Brent Grimes looking to stand tall with Dolphins

This is what I like to read.

Were gonna be sick on defense this year.

 

Great signing by Ireland.

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Not really, history shows that signings like this often fail.

 

Yeah, he's just a CB. Definitely doesn't wear enough hats to make a real impact

 

Both are true.

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speaking of signing, its 5 days till camp, has Jeff showed up from his vacation yet, would be nice because our 3rd overall pick still hasn't signed his freaking contract, dito vonta leach...

 

brent ****ing grimes. best cb in the division!

 

anything is better than stanford and wilson having to cover starters. I don't want to hate too much on those guys but last season Stanford would end up covering guys like randy Moss against the niners and I almost threw up thinking "this is seriously how depleted we are at CB that RJ stanford is covering RANDY MOSS. ****."

Now i know moss was nothing last year but...wtf...Im glad we drafted and made a big FA move. I think we improve so much on defense this year not just cause our #1 cb got upgraded, but the whole unit entirely got a huge upgrade.

 

I agree, now tell that to Stringer. He's worried that there's too much roster turnover heading into the season. I think we were just getting rid of older/sub-par players and bringing in younger/better ones.

 

Don't forget Brice McCann.


























No, wait. Please do forget Brice McCann b/c he will never suit up for us again.

 

I promise, the dude is not going full speed in OTA's, only true competition will bring out top speed.

 

He never did. Bryan McCann did I channeled my MrClean on that.

 

says a lot about our previous CBs

 

I'm excited about Grimes. CB is no longer a high impact position, but there are always guys at any position who can make so many plays that they make a greater impact than their position generally contributes. I think Grimes can potentially do that for us. If we get good to great production from our pass rushers, our secondary should have multiple opportunities to cash in with TOs. Jones and Grimes are two guys with have shown a knack for taking advantage of those opportunities. I'm thinking of the great year that the New Orleans secondary had in their SB year. They made play after play and had such a huge positive TO differential. Now history also shows that CBs don't tend to stay at the top for more than two or three years (Sanders and Revis have been some of the few exceptions) so that will be an interesting negotiation after the season if Grimes has as good of a season as I hope.

 

Not worried at all. Its a reality of the sport. I just simply accept it.

 

That doesn't seem true. Most of the great CBs were great for a very long time.

Darrell Green played until he was 42 and had a span of 13 years between his first and his last Pro Bowl.
Deion Sanders played until he was 38 and has a 9 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Rod Woodson played until he was 38 and had a 13 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Charles Woodson has played to age 36 and has had 1 13 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Champ Bailey has played for 14 seasons and has a 12 year span between his first and most recent Pro Bowl (and maybe still going).
Mike Haynes played till he was 36 and had a 10 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Mel Blount played to 35 and had a 6 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Eric Allen played to age 36 and had a 6 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Aeneas Williams played to age 36 and had a 9 year span between his first and last Pro Bowls.
Ty Law played to 35 and had a 7 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.
Troy Vincent played to age 35 and although he got his first Pro Bowl pretty late (and later then he should have) his last one was at age 32.
Ronde Barber has played to age 38 and had a 7 year span between his first and last Pro Bowl.

That's a pretty impressive record of longevity and sustained high-level play for CBs. Whether Grimes' injury last year ultimately affects his longevity remains to be seen, but I don't think there is any reason to waver on offering him a multi-year contract at age 29 if he shows he is fully recovered and has a great season.

 

I disagree with your assessment of "great for a long time". Bailey is a classic example of a guy who cashed in on the big contract and was not nearly the same a couple of years later. He may have made pro bowls on name recognition, but anybody who watched Denver games saw him burnt regularly. He went from "shut down CB" to just another CB and his stats reflected that. Basically, probowls is a really poor measure of good play since fans can't generally see them during most plays so they mostly go by name recognition. Also if you look at the impact those players had on their teams pass D ratings you basically see no impact. In fact, those teams usually had worse pass D ratings after signing the big name CB. I don't know why that is. It's certainly counter-intuitive, but it is a fact. Also some of the guys on your list switched to S. Ss seem to have a longer shelf life than CBs especially if they're ball-hawk types. They don't demand the high CB salaries though, so paying a CB big money and then having switch to S is a bad deal for the team. From your list I would only count Green Sanders, Blount and maybe Allen as guys who played CB (not switched to S) at the top level for more than a three year span. After those three years or so at the top their salaries far outweighed their impact.

 

I think that is a little ridiculous. Bailey has been one of PFF's top rated CBs for the last 4 years. Unless it is your view that he did not get good until he hit age 30, and after having developed enough of a reputation to have gone to 8 Pro Bowls, that opinion seems pretty weak.

