his teammates, the same thing happened here last year as I pointed out. Does that mean that I don't like him? Hardly, as you'll see in a second.

    But what you fail to see is that his limitations do effect the offense overall. I'll use Ronnie as an example, opposing defenses don't have to worry about plays longer than 20 yards, they don't need to concern themselves with the ball going over their head for 6, they can focus on the plays infront of them, shortening the field and tightening up on the running game. Ronnie has less room to run because the defense cheats looking to stop the run. This isn't something new, this is exactly what we all said when he was a Jet, things didn't change once he put on a Dolphins jersey and it shouldn't be looked at as hatred.

    Total nonsense. Go back and reread my posts from before he was even released by the Jets, I mentioned him as a possible FA pickup (if the rumors at the time were true), and I caught some guff for it. But I also pointed out the fact that he didn't have a strong arm and that he was a good game manager who was efficient within his zone.

    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=34355&postcount=171
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=34936&postcount=31
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=45140&postcount=15
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=45841&postcount=7
    http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?p=34951&highlight=pennington#post34951

    Please don't make assumptions

    Again, pointing out a flaw in a player isn't hatred, you seem to be trying to paint that picture. Facts are facts and stats back up everything that I've said, pointing that out is honest discussion. I see some people giving Chad all of the credit for our record last year and for the "career years" of some of our players, but last year's record was a team effort and the record 2 years ago was an anomoly due to injuries, traded players and players playing out of position. The turnaround really wasn't as improbable as people make it appear, the 2007 team wasn't as bad as their record indicated, they just had some unlucky breaks (literally).

    When people make the case that his arm strength is lacking and it limits the O and then you start a thread titled "Chad Pennington limiting our offense? Numbers say otherwise"....it seems as though you are addressing those folks and trying to refute their argument, no?

    And like I said earlier, his limitations do limit his overall effectiveness and the overall effectiveness of our offense. All the numbers indicate is that our offense is better than it was under Fiedler and the rest of the castoffs, but you have to look deeper in order to understand how Chad has done, how it impacts the play of his teammates and how defenses play against us. We don't have an effective playaction game, that's a pretty big limitation IMO.

    Now is Jake Delhomme a better QB than Chad? Of course not, but if you only look at the overall team numbers and compare them, the Panthers offense was better than ours. One could make the case, if they ignored individual stats, that Delhomme is the better QB, but it wouldn't be an honest assessment of the teams or the players.

    Look at it this way, when Ronnie was playing behind the poor OL's of a few years ago, we all knew that he was being limited and that he could achieve much more if we had the ability to maximize his talents. Correct? I don't think I'll get many, if any, arguments on that one. Now that we have what some seem to think is an improved OL, one of the best that we've had (in their opinion), they think that Ronnie is going to do much better. The same is true of Chad and our offense, Chad limits what we can do on the field, his limitations mean that Ginn isn't being used properly and that Ronnie isn't going to find the running room that he would have with a QB who could stretch the field. That's all anyone is saying, I don't see anyone here trying to run him out of town on a rail, characterizing it that way is wrong and a dishonest argument (strawman).
     
  6. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=276291&postcount=112

    :confused:
     
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  7. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    First, just about any downside Chad has to his game revolves around his arm strength. Chad Pennington with Chad Hennes arm would be the best qb in this league bar none. Better than Brady, Manning, and quite possibly one of the best ever. So any discussion as to how he limits an offense, HAS to involve arm strength. Arm strength is a major part of an NFL QB. It has to be when your margin for error is so marginal. Greater arm strength means you dont nees linemen to hold their blocks as long, receivers dont need as much seperation. But reduced arm strength diminishes your margin for error, as does bad decision making. You have to admit, however, that arm strength improves the running game as well. Safeties ARE not afraid of getting beat deep by Chad, they just arent. The closer to the los they play, the worse it is for the running game. It also allows for a more agressive defensive scheme. Youll see more cover ones against Chad. Chad was the right qb for us last season. I think the team is close to taking the next step, deeper into the playoffs, and thats where his arm strength becomes a much bigger issue, IMO.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
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  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Funny looking back at the reactions to bringing Pennington here.

    Especially from me:

    That's from late 07 early 08

    August 2008.

    Fun stuff, sometimes I think we take ourselves too seriously.
     
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  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Take a look at the dates on those, then go back to my posts. What's the difference?

