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Best Linebacking corps in the AFC East

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Jul 1, 2009.

Best Linebacking Corps in AFC East

Poll closed Jul 7, 2009.
  1. Patriots, A Thomas, J Mayo, T Bruschi, S Crable

    11 vote(s)
    18.0%
  2. Jets, C Pace, B Scott, D Harris, B Thomas

    14 vote(s)
    23.0%
  3. Bills K Ellison, P Poszluzney, K Mitchell

    2 vote(s)
    3.3%
  4. Phins, M Roth, C Crowder, A Ayodele, J Porter

    34 vote(s)
    55.7%
  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    That Channing wouldn't start on the Pats?

    Who does he replace? Bruschi who has been a probowl player or Mayo who shows much more potential the Crowder ever has? Sorry padre, but once the season was over Miami fans were being realistic and objective in their views on Crowder and pointing out valid concerns in his game, now that he resigned and we're heading into the season the evaluations are tinged with Aqua and Orange. :wink2:

    Come on padre, Scott has been a much more consistent contributor in his career than Ayodele. I don't think it's really even an issue, does anyone here think that Ayodele would command the type of interest (or contract) that Scott did this offseason? There is a reason for it, simple stat comparisons don't tell the whole story of the players and their game.

    Thomas hasn't lived up to his contract in NE, but he's better than Roth. Matt is the better run stopper, but Thomas is better at getting to the Qb and in pass D IMO. He missed 7 games and still had as many sacks as Roth, hurries aren't an official NFL stat, but I would bet that he leads that category as well.

    As far as our LB's, keep in mind that Porter had a career year and his numbers skew the total a bit, I don't expect him to come close to last years numbers. Going into this offseason we were all complaining that we needed some big upgrades at LB because we couldn't generate any passrush and most wanted Crowder gone. Now that we resigned Channing and passed over some very good LB prospects in the draft in order to select a part time specialist, it seems as if people have just forgotten our troubles. I understand optimism at this time of year, but I don't understand wiping the slate clean and ignoring our concerns from the prior year when they haven't been adequately addressed.
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Crowder could replace Bruschi, easily, and don't forget they wanted JT badly as well.

    As for Akin A, look at the stats, compare the number of pro bowls both players have been to, Scott v Akin A, you'll be surprised (possibly).

    Statiscally speaking, Dolphins Lb's finished either #1 or #2 v other Lb's in the division, no other team had a unit as good across the board.

    Sacks #1, Tackles #3 (by 4 tackles) Int's and Fumbles, the Dolphins Lb's had a much better year then those Lb's who have larger reputations but not stats.

    And we added JT and Wake.
     
  3. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    The poll doesn't take JT and Wake into account, so I had to vote NY. But put in JT and Cam Wake, and I vote Phins. Aside from which I believe Gholston will be a bust and Scott won't play nearly as well without Ray Lewis by his side.
     
  4. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I say Boston College..........that guy Herzlich rocks. :wink2:
     
  5. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Live from the Internet.
    On paper, jets.
    Overall...us :D
     
  6. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    In your opinion

    Perhaps to be the situational passrusher that we signed him to be? He would have been a spare part, not a starter, so their pursuit of him means little IMO.

    The Pats also kicked the tires on Culpepper after we dumped him, does that mean he is a good player?

    Nice dodge of my question :wink2:

    Do you think that Ayodele would receive the type of interest or contract that Scott received this offseason? If yes, why?

    Stats don't necessarily tell the whole story, it's the type of plays being made that matter. I feel like I walked into a Pennington thread. :pointlol:

    As Joe pointed out, Channing could have more tackles than someone like Scott, but do those tackles really count as "making a play" if they are 10 yards down the field? Crowder lets plays come to him, he was the main ILB on the team last year, where Scott was 2nd fiddle to Lewis, but he commanded more interest this offseason than Channing. Now ask, "why"?

    Simple answer, he's the better player. :wink2:

    And again, Porter's numbers inflated what was a very poor LB crew. Do we not remember our complaints from last season? Roth is a liability against the pass and can't generate pressure? Crowder hasn't made a play since he's been in Miami? Ayodele is a solid player, but not a starter? Anyone?

