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Brandon Marshall, or why Greg Camarillo could be in trouble.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast


    The punchline:

    Dolfans think Marshall is "the Beast" when really he is more akin to Michael Irvin a great wr within 20 yds of the LoS, DBess is the Slot, Hartline has the track speed and YPC avg to show he is a budding deep threat (a healthy Anthony Gonzalez maybe?) that leaves Greg C as the #4 Wr.

    The Dolphins rarely run 4 Wr sets.

    Basically Greg Camarillo does what Brandon Marshall does, but without the athleticism, so unless Greg C can beat out Hartline for the #2 Wr, his only other real avenue for seeing snaps is carving them away from Devone Bess.

    If a burner emerges in Traning Camp and during preseason games, Sept cutdown day could get very interesting as someone has to force the defense to defend more than those 20yds around the LoS.

    And let me add, this would be a perfect offense for Chad Pennington, a high percentage passer who rarely makes mistakes, for Chad Henne..not as much.
     
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  2. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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  3. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Marshall/Hartline
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    My bet for the Starting wr duo.

    Bess in the slot.

    1 Wr/Kr...:shifty:
     
  5. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    which imo is why i wanted to actually keep ginn. he woulda had no pressure, and could just fly with no safety shadowing him...but oh well.
     
  6. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    ..and he still probably wouldve dropped it.
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    BMarsh mentioned that he had wanted to line up with Ginn and just show him the ropes, and mentor him, but that is water under the bridge.

    If we all step back and look, Sparano and Crew must really like Hartline's game as there will be a ton of expectations on him this yr, as the #2 Wr and as potentially a kick returner.

    As important as BMarsh is, Hartline is being counted on heavily as well.
     
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  8. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've been saying Marshall is not a deep threat but nobody wants to listen.
     
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  9. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is the complaint here? The only WR in the NFL who really makes a living more than 20 yards out is DeSean Jackson. In today's NFL, a 20 yard throw is a deep pass, so what's the problem?

    This sounds like ignorance of statistics combined with a desire to make Brandon Marshall seem like less than what he really is. If there's reason to doubt Marshall, it's that his yards per catch has declined each season. 15.5 his rookie year, 13.0 his second year, 12.2 his third season, and 11.1 last year. THAT is worrisome, not the amount of his catches that went past 20 yards.
     
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  10. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    because we already knew that........
     
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  11. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Seems like a good problem to have...
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The problem is not the number of Marshall's catches that went for 20 yds or more, or even his declining YPC avg, it is Greg C's numbers are even lower and not likely to turn around anytime soon.

    As was pointed out in the TO thread, even 35yr old TO Averaged almost 5 yds per touch over Greg C, that is just for reference.

    Consider this, "if" Greg C starts, the collective avg ypc for the starting Wr would be around 11 yds, or right about where the 09 Dolphins Wr corps finished.

    Which imho means BMarsh is an upgrade, but over Greg Camarillo in terms of playmaking, that leaves Hartline as the only Wr who could manage to threaten that 20 yd area consistently which would moot Greg C.

    And maybe give some of the longshots more of a shot than what we could know in mid June.
     
  13. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Marshall being an upgrade over Camarillo is a Captain Obvious moment. Camarillo as the odd man out in the receiving corps is also a Captain Obvious moment.

    If Patrick Turner had shown anything last season, we'd be talking about how we traded Ted Ginn and Greg Camarillo to San Francisco for a 3rd round pick.
     
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  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Then why didn't you start a thread sharing your clearly superior inductive reasoning Des?


    No real room for him in SF.
     
  15. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    "Brandon Marshall's arrival means less attention for Greg Camarillo" is not the sort of revelation that new threads are made of. One wouldn't start a thread saying that Chad Pennington's injury meant more playing time for Chad Henne, because it's pretty obvious.

    Isaac Bruce is gone. There's absolutely room for him on their roster as the last-ditch option behind Crabtree and Davis.
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I usually said it in response to posts that proclaim we have our deep threat ... :yes:
     
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  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    On the surface that is true, however I went a step further, as in Greg Camarillo could be beaten out for a roster spot let alone for a starting job.

    With Theodore discovering the sidelines in SF, our KR job is wide open, a longshot who dominates in the return game could move him out of Miami.

    Basically, in any scenario but Camarillo winning the Starters job, he is vulnerable.



    They like Josh Morgan and Crabtree in normal sets, Theodore is their #3 and the 4th Wr is Vernon Davis at need.
     
  18. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    But how many passes of 20 yrds or more are actually caught past 20 yrds to begin with? My guess is not nearly as many as we might think.

    Marshall is a threat to go deep, or past 20 yrds every single time he touches the ball. His YAC should tell us that....
     
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  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Camarillo wasn't a starter in 2009. Hartline already took his job. Ginn and Hartline were our starters with Bess in the slot. Camarillo was the 3rd down sub.

    Vernon Davis is their real #1 receiver right now, especially with Captain Checkdown at QB over there.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You have to keep reminding them..:D

    We could really use a Te to emerge, or Hartline to improve even further, or some Wr to come out of nowhere because by the numbers, this is pretty much the 09 Wr corps except for Marshall's RAC yardage potential.

    More speed means larger windows for Henne to throw into.
     