    The difference is that I said Chad would be a good backup to Beck when the thought process was still that we were a rebuilding team in year one of an overhaul. Once talk became that Pennington was going to be handed the job and we were going to target old Parcells castoffs like Terry Glenn and Keyshawn Johnson I objected (and objected loudly) to rushing a rebuild and bringing in aging players at the end of their career who would be blocking our young guys. I believe very strongly in a proper rebuild and the thought of rushing it was something that I was totally against, that's how Parcells ruined the Jets and I didn't want to see it happen here. So I was objecting to Pennington under that premise, obviously that sort of rebuild didn't take place, so the statement was irrelevent.

    My very next post in that thread
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=276295&postcount=113

    And I stand by my statement that we weren't a playoff team, we had an easy schedule and if Brady was healthy the Phins would have been watching the playoffs from home. We caught a few breaks, our record in '07 wasn't indicative of the kind of team that the Phins were, and the same can be said about last year, just at the opposite end of the spectrum. Which team in year one of a true rebuild considers themselves a playoff contender?
     
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  10. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Debating with you is pointless if you can't even admit you were wrong in the face of facts. Injuries are a factor every year. Obviously we were a playoff team because it happened. I'll admit, not many of us saw it coming. It was a rare few that even acknowledged it was a possibility. But it happened. You were wrong. It's ok to admit it. We've all been there.
     
  11. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I wasn't wrong, I was looking at the team from the perspective of a rebuilding team. What rebuilding team considers themselves a playoff contender? Then you have to factor in injuries, our biggest rival and the best team in our division (maybe football) lost its most important player, we caught a huge break.

    If I can say that the '07 team wasn't as bad as the record indicated without you objecting, why can't I apply the same logic to last years team as well?
     
  12. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    All the words in the world won't change the fact that a football team that made the playoffs = a playoff team. On the same token, a team that went 1-15 is a 1-15 team.
     
  13. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Not exactly, the '07 team had much more talent than their record indicated, the problem was that we suffered several major injuries. Ronnie was lost, Green was out, Zach was knocked out, Hill was put on IR, even Ricky went down with an injury in his short lived comeback. Did we end up with a 1-15 record? Absolutely, but was that a 1-15 team based on the talent of the team? No it wasn't, that was not a Detroit Lions type team, injuries killed us.

    The same can be said about last years team as well, we had an easy schedule due in part to the Pats losing Brady. Yes we made the playoffs, but looking at the talent on that team we really had no business in the playoffs, as evidenced by the way the Ravens rolled over us with little problem. We were a rebuilding team who took advantage of an easy schedule and a gimmick play and we were exposed against Baltimore. Look at what the Pats were able to accomplish with Cassel lining up behind center, had Brady been healthy we would have had to find comfort in 2nd place and talk about progress. I've said this for a while now, it's nothing new.

    I do find it curious though that this is the first time I've ever had anyone disagree that the '07 team wasn't as bad as their record indicated.
     
  14. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You've just given one of the reasons why Chad is an excellent QB. You can't say the same about, say, Favre.

    Obviously not. My point was that his unusual strength is in his brain, not his admittedly average arm. Smart veterans compensate for their imperfections and play well within their limitations. GPA is a good indicator of the ability to learn.


    Still, the 11-5 record would probably not have been possible without Chad's leadership and presence. I'm not saying that Chad was the only factor, but I am saying that he was a very important factor.


    Whoa, there, pardner. The oaf thing is your idea, not mine, and I'll have you know that Superman is extremely cerebral; smarter than even Lex Luthor. I didn't say that it wouldn't be great if Pennington had a catapult for an arm, or that he's better than Manning, Brady, Warner, etc, or that any of them are not smart, too. I never compared Chad to other quarterbacks. Of course there are smart ones with strong arms who are better than he is; the question is how many. What I'm saying is that none of them play for the Dolphins and that Chad, using the tools and skill set to which he is admittedly limited, had a heck of a season last year, and that the average arm is something he worked around. You have to admire that.

    I wonder: Do you think the red cape would be part of the uniform, so that it would be legal to tackle Superman by it?
     
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  15. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I didn't say that. I said they were a 1-15 team. It happened. It's in the books . It's fact. The 2008 Dolphins were a playoff team. It happened. Again a fact.

    It must be fun living in your fantasy world where circular reasoning means you are never wrong.

    I'd love to stay up all night and try and prove other facts wrong. Maybe if we worked at it, we could prove the Earth is flat. But I need to get to bed.
     
  16. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Favre was horrible in his last few seasons, that shouldn't be indicative of his whole career though. He went from being a smart QB who could gun it just about anywhere to a QB who was making ridiculous throws to compensate for his declining skills and poor surroundings.

    I think Chad does an excellent job with the gifts that he has, but "excellent" in that sense doesn't translate to top tier QB IMO, that tier is reserved for the Brady's and Manning's of the NFL.

