Chad Pennington Limiting our Offense? Numbers say otherwise...

"like2god wrote:

Wow, Kurt Warner's numbers are absolutely amazing inside the 20 :scared:

Kurt Warner is a very good QB. he doesn't get the respect his skills deserve. He's led a couple of teams to the super bowl for a reason.

"padre31 wrote:

Not neccessarily Resnor, Ginn has to adjust his game to Pennington's game, granted that is a bit like using a Ferrari to move out of an apartment, but in the long run it will help Ginn's development.

By your own analogy, he IS being hindered. I already have said that Pennington is helping Ginn develop better route running skills. However, if Pennington doesn't possess the arm to properly utilize Ginn's attributes, and he doesn't, then he is hampering Ginn's game. If Ginn has to adapt to Pennington, and run shorter routes in order to get balls thrown his way, then Pennington is indeed holding our offense back, as instead of having a QB that throw the ball long to Ginn, he has to throw it short, and hope to have Ginn break tackles and get yards after catch.

You can pretty it up however you want, but the fact is, Ginn can't be properly used, as a deep threat, with Pennington as the QB. This is not to say that Pennington isn't good, and that Pennington hasn't greatly helped our team. He has. He just can't do as much for our team as a QB with a strong arm could do.

I think some of you are arguing the wrong thing, by saying penny limits our offense, it is the same as saying a small person is limited in basketball as he can not dunk as easily, etc. It is not the same as saying said basketball player is a hinderance to our offense. Obviously penny is a good qb. But obviously he is not very good downfield.He just does not have it physically.

First and foremost...Im not posting this to say that Chad Henne will be as good as Dan Marino. But, these two minutes highlight exactly what a strong arm can do for you in the offense...remember when Marino was QB and it was 3rd and Long...did you ever feel like...man..there's no chance we convert this. Now...remember last season when we had third and long...it was almost like...crud, we might as well punt now. An arm opens up the passing game in soooo many ways....you cant coach an arm. But, an arm alone doesnt mean squat, you have to make the correct decisions. Jim Drukenmiller had a cannon, but a 5 cent head. Chad Henne is nowhere close to being as inept as Drukenmiller....he's got a great QB head, the confidence and the arm. In my opinion....theres no reason Chad Henne cannot make plays like this...Chad Pennington will NEVER be able to..because of physical limitations.....

Oh..and notice...very few of these throws would be considered a deep bomb....even the first TD has a flatter trajectory with distance that allows the reciever to never break stride.....imagine Ginn never having to break stride...

And at 1:39 secs of that......that play is never..NEVER possible without an arm....

Edit: Im also adding a throw Chad Henne made his junior year I believe....you absolutley cannot make this throw..or teach this throw. Its not a bomb...but it shows EXACTLY what a QB with an arm can do...watch how the ball hits the reciever high in his hands...on a thread...and hits him in stride. If you arc this throw, and dont get any zip, you get your WR killed

YouTube - CH to AA connection.

YouTube - Dan Marino

"unluckyluciano wrote:

I think some of you are arguing the wrong thing, by saying penny limits our offense, it is the same as saying a small person is limited in basketball as he can not dunk as easily, etc. It is not the same as saying said basketball player is a hinderance to our offense. Obviously penny is a good qb. But obviously he is not very good downfield.He just does not have it physically.

Yes, a small person IS limited in basketball. It's much harder for a small person to make it to the NBA than for a big, strong, tall guy. That's just the way it is. Similarly, while Pennington is a great QB for us, you simply CANNOT ignore the fact, or explain it away, that Pennington's arm strength hampers the deep threat for our team. Teams aren't terribly afraid of getting beat deep by our offense, which is one of the reasons why our running game suffered so much last year. Why do you think that having Pat White in the Wildcat is such a great thing, potentially? It's because his arm strength will force teams to NOT crowd the box because they will have to worry about the deep ball. When Penny is in the game, no one is worried about the deep ball.

"unluckyluciano wrote:

I think some of you are arguing the wrong thing, by saying penny limits our offense, it is the same as saying a small person is limited in basketball as he can not dunk as easily, etc. It is not the same as saying said basketball player is a hinderance to our offense. Obviously penny is a good qb. But obviously he is not very good downfield.He just does not have it physically.

It's all relative. By saying he "limits" our offense, yes he does, to a certain extent. But I think we could say just about every QB in the league "limits" their team in a certain way.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are not the most mobile QB's, and they certainly are not going to win any foot races against LB's to gain many first downs. Therefore, they are limiting their offenses in this way.

