Bill Polian weighing in on our Dolphins, Ireland, Philbin, Hartline, Long

Right, you have no idea who is responsible for what, so just blame everyone.

 

Its ridiculous to say the method with which was used to evaluate players is pointless to the discussion. Especially if the person using that method had no choice but to use it.

 

I would have to the regional scouts funneled it first, then Ireland would pass it on, but the first and likely most complete analysis of players came from the regional scouts first then to their boss, and then to Ireland. Scouts - Director of Scouting (or whatever title) - Ireland. Ireland can't watch every single guy the same way a scout from each region can. If that were the case the regional scouts would by and large be redundant and rather useless, given that one man could do it.

Like any organization there are many more layers than we are really looking at here. Ireland took his cues in FA from Brian Gaine, not solely himself. He took his subordinates ideas and either agreed or refuted them, but it based largely on the work of others.

You think a CFO knows every single accounts status at any given time? More than likely he's going off of the income statement or the statement of financial position as opposed to looking it up himself. Otherwise why would he employ these other people?

 

Thats really just the tip of the iceberg. In administrative settings, you're going to be plagued with subordinates that place their personal advancement over doing a good job.

There isn't very much attention paid to this, but how scouts relate to their superiors is very important. If Bill Parcells says he wants a big WR thats a redzone target, do his scouts embellish the ability of someone just to make Parcells happy? If a scout this year believes Stedman Bailey is the best WR in the class, does he actually tell that to his GM, or does he just regurgitate the consensus for fear of reprisal? The dynamics here are so complex, that it really is foolish to try and parse through everything.

 

Pffftt.

I'm going out on a limb by saying the GM and the shot caller are responsible for the drafts they conducted? I have NO idea? Really? You're really trying to take that position.

 

Yes, none of us have any idea what the responsibilities of those with the organization entail. What is Brian Gaine doing right now? Dawn Aponte? Jeff Ireland?

General Manager is inherently an extremely vague and ambiguous title. Nobody outside of the organization has nearly enough information to decipher whats actually going on within the organization.

 

The person in charge, isn't held responsible, because we can't figure out where exactly the failure happened. That's ridiculous. The failure was caused by the bad scouting, all the way up to the top. Each person in that chain failed.

The common denominator is the GM, and the shot caller.

By your logic, nobody should have called for Parcells or Irelands head all these years, because we really don't know their exact responsibilities.

 

Held responsible? Do we hold people responsible? This is certainly news to me. I wasn't aware that we were making the decisions here.

It really isn't a novel concept. We are clueless. We don't make decisions. There are people who know exactly what happens. They are the ones that make decisions. They are the ones that hold people responsible.

People are certainly free to whine and call for people's heads. That doesn't make their opinions informed or accurate however. Thankfully in this case ill-informed opinions aren't really that detrimental.

 

The new GM of the Jets would be one.

 

No one forced him to come to Miami and take the GM job in the first place. If he didn't like the situation he was walking into, he didn't have to take the job. He has been here as the teams GM for the past five years. The team has had a losing record for each of the past four years. I feel he is just as much to blame for these losing seasons as Parcells and Sparano were.

Parcells hired him because Ireland was suppose to be an excellent judge of talent. Based on the talent the Dolphins have acquired during his five years with the organization, it appears that Parcells erred in his hiring of Ireland, if he was hired mainly because of his talent judgement.

 

Actually the reports were that Ross spoke to a ton of people inside the organization in order to determine who made what decisions, who was in charge and who pushed for different decisions that were ultimately made. So he did figure out what happened and determined who was responsible.

 

You can't make that determination b/c you don't know which players he pushed for. Ross did speak with the scouts and others in the FO and used that information to decide that Ireland was not a terrible judge of talent.

As for taking the job, of course he would take it. Who would turn down a substantial raise and more control over some areas (part of the draft and UDFAs) just b/c some idiots on the net who have no idea what's going on might think he did a bad job? All he had to do was make sure his personal opinions on decisions were known within the organization (not outside) and then once Parcells left (which was inevitable), he would be judged by those opinions regardless of what decision Parcells made.

 

I don't think you can say everyone in the link failed. If the scout banged the table for someone but was over ruled, how did he fail? What was his error, not fighting to the point of being relieved of his duty? I just don't think you can blame every link in the chain when possibly only one failed. The saying "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link'' doesn't apply to every link, it can't. Now every link could be weak - thats certainly possible, but then it would be impossible to discern what was the weak link as they were all weak. And the opposite is also a possibility, it has to be, but again its also unlikely.

But as for a common denominator, its not just the GM, there are scouts on the job who have been here since the Shula. How do they get a pass, when the reality is, we were even more futile at drafting quality players before Ireland arrived? They would be more of a common denominator over Ireland no? They have been here longer, through the years that we were a punchline around this time of year. Ireland has in fact elevated our ability to draft. We have been more successful in the first round than we ever were before Ireland's tenure - at least for the 5-7 years or so before IMHO. That period before Ireland was downright nauseating.