    Gotcha, that I can agree with. :hi5:

    Without a doubt he was, but there were several factors in how we ended up where we did, just pointing that out. :wink2:

    That's what I took from this statement.

    Maybe I read it wrong, but it seems as though it was either one or the other (strength or smarts).

    I do and I've credited him for it since he was in NY and I had BwanaZulia (Jets fan) yucking it up when the Jets beat Miami, but I was always quick to point out his limitations as well. :wink2:

    Defenders wouldn't get the chance, he can leap small buildings you know. :pointlol:
     
  17. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Keep the conversation civil or it will end here. You can disagree with me all you like, but to take that route is uncalled for and not what this site is about.
     
  18. mikethewreck

    mikethewreck just a fan...

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    Looking at the National Football Post, I came upon a table that surprised me. I updated and corrected it based on databasefootball.com.
    Here it is:
    Top 10 2008 YPA QBs
    Rank Name YPA TD INT Rating
    1 Philip Rivers 8.39 34 11 105.5
    2 Matt Schaub 8.01 15 10 92.7
    3 Drew Brees 7.98 34 17 96.2
    4 Jake Delhomme 7.94 15 12 84.7
    5 Matt Ryan 7.93 16 11 87.7
    6 Chad Pennington 7.67 19 7 97.4
    7 Tony Romo 7.66 26 14 91.4
    8 Kurt Warner 7.66 30 14 96.9
    9 Aaron Rodgers 7.53 28 13 93.8
    10 Jay Cutler 7.40 25 18 86.0

    YPA is an indication of how much yardage each attempt you get out of the passing game. You can maximize it with lots of deep passes, or a high completion percentage. With the second highest passer rating in the list, Chad did it with accuracy. His INTs were 3 less than the second lowest (Schaub). He put the ball in the receivers hands and not on the ground or in the opponents (until the playoff game but that was a great D that did that). Definitely not the best QB performance in the league, but by far from the worst.
     
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  19. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    The world is flat.

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-History-Twenty-first-Century/dp/0374292884"]Amazon.com: The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century: Thomas L. Friedman: Books[/ame]
     
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  20. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    TALL buildings, bro.
     
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  21. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll take a starting QB with a rating in the high 90s for NOTHING any day. Cackle, cackle, yuk, yuk, OMG, the JETS are so STUPID... (no offense meant, 124, wherever you are).
     
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  22. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Doh!

    Not a fan of superman :oops:
     
  23. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, but I apologize if I offended you.

    That being said, if you're going to accuse me of using strawman arguments I have to call you on circular reasoning.
     
  24. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Pennington is the RealDeal
     
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  25. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    It was nice reading Omar's posts about Chad at the OTA's. Seems he was on target all the time. Eric Green managed to pick him off once by stepping front of Ginn. But other than that he was very accurate.

    It was also interesting reading about Pat White. Supposedly he's the anti Pennington. Tremendous arm strength and a tendency to overthrow a bit. His best throw is the deep ball. Sounds to me like we have the winning White to Ginn combo ready to roll this year.
     
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  26. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    latest cyber poll gives Chad the Greater a significant edge over Chad the Lesser:
    85 % of fans surveyed go with Pennington
    the job is his to lose & he wants to play football
    this is not about what Henne does in training camp, but how Pennington plays this year
    any speculation on 2009 is moot
    & for those looking to 2010,
    that will depend on the Pennington Renaissance
    we'll know by the end of November of this season
     
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  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think this thread is an opportune time to point out only 2 dolphins Qb's have thrown for more then 3,500 yds

    Dan Marino
    Chad Pennington.
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Just think how much he would of thrown if he didn't hold back the offensive playbook with his arm.
     
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  29. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Gosh, you guys are right. What's the point in throwing for 3500 yards if you can't throw a sweet post pattern? He should just knock it off with all those effective drives and first down throws. If he can't throw a pretty 60 yard pass then what's the point of even playing the game? Overall numbers don't matter at all. A QB's effectiveness should only be measured by how long a pass he can throw, and how hard he can throw it. Couldn't John Beck throw the ball 100 yards sitting down? Why'd we ever get rid of that guy?

    Sarcasm off.
     
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  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I guess it is nice to have blinders on and believe that Pennington is perfect without any flaws. I hear if you rub a 1 dollar bill on Pennington's face it turns into a hundred.
     
  31. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    The point is even with his flaws he's still better than 90% of QB's. Pennington is better than all QB's than the very elite ones like Peyton or Brady. If he had the arm to match he would be Peyton or Brady.
     
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  32. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    but that is not the premise of this thread.I have yet to see anyone argue against your point..
     
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  33. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Not once have I said Pennington doesn't have any flaws.