Pennington may not have the deep ball, but he does other things extremely well. Many of which make him a better QB than those who can throw the deep pass.

"HardKoreXXX wrote:

It's all relative. By saying he "limits" our offense, yes he does, to a certain extent. But I think we could say just about every QB in the league "limits" their team in a certain way.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are not the most mobile QB's, and they certainly are not going to win any foot races against LB's to gain many first downs. Therefore, they are limiting their offenses in this way.

Pennington may not have the deep ball, but he does other things extremely well. Many of which make him a better QB than those who can throw the deep pass.

Well there in lies my point, I can be limiting in so far as its a good or bad thing, or I can be limiting in so far as its just not possible. I think people are seeing limiting and automatically assuming its a bad thing. I don't necessarily think it is a hinderance that penny limits the offense in that there is a deep threat as you stated he can make up for it in different ways.......

I remember reading some stats from this past season comparing some QBs to Pennington. I think it was Favre and someone else and surprisingly, Pennington had the most pass completions of 20+ yards. ;)

May I ask why we would ever compare any other qb to Marino?
There's never been, nor will there ever be another like him. He was unique in his style, talent and attitude. He wasn't afraid of any one on the field. (probably off the field as well) Plus, he had the ego needed to be on the top.

Call me a Marino homer, I am admittedly, but it just doesn't seem fair to compare his talent to others. IMO, he is in a class by himself.:yes:

Just to re iterate...I wasnt comparing Henne at all to Marino...I just wanted to show what type of throws someone with an arm could make. I also wanted to highlight that a strong arm does not mean they can throw a deep bomb well. I also added Henne's highlight to the mix...

"vt_dolfan wrote:

Just to re iterate...I wasnt comparing Henne at all to Marino...I just wanted to show what type of throws someone with an arm could make. I also wanted to highlight that a strong arm does not mean they can throw a deep bomb well. I also added Henne's highlight to the mix...

Yup, and that video of Henne is a good example of a throw that we don't have in our offensive arsenal. :knucks:

But, not having that throw doesn't hold our offense back.../sarcasm

YouTube - miami dolphins -Chad Pennington

accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy 2:50 in this video damnit

I think it is pertinent to point out that P Cobbs, Greg C, DMart, Tony Fasano, all set career highs, as did Ted Ginn, and Ronnie Brown made his first pro bowl with Pennington as the Qb.

The only starter who did not set a career high was Ricky Williams and he was a part time starter and had a 1,800 yd season on his resume.

That would seem to undecut the argument that Pennington is some sort of limited roadblock for our offense, if anything he was a catalyst for across the board improvements.

Seriously? Ginn had his best year? Big deal...his first year was under Cameron, with complete trash at QB. If he hadn't had a better year last year than the year before, there would be something dramatically wrong. Camarillo and Fasono had career years? Great. They should have, in an offense that was tailored to the routes they are good at running.

Pointing out that some players who didn't play much for other teams set career highs isn't really saying anything.

Bottom line, the Dolphins have almost zero vertical passing attack with Pennington in there. If you don't think that is limiting the offense, I don't know what to tell you. No one is saying that Pennington didn't do really well, and that the Dolphins didn't do really well. All anyone is saying is that once we have a QB in the game that can stretch the field, this offense is going to be sick. I don't think that anyone would call our current offense "sick."

I'd rather have Pennington with his limited arm than some rocket armed noodle brain who can throw it all the way downfield only to have it intercepted or doesn't have the sense to avoid a sack.

EVERY PLAYER HAS STRENGTHS AND LIMITATIONS. Pennington has limited arm strength. And he's still good enough to be a franchise caliber QB. Good coaches get the most out of their player's strengths. And with our strong RB's, our young and talented OL Pennington is the perfect guy to command our offense.

Now next year after our new WR's have gotten some experience we might be ready for a more wide open passing game. We're not there yet. So Pennington is exactly what we need now.

"Xeticus wrote:

I'd rather have Pennington with his limited arm than some rocket armed noodle brain who can throw it all the way downfield only to have it intercepted or doesn't have the sense to avoid a sack.

EVERY PLAYER HAS STRENGTHS AND LIMITATIONS. Pennington has limited arm strength. And he's still good enough to be a franchise caliber QB. Good coaches get the most out of their player's strengths. And with our strong RB's, our young and talented OL Pennington is the perfect guy to command our offense.