    JT is a situational player at this point and Wake has to prove that he can play in the NFL, his numbers in the CFL are meaningless. He may end up being as worthless as Eddie Moore for all we know.
     
  7. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    mike i dont get how the main diss on crowder is his "stats" are misleading and he makes tackles down the field....and lets plays come to him.......so what does it make bruschi if he isnt even doing THAT much?!

    atleast crowder is around the ball....92 solo tackles is awesome.....regardless of where it is....believe me, i played the position
     
  8. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Because he is more athletic and was routinely asked to drop into coverage in Baltimore. In fact he was their best coverage linebacker, and does not appear lost when asked to do so. Scott is a 3 down player, Crowder is not.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Jr Seau started for them last season, Crowder isn't Offerdahl Jr. however he's not a 40 yr old twice retired Lb either..

    Compared to Bunta Cain and Brian Crable? Seriously?


    Which has what to do with JT? The pats made an offer for JT, they clearly wanted him in NE, in MI he won't even be a starter barring injuries.



    Which has no bearing on Akin A v B Scott and the best Lb Corp in the AFC East, a large contract merely means the Jets paid him what they thought he was worth, that does not mean he will play up to the level of that contract.

    Lies, damn lies, then statistics?

    How do you weight those stats for a player who had a top notch supporting cast surrounding him? Unless it is some form of compelling argument it's tough to see 4 tackles more being worth millions more on the field...


    Sure, that was the same rap on Zach Thomas, and either way, 84 tackles is not exactly Jesse Tuggle like, as for commanding more interest, so what?

    FA busts are a dime a dozen, the league often gets it wrong L2G.

    Nope, could be he was worth that much to the Jets simply because he understood Rex Ryan's defense and they needed someone to help the other players learn the "D" playbook.

    Certainly, however this is a phins board, we pick apart our players even when they have career highs in sacks or are coming off of their first season at OLB, that is what fans do, however the fact of the matter is we have the best AFC East Lb crew heading into the season.

    One seems to be confusing armchair Gming (of which I'm one) vs actual production out on the field, opinion v facts as it were.

    The Jets have Gholston, the Bills drafted Maybin, however neither is as good as JT was last season, Gholston had 2 tackles, Maybin was in College, JT had three sacks in an injury plagued season, and he still was more productive then either Maybin or Gholston, so other then projection, what do you base JT's worth on?

    Add in Wake, and we not only have the best Lb corps in the AFC East, we also have the best depth.
     
  10. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Channing Crowder may not be a super star but he's a solid starter with decent numbers and he's relatively young. When free agency was about to get started I was talking to some chiefs fans on another forum and they were DROOLING at the prospect of getting him. Going into free agency he was the top free agent LB available many people thought. Is he as good as Bruschi? No but he's a hell of a lot younger, a solid starter for us and we got him at a decent price.

    I am personally happy with our LB corps. We've got solid starters and great depth. If I could improve anywhere I'd love for a monster ILB to replace Ayodele. The FO seems to like him but I can't ever remember the guy making a big play. Roth, Crowder and Porter all have their upsides. But to me Ayodele is a cipher. Other than him though I'm fine.
     
  11. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    For example, if Bruschi is making 75 tackles within 3-5 yards off the LOS and Crowder is making 113 of them 5-8 yards from the LOS, who is more effective? Bruschi is a leader, he is experienced, he can read offenses very well, when has any of that been said about Crowder? :confused2:
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Crowder is not the player Scott compares to though, it's Akin A, and their stats were very very similar.


    Akin A

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=3617

    B Scott:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4256
     
  13. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Seau was starting in place of an injured Thomas, he wasn't even with the Pats until then. You make it sound as if he was a major part of their plan last year, in reality he was an emergency signing and they went with him because of his leadership.

    Are you going to play someone fulltime if you don't believe that they are a fulltime starter? The Pats were more than likely going to use a rotation, Crable has alot of potential and the Pats are known for getting the most out of their players. Woods and Crable are going to be fighting for the starting spot this year, so yeah, Taylor would have been part of a rotation just like he is here. :up:

    You were using the Pats interest to make a point and so did I in my rebuttle. :wink2:

    The simple fact that the Pats were interested in a player doesn't make him good.