 

Wrong. We know Parcells hired certain failed personnel, unless you think guys like Sparano & Henning (whom Ireland & his staff brought in players specifically for) were non issues.

 

Agree about Sirius NFL radio. Best show to listen to, IMHO is moving the chains with Tim Ryan and Pat Kirwan from 3-7 weekdays. 2 of the most objective, level headed and knowledgable (specifically Pat Kirwan) guys covering the sport today. Gil Brandt is great on there too. He seems to be on sporadically but love hearing him whenever he's on.

 

The whole basis of the Jeff Ireland conversation is off. If you're working from the assumption the overall quality of what was done in terms of personnel was bad or below average, you're wrong. Regardless of how you slice it, be it when Parcells was here, after, or all together.

Also it's hard to understate how terrible Bill Polian is.

 

When are we allowed to criticize Jeff Ireland? Serious question. It seems that anytime anyone says anything negative about him we had the usual suspects running to his defense.

I we go 6-10/7-9 AGAIN, can we say anything or will we still be wrong, off base, not knowledgeable of the situation or "hating"?

 

If he screws up this offseason, even his most ardent fans won't have a leg to stand on defending him.

 

They will find a way. Someone will point to the successes, giving him full credit. Meanwhile, the when failures are pointed at they will say "no one knows who is responsible for that". It's the same tune we have heard for 2 years.

I have zero confidence Ireland will hit the needed home run. I REALLY hope he does so we don't continue to be an irrelevant franchise. I am tired of losing.

 

Yeah, just look at those Buffalo teams he built. Or what he did in Carolina. And god, those Colts were so terrible for so long.

 

That's nonsense.

Most who've defended him have simply defended him from people blaming him for stuff no one is sure was is fault. Most of those have said this is the year where we know for sure.

There are very few people here who believe Ireland is awesome. Most of us hover around neutral.

 

We're a long, long ****ing way off of being unable to criticize Ireland. That's not the problem. It's the massive hyperbole fueled by those with no inclination to test their ideas with any sort of rigor that is the problem.

While we're at it we can ask our grandparents about polio and the Great War.

 

It's not a "when" issue. I criticize his decisions all the time. But I find it ridiculous when people criticize him for things he may not have even done.

 

I just want to know when common sense became a position bordering on the extreme. Especially when no one here has anything to do with any of these decisions. To take ownership of another's ideas or belief structure as if we in fact are the holders of the one and only altruism is simply ridiculous.

I am not naming anyone outside of myself as being guilty of it, and I'll leave it by saying this:

"Walk a mile in another man's shoes"........

 

Blame whoever you want but this team has been mediocre for a long time and right now he is the guy in charge. Catching heat deservedly or not is inevitable when your fielding bad football teams.

 

So he held on to Ireland who apparently had the power of a Sheriff with a water pistol because apparently none of the bad decisions were made by him.

Keep in mind, that when Ross went around the organization, only one of the two guys were still there.

I don't assign anything Ross does as being right, or indicative of anything.

I'm saying, when mistakes are made, the guys at the top are responsible. Period. In this case you have the GM, and you have Parcells the President. Let's not pretend it was one or the other. The two guys shared the same philosophy.

Case in point. When it was time to pick a QB. Did Parcells fly around the country? No. Ireland, Sparano and Henning did. And they came back and reported to Parcells. They said Henne was just as good as the other two. Who failed here. Ireland in his scouting, or Parcells for listening to Ireland Sparano and Henning?

Does anyone here seriously believe any scouting report would bypass Ireland and go straight to Parcells?

He is in charge of personnel. And we're saying he's not to blame for the personnel decisions made?

I blame Ireland for being the top information gatherer. Parcells was not gathering information. He was essentially the CEO. He assessed the information people gave him and made a decision. If anyone thinks Parcells was burning the midnight oil crunching numbers on free agents and college players, well we can end this right here.

You guys might have an argument if all of a sudden we started kicking arse after Parcells left. We get Patrick Turner part deux ... Clyde Gates.

 

We're assuming Parcells presented 3 choices A, B, and C and Parcells took Z. That's just ridiculous considering the level of work Parcells was doing after the first year.

That's also assuming further Ireland was an emasculated GM for 3 years.

Keeping in mind further, Parcells was an absentee official while Ireland was around every day. Who do you think the staff is going to back? Ireland is gassing everyone up while Parcells is on the golf course.

You know what owners have said about their GM? The Ford family thought as late as 2006 that Matt Millen was the best GM the Lions ever had.

Ever had.

Now, Ireland is 100x the GM that Millen was. But my point is to show, what Ross decided has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on who is responsible for personnel choices since 2008.