Now next year after our new WR's have gotten some experience we might be ready for a more wide open passing game. We're not there yet. So Pennington is exactly what we need now.

Again....

Quit it with the Id rather have Pennington than some "rocket armed noodle brain" arguments. Chad Henne is NOT one of those at all....nobody is saying to replace Pennington with a Jim Druckenmiller/Jeff George clone...for gods sake...at least make an argument that makes some sense!!!!

"Dolfan984 wrote:

YouTube - miami dolphins -Chad Pennington

accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy 2:50 in this video damnit

So....your saying Chad Henne is not an accurate QB?

Do you have one shred of evidence to even make this argument?

"Xeticus wrote:

I'd rather have Pennington with his limited arm than some rocket armed noodle brain who can throw it all the way downfield only to have it intercepted or doesn't have the sense to avoid a sack.

EVERY PLAYER HAS STRENGTHS AND LIMITATIONS. Pennington has limited arm strength. And he's still good enough to be a franchise caliber QB. Good coaches get the most out of their player's strengths. And with our strong RB's, our young and talented OL Pennington is the perfect guy to command our offense.

Now next year after our new WR's have gotten some experience we might be ready for a more wide open passing game. We're not there yet. So Pennington is exactly what we need now.

A lot of folks should agree with your post, I think it's pretty good. :hi5: I'm sure the coach won't start anyone like that so no worries there.

If play action can actually "mean" something, Penny might get the separation he needs to have/see before he will chuck it longer with confidence and success. He had the most fun of his career last year. He's been working on strength and fundamentals. His body is as healed as it's ever been and we have made a genuine effort to place him, and us in a position to succeed. His fastest receiver is coming into the traditional breakout year. His best running back is operating with a recovered knee, and promise his best year to date. The line "should" be improved in the middle, with Jake coming up on a traditional big jump year for lineman. Carey will be year two back on the right side. We have a new line coach. Ricky will still be a force.

Barring injuries to him, or any big component of the unit, things everyone needs to accomplish personal best ever, I predict he will. His best season so far is coming up and once again, we will be glad we have him.

"padre31 wrote:

I think it is pertinent to point out that P Cobbs, Greg C, DMart, Tony Fasano, all set career highs, as did Ted Ginn, and Ronnie Brown made his first pro bowl with Pennington as the Qb.

The only starter who did not set a career high was Ricky Williams and he was a part time starter and had a 1,800 yd season on his resume.

That would seem to undecut the argument that Pennington is some sort of limited roadblock for our offense, if anything he was a catalyst for across the board improvements.

I think a bit of perspective is in order.

The players that you mention as having career years.....were never really that good to begin with, statistically speaking.

Cobbs
Last year: 88 yards rushing, 19 catches 275 yards
Previous high: 47 yards rushing, 2 catches for 20 yards

Cammy
Last Year: 55 catches for 613 yards
Previous high: 8 catches for 160 yards

Fasano
Last year: 34 catches for 454 yards
Previous High: 14 catches for 143 yards

Martin
Last year: 31 catches for 450 yards
Previous high: 34 catches for 303 yards

I'm all for people using stats to back up their argument, but when stats (or the argument itself) is misleading, it doesn't do anything to help the discussion.

The career year argument is misleading because none of those players ever really accomplished anything do to the roles that they played. Most, if not all of them, were backups who found themselves either in a starting role for the first time in their careers or they had an increased role. The way your argument comes across makes it seem as though they had a productive past in which to best, and that just isn't the case. :wink2:

"like2god wrote:

I think a bit of perspective is in order.

The players that you mention as having career years.....were never really that good to begin with, statistically speaking.

Cobbs
Last year: 88 yards rushing, 19 catches 275 yards
Previous high: 47 yards rushing, 2 catches for 20 yards

Cammy
Last Year: 55 catches for 613 yards
Previous high: 8 catches for 160 yards

Fasano
Last year: 34 catches for 454 yards
Previous High: 14 catches for 143 yards

Martin
Last year: 31 catches for 450 yards
Previous high: 34 catches for 303 yards

I'm all for people using stats to back up their argument, but when stats (or the argument itself) is misleading, it doesn't do anything to help the discussion.

The career year argument is misleading because none of those players ever really accomplished anything do to the roles that they played. Most, if not all of them, were backups who found themselves either in a starting role for the first time in their careers or they had an increased role. The way your argument comes across makes it seem as though they had a productive past in which to best, and that just isn't the case. :wink2:

Or Pennington made mediocre or unknown players better then they had been.