    And Miami was interested in him, but the Jets were the ones who won the race. Miami wouldn't have gone after him and potentially paid him a large sum if they felt that Crowder and Ayodele were better players, would they?

    See my reply to Chris

    And you bring up Seau to knock the Pats LB's and then say that Bruschi had a top notch supporting cast? Then you say that Miami had the better LB's, but now it isn't as good as NE's (Top notch)? Which one is it? I'm confused.

    Commanding more interest speaks volumes about a player and his abilities out on the field. Logic says that the better player will command more interest admake more money, no?

    And again, please keep in mind that Miami had interest in Scott. Why would they be interested if we already had better players? :wink2:

    Miami was interested...

    In your opinion

    padre, the criticism of Crowder isn't new, you know that. You also know that at this time of year folks are hyped up on....well....hype and optimism. Very real and very valid criticisms of Crowder's game are being tossed to the side and all of a sudden some now feel that he's worthy of starting on the Jets or Patriots....what happened to the legitimate concerns? ck (well, it was one of the gurus) posted some very damning stats on Crowder a few months back, I'll take a look tomorrow to see if I can find them.

    Gholston was also purposely kept out of the lineup by Mangini, he didn't let the kid learn on the job like most teams do with their players. As much as I like to bust the nuts of the Jets fans on Gholston being a flop, that was a major issue with the Jets, Mangini and Gholston last year and can't be overlooked. So while he hasn't made a huge impact on the stat sheet, one has to look to the "why" of the issue. :wink2:

    I base JT's worth on his role with the team, he's going to be a situational player, yet some folks around here are talking as if he's going to regain his old form.

    :pointlol:

    Brother, Wake is a total unknown and his addition means nothing to this conversation until he actually does something in this league. Again, people are making wild projections about how effective he will be and that's all they are, projections. What he did in the CFL is about as meaningful as what Gholston did in college, in other words, not very.

    I'm out for the night, peace. :knucks:
     
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  14. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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  15. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I don't think some of you are giving Roth enough credit. The last half of the season teams ran his way like 5-6 times overr the last 8 games! Thats taking half -1/3 of the field away from 1/2 of the offense. May not show in his tackle or sack numbers but Roth had a great year.
    Roths biggest weakness is the passing game, although I saw improvement there last yr also, so in comes JT on pass downs, the dolphins team leader in int from the LB spot and 6th? on the all time sack list. #1 among active players.
    Put that combo against anyone in the NFL I would.
     
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  16. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Seriously, who is Bunta Cain and Brian Crable?

    The Pats do have players named Tully Banta-Cain and Shawn Crable however.
    If you want to sound like you really know much of anything about the Pats lb situation, for goodness sake, at least get the names right.
     
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    IF that were actually the case, then Bruschi would be of course, but unless you can present more than anecdotal evidence that this was the case, your premise that Bruschi is more effective than Crowder holds no water.
     
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  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    If Rex Ryan doesn't know who Channing Crowder is, then getting Shawn confused with Brian, and "Bunta" instead of Banta is small potatoes Mr. C.
     
  19. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    not going to vote one this proposition:
    I don't think our 3-4 is set in stone &
    w/ the abundance of talent we carry@ the position
    fully expect variations, nuances & actual changes in our set line up
    also think we could carry more LB's this year on the regular roster
    would not surprise me to see OLB's, playing ILB, Roaming the Middle or lining up as DE's during cetain plays
    they have tremendous potential as play-making unit. I'm sure the coach will creatively utilize them.
    therefore comparing 3 or 4 LB's makes no sense to me @ this time
    I will say that Miami has hands down the greatest upside & potential of the group
     
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Crowder is very underrated. I think that was very apparent after the KC game. Sure, a lot of people wanted him replaced during the offseason, but that is because the grass is always greener.

    I also do slightly recall CK posting some numbers regarding Crowder making plays at the LOS, which were very impressive.