Of the guys on my list, they all played CB well into their 30s. Rod Woodson made the switch at age 33. Charles Woodson made the switch at age 35. Barber at age 37. Deion at age 37. And to say that RWoodson, CWoodson, Bailey, Haynes and AWilliams didn't play CB at a high lever for more than a 3 year span is one of the more absurd things I have ever read on this board.

I do agree that premuim CBs often don't have nearly the impact on the team's pass D as one would expect, but that really can't be said about most of the guys on my list because there is no real point of comparison of those pass defenses with and without that guy. Most of them played for so long and mostly on the same team that one can't really draw that conclusion. And maybe it is coincidence, but there are an awful lot of Super Bowl rings and appearances among the guys on that list:

Darrell Green (3 SB appearances, 2 wins)
Deion Sanders (2 SB wins)
Rod Woodson played (3 SB appearances, 1 win)
Charles Woodson (2 SB, 1 win)
Champ Bailey
Mike Haynes (1 SB win)
Mel Blount (4 SB wins)
Eric Allen
Aeneas Williams (1 SB appearance)
Ty Law (4 SB appearances, 3 wins)
Troy Vincent
Ronde Barber (1 SB win)

 

IMO PFFs subjective ratings are useless so that part of your argument is meaningless to me. And the SB appearances aren't a factor in this discussion. I'm not saying they were never good players. I'm saying they were high impact players for a time period who then became lower impact players despite still having high salaries.

The easiest way to see their impact is to look at the guys who switched teams and the impact they had on their new team's pass D numbers. With few exceptions like Sanders, the impact these CBs had was generally zero to negative. Their new team's generally had worse pass D efficiency despite paying big money to the top CB on the market. These CBs were considered shut down CBs yet if you actually watch their games they weren't anymore despite probowl appearances and an inordinately high percentage of their team's salary cap. CBs used to be high impact positions, but look at the last 10 years or so. Look at the top CB on the FA market for any given year in the last ten. Check the new team's pass D ranking before and after adding the top CB on the market and most of the time their ranking is lower. They just don't have the impact you'd expect if they remained shut down CBs. And if you watch the games what you see is completions to their man. The vast majority simply don't shut down one side of the field anymore. I'm not sure why that is. My guess is that the rules have just neutered the position so you get a few years where fewer penalties get called on you b/c of the rep but then things even out. Whatever the reason, it's rare for a shut down CB to remain for more than a few years. Many analysts now claim that there is no such thing as a shut down CB anymore.

 

Again, I agree that CBs generally don't have the impact people think. But I don't think it is because guys who people thought were shutdown corners really weren't, I think that even the very best CBs have a very limited impact on pass defense unless they are getting a bunch of interceptions. An 8-10 INT guy can have a huge impact, but those are pretty rare. Having one great CB may just cause the opposing QB to generally avoid that CB. All you need is for one guy on each play to get open and to be able to find that guy. And that guy need not be a boundary CB, it can be a slot guy, a TE or a RB. So I don't disagree that the fins should not give a mega-contract to a CB, I just disagree that it is rare for a CB to play at a top level for more than a 3 year period or that a guy like Grimes, at age 29, is at the end of his career as a quality CB.

 

Here's a few:

2012 Finnegan - Rams went from 7th ranked pass D to 15th.

2011 Asomugha - Philly went from 15 to 10 (but their YPA went up).

2009 Asante Samuel - Philly went from 3 to 17.

2008 Clements - SF went from 22 to 20.

2007 Ty Law - KC went from 5 to 28.

2006 Ty Law -Jets went from 14 to 9 (they also added Revis that year).

2005 Rolle - Ravens went from 10 - 8.


These were the guys I found who were the top rated CBs and switched teams. I couldnt find FA lists/rankings for before 2004. I don't see big impact there. The only team that had substantial jump (w/o the addition of Revis) was Philly in 2011, but I think that was largely fictional since their YPA attempt was worse. IMO you don't get shut down CB impact when you spend big money on FA CBs (sometimes 15% of your cap!). These guys usually have a couple of seasons where they are shutdown guys and then that impact goes away. The new teams pay shut down CB money, but get good but not great CB play.

 

I guess I would say our difference of opinion lies between the characterization of a quality CB and a shut down CB. I fully hope that Grimes is a shut down guy for us this year. I hope for 8 - 10 picks and for opposing QBs to fear him. But even if we get that I think it would be unreasonable to think he'll provide that for more than three years. If we paid him expecting him to replicate that production, I think we'll be disappointed. He might be a quality CB, but his level will most likely drop.

 

I agree that it would be unreasonable to expect him to continue to get 8-10 INTs even if he gets that this year because he has never had more than 6 in a season (which si still damn good). But if he gets 4-6 again this year I think one can expect him to continue to be in that general range for several more seasons. I wouldn't give him a mega-deal, but a deal that puts him in the top 10 or so among CBs would not be unreasonable.