Perspective doesn't only inlcude one's beliefs L2G..:wink2:

How else would you explain not only unknowns playing that well, but the team going 11-5? Our Defense was mediocre, yet we won the AFC East..thanks to Chad Pennington who took UDFA's, a Rb who hadn't played a full season in 4 years and a Ronnie B who was coming off a ACL injury.

"Xeticus wrote:

I'd rather have Pennington with his limited arm than some rocket armed noodle brain who can throw it all the way downfield only to have it intercepted or doesn't have the sense to avoid a sack.

That's a rather extreme example to use in order to prove your side of the debate. It's either Pennington or some mindless dolt who can't get out of his own way, but who also hasppens to have a rocket arm. Not a very fair or honest example IMO.

EVERY PLAYER HAS STRENGTHS AND LIMITATIONS. Pennington has limited arm strength. And he's still good enough to be a franchise caliber QB. Good coaches get the most out of their player's strengths. And with our strong RB's, our young and talented OL Pennington is the perfect guy to command our offense.

Now next year after our new WR's have gotten some experience we might be ready for a more wide open passing game. We're not there yet. So Pennington is exactly what we need now.

Noone is saying that Pennington is trash, but again I have to disagree with the bold text.

Experience of the WR's has nothing to do with whether we open up the passing game or not. Infact it might benefit a young WR (who doesn't have every NFL route down to a science) to be able to just run a go route, which is the easiest route to run in the whole playbook. There is no benchmark in experience that needs to be met before a team can let their WR's catch a deep pass. That argument simply doesn't fly, the reason we don't pass down the field or run the type of plays that require zip on a pass (Redzone, the Henne video) is because our QB simply can't make those passes.

"padre31 wrote:

Or Pennington made mediocre or unknown players better then they had been.

If they had larger roles on their respective teams in previous years, then I would agree. But when you have backups moving to starting spots, it doesn't matter who you have at QB, they are most than likely going to have increased production. And keep in mind that none of them had the stats of the top players at their respective positions, they just did better than they had previously.

Perspective doesn't only inlcude one's beliefs L2G..:wink2:

It also doesn't include homer glasses. :tongue2:

How else would you explain not only unknowns playing that well, but the team going 11-5? Our Defense was mediocre, yet we won the AFC East..thanks to Chad Pennington who took UDFA's, a Rb who hadn't played a full season in 4 years and a Ronnie B who was coming off a ACL injury.

Our defense wasn't mediocre, we were ranked 9th in points allowed per game, that's pretty well above average or mediocre. I already explained the backups and UDFA's above, and Ronnie Brown was highly successful before last year. Infact most of his best moments on the field last year came when Pennington was lined up at WR, or have we forgotten about the wildcat? :up:

I don't really understand this. For people who are arguing that Pennington doesn't have limitations that affect what our offense can do, let me ask you this: if you were to define the ideal QB, would it be Pennington? Or, would be it be a QB who plays smart, but can make ALL THE THROWS. Pennington is only half of that. Is he great? If we define great by making the Hall of Fame, I doubt it. Is he great for the Dolphins? Yes. Can we have better QB than Pennington? Yes we can. If Henne can play as smart as Pennington, but also be able to rocket the balls downfield to Ginn, then our offense will be on a level that Pennington can't touch.

"resnor wrote:

I don't really understand this. For people who are arguing that Pennington doesn't have limitations that affect what our offense can do, let me ask you this: if you were to define the ideal QB, would it be Pennington? Or, would be it be a QB who plays smart, but can make ALL THE THROWS. Pennington is only half of that. Is he great? If we define great by making the Hall of Fame, I doubt it. Is he great for the Dolphins? Yes. Can we have better QB than Pennington? Yes we can. If Henne can play as smart as Pennington, but also be able to rocket the balls downfield to Ginn, then our offense will be on a level that Pennington can't touch.

And as of yet...I havent seen any indications that show me Henne cannot play with the same amount of smarts Pennington has. But, let me also add to this...having an arm allows you to take a bit more risks. Chadd Pennington is going to check down more often than not, because he knows he cant make the throw. Chad Henne will probably take those risks...knowing that in alot of those cases, he can connect.

I also offer this:

Chad Pennington has given glowing reviews of Chad Henne. We all know Chad Pennington will be a hell of a coach some day....probably a great offensive co ordinator. Dont you think Chad himself would want to see what Henne can do to open up the play book?

I just dont get why people are so spooked by the idea of Henne possibly being an upgrade...and the fear of finding out if he is.