 

Brandt said that Parcells had a few project players every year. These were guys he actually watched film on and sometimes went to see. You say it's ridiculous while Brandt was saying that's exactly what Parcells was doing. These were picks that Parcells made himself. Ireland also admitted that Parcells took people off his board. These are not assumptions. The people who just want to blame everyone are the ones making assumptions.

 

And does Brandt point to any actual draft choices that were Parcells projects that didn't appear on Ireland's draft board? Is there any evidence of this?

Name the players Miami drafted that was a Parcells project, that Ireland and co were not on board with.

We're talking about the possibility of a GM working all year to create a draft board and Parcells coming in the 9th inning and completely bypassing it. And Ireland not even quietly sitting in the corner sulking about it.

Is that what we're assuming here?

 

The only one he ever mentioned that I heard was Pat White.

As for the rest, it's not an assumption that Parcells had his own players and took players off of Ireland's board. As to whether Ireland complained or not, I can't say. My guess is that he waited out Parcells since everybody knew he was leaving. And that people in the organization knew exactly what was happening so that when Ross investigated it, he decided to keep Ireland it was b/c he felt that many of the mistakes that people wanted to put on Ireland were actually on Parcells.

 

1. That's much too simple.
2. Where do you come up with this "shared philosophy" stuff when what we're seeing now under Ireland is entirely different than Parcells?

Wrong. Parcells sent Ireland, Sparano, and Henning to check out Henne.

Do you seriously believe the failed offensive system (Henning's) and failed HC (Sparano) had no influence on the types of players scouted and blueprint followed?... and how convenient you forget those failed coaches whose philosophies & schemes we followed were Parcells' hirings.

LOL if you think Parcells wasn't gathering information when he gathered tons of information and was huge in the draft process. It's a fact Parcells burnt the midnight oil crunching take on college prospects.

... and just how long do you think it takes to turn a team around after spending a year under a lame duck head coach and subsequently changing schemes (which obviously require some change in personnel)?

 

Parcells was Ireland's boss.

Are suggesting that if Ireland fought hard enough Parcells would just capitulate?

The insanity in this discussion is epic.

 

They worked together for what, a decade? Yeah, completely opposite philosophies here.

Huh????

Henning's system worked pretty well in 2008, no? Why did it fail in 2009? Oh that QB Ireland went to scout, and told Parcells was every bit as good as Flacco and Matt Ryan.

What can Trent Green do that Jay Fiedler can't?

And how did Daboll work out in 2011? I haven't checked. Did Parcells hire Daboll? Maybe he sent Ireland an email overriding him.

So we kept a GM that was a figurehead and didn't do anything. Awesome.

According to a statistic I just read, before this season, in the last 12 years, more teams that finish 6-10 one year, make the playoffs than have a losing record the next year. 12 teams made the playoffs. 10 teams had a losing record. We went 6-10 and then 7-9.

It is what it is. In before someone says looking at records is too simplistic.

 

times ten for Ross.

 

Is there any evidence opposing it?

No, you name the players you know for a fact Ireland WAS on board with. Considering Ireland still has a job and is backed by Ross, the burden of proof is on your shoulders. We don't have to name anything b/c Ireland still has his job after being fully vetted by Ross. You make it seem like you care more about our GM's performance and know more about our GM than the guy who spent a billion dollars to buy the team.

That's quite a big assumption of you to presume to know who it was who worked all year to create the draft board. It was Parcells' team. If there were guys he had his mind set on taking, which was the case, that was his prerogative since he's the boss and all.

 

Hey, I'm the one taking facts at face value. As General Manager in charge of personnel, I assume he was ... in charge of personnel. If we are to believe that he was completely bypassed with Parcells adding in players Ireland was 100% against, I'd like to see some evidence.

Matt Millen.

I'm assuming the GM was responsible for personnel. Nothing more.

 

I don't agree. The most ardent Ireland fans are in the "Wait and see." There are just too many people who go off the handle if a poster says something other than, "Ireland murders babies in his sleep." Which just causes them to dig in more and defend harder than they want to because being reasonable is a waste of time.

With this much cap space, 5 draft picks in 3 rounds, which could increase to 7 draft picks in 4 rounds if Miami gets compensation pick for losing Langford last season, Miami better be better off next season than last season.

 

what does that have to do with anything? Ireland is NOT a Parcellian disciple. That's a stated fact.

yes, it was Parcells who sent the trio to confirm Henne, another stated fact.

yeah, that's why it failed. It had nothing to do with the fact we played THE EASIEST defensive schedule the NFL has ever seen in 2008.... but couldn't do ANYTHING against a good defense. Apparently Henning has been fired 6 or 7 times b/c of Ireland. I can't believe you're stooping to the level of absolving Henning in order to throw it all on Ireland. If that's the kind of agenda you're on we're done here.

 

The evidence is he still has his job unlike the other f*** ups who are no longer with the organization.

 

jdang, you are klillin it bro, you are on a roll. Keep it up!