    But in case you're wondering, it is really nice to appreciate a player and the production he brings to the position rather than to constantly nitpick his flaws with backhanded remarks about arm strength.
     
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  34. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Touch, not arm strength, is a QB's best asset...

    I guess we can all say that Joe Montana limited the San Fran Offense with Rice and Taylor...

    We all know that Joe did not have a cannon for an arm, but he was accurate and smart enough to know where to go with the football...

    Four Super Bowls and many Post Season wins... his best passes were to 10-20 yards crossing patterns to Rice and to his tailbacks... where they would take it to the house or just big plays...

    Here is an article by a PRETTY GOOD STRONG ARM QB in his days...You might remember him....Troy Aikman...some snippets...

    http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1452159
    Its short but interesting...

    anyways it is a view of one strong arm QB...

    one point that I would agree to...that a a lack of strong arm does not hinder a QB...and it is not his best asset...

    Troy also stated that flat passes rarely make it to the receiver, and oh I have read and seen many posts here that states that we need a QB that can deliver a bullet...

    Give Penny a talented team like Joe had in his days with San Fran, and Penny's trip to the BIG DANCE will be a lot easier...

    So we all know Penny is pretty darn accurate and puts an excellent TOUCH on his passes...

    But... IMO Penny so far has lacked the uncanny ability that Joe had, that is to bring his team from behind so many times to wins games... that is a trait that we really have not seen from Penny, at least consistently enough...

    From just understanding this article, Penny is DEFINITELY NOT LIMITING our Offense...due to a lack of arm strength...

    Don't take it from me... but from a pretty good strong arm QB...
     
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  35. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO it's not accurate to say that CP limits the offense but it is accurate to say that he doesn't maximize every aspect of the offense. I've seen CP not attempt passes to open WRs b/c of his arm strength deficiencies. Basically, having less arm strength means you have less of a window to time up your passes with. That means that some yards/scores are left on the table. That being said, I think CP is a great QB and it should be his job to lose not just this year but probably next as well.
     
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  36. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    OK....heres a question Id like to know.

    You have two choices at QB.

    1) Chad Pennington with his current arm strength.

    2) Chad Pennington with an arm like Chad Henne.

    Which one would you choose to build your team around? 1? 2? Or would it not matter in your opinion because both Chad's make the correct decisions and are extremely accurate QB's.

    A) Choice 1
    B) Choice 2
    C) Doesnt Matter, either one suits me fine.
     
  37. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Rafael, no disrepsect, please don't take it as such...

    Generally speaking strong arm QBs tend to put less arc on their passes, relaying on there arm rather than their touch/timing. From what I have read on Parcell, Sporano or Ireland have said, they first look at QBs for their accuracy then their ability to lead...

    I am kind of sure that the same way that we see Penny miss WR because of his arm strength or lack their of, many strong arm QB have missed WR because they threw it to hard or with lack of accuracy...

    Hopefully Henne will be a total package as his time to hit the field gets closer, but right now the FO is trying to give Penny as many skill position players to help him be successfull, that being a talented OL, RBs, DL Secondary and WR corps...

    With that talent, it is up to Penny to move this team past a 1 game Post Season apperance...
     
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  38. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You left out our 3rd QB... but he is just a rookie...

    I take choice 1...with a little more mustard...

    My reasoning, would be is that Penny knowing his limitations is playing with his smarts...

    Give him a cannon arm, what would that do to his analytical thought process??? Remember a QB's first trait is smarts and IMO, the second trait of a strong arm QB most likely... I feel Penny would make mistakes trying to do the same things that most strong arm QBs do, think that they can put in there...

    I expect that Penny will have a little stronger arm this year, since his Off Season program would be tailered to that strength. Since there has been no rehab this year on his throwing shoulder from surgery, I kind of feel that his regimen is to build that arm strenth...

    Can he throw 60 yards low spiral??? Probably not, but he will have more zip to his passes...
     
  39. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't disagree with what you're saying, unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning. The reason I said that CP is a great QB is b/c I consider accuracy to be the most important physical characteristic and decision making the most important mental characteristic for a QB. CP has both of those in spades. What he doesn't have is the ability to gun some passes in there consistently. For example, if he's throwing a deep out he has to throw it a bit sooner to allow the pass enough time to get there within the passing window. A stronger armed QB could throw it later and still hit the window. The result is that sometimes although WRs get open CP will not throw the ball b/c he didn't see it soon enough to get the ball in the window. That's an area where CP's skill set does not maximize the offense.
     
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  40. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    cmon now, that's not a fair statement from you in this thread. You invited this discussion with your thread title. And I have to think you knew full well what you were going to see in response.
     
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