    Making plays is not necessarily the biggest thing you look for in an ILB, sometimes you just hope they don't make a mistake.
     
  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, time to throw Calvin Pace's 4 game suspension for substance violations into the mix, 4 games, and Vern Gholston is the backup.

    I wouldn't gloat though, Gholston could surprise everyone, sometimes a player just needs the opportunity to play.
     
  22. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    The Dolphins have the two best Lb's on their roster in Porter and JT. I think by game one we'll be seeing a lot more of JT than we think. Their inside guys are solid and Roth made some really good strides last year.

    The Jets have Harris who is by far the best inside Lb'er period. He is a playmaker near the LOS and a tackling machine. Now that Pace is gone for a bit, I'll put them at 2/3 with NE. I'm not so impressed with Bartman. but the Jets do have a solid core and if the Ghost can actually become an NFL player they'd be a solid 2 right behind Miami.

    Brewski was showing lots of signs that he was aging last year so we'll have to see if that was a fluke but Mayo is very good.

    Billy has the Pulz and if he further improves he COULD be another excellent Lb'er in the AFC East
     
  23. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I wouldn't go that far. I'm not going to say Crowder is a very good inside linebacker when he's not but I think he's quality and I think he's a big part of this team due to the lack of depth at the position. As noted earlier, that game against Kansas City showed how important Crowder is to this football team. Color me crazy but I think if Gary Guyton was given sixteen games last year, he could have put up equal numbers to Tedy Bruschi. Further, I think if we're having this discussion roughly two years ago, I would probably agree with you due to the fact that Bruschi was a better player and younger. However, he is 36 now and I think he's slipping a bit.
     
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  24. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    Or as I'm hoping he's about as effective as trying to patch a dam with a banana.
     
  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Do you really believe Ryan never heard of Crowder? No way. Ryan was just taking the piss out of him, as my Aussie friends would say, but inferring he is such an obscure player that Rex never heard of him.
     
  26. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    New England also had a nose tackle that had triple the tackles as our nose tackle which could be a huge variable to the solo tackles mentioned above...If and when Wilfork becomes a free agent I would pull the trigger in a new york second.66 tackles for a nose tackle is very impressive
     
  27. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Jets IMO.

    Arguably the best outside and in.
     
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  28. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    With Porter getting up there in age
    was great last season or till we had to put an APB the last3-4 games when Porter was lost.

    JT has had two bad seasons in a row and at 35 this is not a very good sign for the future

    Akin is marginal at best and should be upgraded

    Roth was impressive in his first year as an OLB

    OH Crowder...I dont see this team going far into the playoffs with such a marginal middle LB...People get excited over 100 tackles for Crowder but when Zach was here he had 150-160 like clock work, year in year out.

    I'm sure that the reason Bell had 120 tackles last season had something to do with Crowder. No safety would have 100+ tackles with a real middle linebacker.

    Lets hope Wake can become something special and Roth can continue to improve while Porter and JT (playing a new position)stay away from the "home for the elderly"
    LETS PRAY CROWDER CAN MAKE A PLAY OR TWO
    and lets hope we draft Linebackers galore in the next draft
     
  29. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    He was more skilled. No question. But he's 36 now and definitely is showing decline IMO.

    Crowder makes almost no 'extra' plays (sacks, INT's, fumbles). But the Miami run defense fell off significantly when he was out or played injured.

    Jerod Mayo is way more important to that defense. And Crowder definitely is more important to Miami's today.
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Set a career high in sacks.


    Not so, his 07 season was "okay" and JT fnished the season's last three games with three sacks and a forced fumble, he was finally healthy.


    He has the same numbers as Bart Scott did last season, about 80 tackles, to TO's created.

    that spells "upside".


    And the same criticisms of Zach are now being aimed at Crowder, few plays in the hole, tackles downfield etc etc.


    Not so, many teams play a good Safety in the ILB role on passing downs, and Y Bell beat Crowder in tackles only due to Crowder missing the Chiefs game.

    Recall the Patriot's OLB's ages when they were in the SB?


    The future is now.
     

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