  21. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    A deep threat could be on the other side now because we have a THREAT finally.... lol
     
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  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Hartline took Ginn's snaps.

    Which would mean Greg C would fillin for Ginn as BMarsh's YPC number is similar to Greg C, and Hartline didn't start until later in the year..did he?

    I believe that is a bit off base Des:

    Harltine:

    http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Hartline&playerid=5031

    Did not play over 40 offensive plays until week #12 he wound up with 493 snaps.

    Greg C:

    http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Camarillo&playerid=2523

    Played 693 snaps on offense, no Wr played more than he did in 2009 by over 100 plays, DBess was #2 with 583 and he never started.


    Doesn't matter, either way.
     
  23. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They aren't going to get rid of Camarillo because a couple of guys on ThePhins.com general forum are bored in the middle of the off season.

    Greg Camarillo goes out and gets the job done, and barring someone offering a pick greater than his worth, he's not going anywhere. He's not ever going to be a star receiver, but he consistently catches 70%+, runs good routes, blocks, and can play all the WR positions.

    The Dolphins don't run 4-WR sets, but that's irrelevant considering they've rotated their receivers the last two years. The receiver with the highest snap count the last two years got under 65% of the total snaps. (Coincidentally this was Camarillo last year).
     
  24. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    [​IMG]
     
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  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    :no:. Almost anyone is a deep threat when you have a dominant run game. Play action, throw a 10 yard curl to Marshall, and there will be two guys, maybe three, who can stop him from scoring. All of them DBs. Thats a deep threat.

    [​IMG]
     
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  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  27. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The fact that we might cut Greg Camarillo has been a cute little theory and thought on this board for years now. After 2007, after 2008, and still now in 2009. And all he does is keep having consistent, solid, clutch play filled season after clutch play filled season.

    You just don't cut players with Camarillo's ability, work ethic, and reliability. Worst case scenario, he is kept for depth.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Padre, the statistic's you show are not an inditement on the talent of one Brandon Marshall, moreso on the system he came from..A receiver catching a hundred football's is just not gonna have that outrageous YPA.

    The question is, in terms of impact, those 11 plays that were over 20 yards that he did have, were how outrageous.?

    Greg C played 6 months removed from a torn ACL. give em a break.

    Also, I really think that chad Henne's short passing game is on point, he sets up quickly and fires, getting the ball to the receiver as fast as possible, which imo is an advantage for receivers with great hands..
     
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  29. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    He also provides some of the better quality depth at the Wr position in the league if they do sit him more than the rest. My guess is they find a way to get him plenty of snaps though. He can be just as good as, if not better than Bess, in the slot....
     
  30. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Actually, Camarillo was a 16 game starter last year.
    http://www.nfl.com/players/gregcamarillo/profile?id=CAM014486
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And those three years the Dolphins passing game ranked were? Expecting different results from the same players is also a theory...
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Do you see Henne being a high accuracy/touch/timing passer Deej?
     
  33. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I expect that the Dolphins will want to use Marshall in all three WR slots to make it difficult for the defenses to key on him. That means that they're going to want the WR or WRs on the field with him to be versatile enough to play multiple slots as well. One thing Cam has, along with Bess and Hartline is versatility. I expect we'll see all three of the other WRs getting time on the field with Marshall. While the optimum alignment would be Marshall with Hartline at the #2 and Bess in the slot, Cam isn't such a significant downgrade that he'll get significantly fewer reps.
     
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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When I study his mechanics, I see more potential for accuracy on timing and short to intermediate routes, then I do on long attempts, once his body and footwork catches up to his arm, I do see a 60 percent passer... Now His trajectory is so filthy, its not really condusive to long distance accuracy..However, when you can truly threat all 4 quarters of the field, your still accomplishing a lot.
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Wow, talk about insulting.

    Yet Camarillo was targeted about the same as Ginn and less than Bess.
     
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  36. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    By starter, I don't mean "was on the field for the first play of the game," but rather "atop the depth chart at his position." It was pretty obvious from watching the games that Camarillo was not a priority target in the passing game.
     
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  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Therein is the problem, even if Marshall is moved around the formation, the #2 option (Hartline) can then maybe take advantage of the mismatch as well, with Bess and Greg C, 10 ypc or so is about all that can be expected and not really exploiting the match up.

    If the goal is chunk yardage, don't you need players who can generate..chunk yardage? It could be said they move the chains, which is good, however that limits the field to 10 yd/first down pieces.
     
  38. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Who needs different results? I'd be happy to see Camarillo do exactly what he did last year. Catch every ball thrown his way, including some clutch 3rd and 4th down grabs.
     
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  39. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Two words. Kyle. Orton.
     
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  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Dolphins want more chunk yardage, and where are they going to get it? Brandon Marshall will help, however he really isn't a chunk yardage type of a guy.

    If Camarillo is gone, the hole left could be filled with Bess, Hartline and Marshall.

    If Camarillo can be replaced by someone who can get chunk yardage, I think it is worth it. Hartline, Bess and Marshall can make the clutch 3rd and 4th down grabs.

    This is the NFL, you make tough choices. Do I think it is a slam dunk that Camarillo is gone? No of course not. However I do not think it is a coincidence that every undrafted free agent and young receiver is a speedy guy.
     
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