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Beginning of the C Gates and Phillip Livas effects

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LikeUntoGod, Aug 20, 2011.

  1. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    The C Gates effect forces the defense to play a little back and to move back a little quicker. So far he has already shown he can get open long even if the passes are not hitting yet. This is already opening up things underneath for the other WRs/TEs.

    The P Livas effect forces the punter to either kick off out of bounds or kick short afraid of the chance that P Livas will run a punt back.
     
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  2. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Speed. Speed. And speed (Bush).
     
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  3. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Im ok with henne overthrowing gates this early. They've had gates working with the 1's and 2's at practices. You know what i'd like to see? Henne and gates staying on the field after practices with bush to work on timing and stuff like that. But who knows if thats possible (henne may have meetings, film study etc)
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Surprised me that we have not run a single end around as of yet, with Livas/Gates/Moore.
     
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  5. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    We ran one last night with Gates. Was like a 3-yard loss.

    Actually a good call and would have worked but the RE blew it up.
     
  6. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Henne was just trying to get Gates to run faster. :) Seriously, the entire O is still a work in progress with Daboll, and it is gonna take some time for everything to click. As Nat Moore said, when Gates is running by defenders, and we throw his way, he will pull defenders with him, even if the passes are incomplete. This opens things up for Marshall, Bess, and Bush.
     
  7. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    Yeah he did. I wonder how much of that was Murthra. He didn't really seem to step up and engage the RE...looked like he was in more of a pass protection mode.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That's right, I'd thought it was a shovel pass.
     
  9. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Yea, cant blame you for not recognizing what type of play that was, it looked dreadfull. Like where Dabolls head was though, just need to execute it better.
     
  10. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    It was actually Garner, and I initially thought the same thing. Almost like he was in pass pro.

    At the same time, it looked like the DE really got lucky. He just dashed upfield and got lucky the inside run was indeed a fake. Garner probably would have whiffed had he tried to engage.

    When I watched it again, it was really a great call by Daboll. Everybody else got sucked into the run and it was wide open for Gates.
     
  11. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Yea, cant blame you for not recognizing what type of play that was, it looked dreadfull. Like where Dabolls head was though, just need to execute it better.
     
  12. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Livas is having a real, quantifiable effect on Special Teams.

    Gates is having...let's call it "the Ted Ginn Effect," that of making people think he's actually doing something when in fact he's affecting little on the field until he really, actually DOES do something.

    I'm rooting for him to explode, but the fact is that whether on returns or in the O, he has played a lot slower than his 40 time. Henne is putting those passes where he should be for a guy with his speed, and he's just not getting there.

    He needs to find a way off jams and put his timed speed on the field as effective speed.
     
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  13. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    (I was trying not to mention Ted Ginn, lol)

    P Livas was also a RB and WR in college not just a return guy. He also ran the ball as well as caught passes. I think he can work into being the 6th WR. He gives us 6 WRs with R Wallace. And a 2nd speed WR with Gates.

    And let's not forget the C Gates effect. So far he has been getting open long and our QBs simply have not connected yet. When our QB hits him for a 63 yard TD pass the defense will drop back another couple of yards.

    We are now doing something that we have not did since Scott Linehan had Gus Frerotte throw long to Chris Chambers at least twice a game. Frerotte admitted after that season that Linehan would have him just throw long to Chambers just to stretch the field.

    The difference being that C Gates is much faster then Chris Chambers was. Chris Chambers was rarely open, C Gates is often getting wide open. The defense is opening up for underneath pass routes. Gates and Livas give us two very fast WRs plus both can do reverses etc. And from watching the film of P Livas in college, he will be better at running the ball then Gates will.

    This will open up more room for R Bush to get open and break plays.

    Speed kills, and we now have speed to kill with.
     
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  14. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Gates is definitely making those safeties take a step back. Griese even pointed it out on one of the Bess catches across the middle. The FS was not on the screen b/c he was making sure Gates didn't get behind him. That Ginn effect is real even if Gates doesn't produce himself and even if some fans refuse to acknowledge it.
     
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  15. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Speed is nice; it's exciting and it will make a good team better, more dangerous.

    I think speed wounds; execution kills.

    If you look closely at the top 10 WRs of all time, you won't see any real burners; you'll see guys who played effectively; they executed. They had functional speed, effective speed, but I don't see any 4.2-4.3 guys on that list; correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe Moss; I don't remember how he timed coming out.

    I'm happy to have weapons, and speed certainly is welcome, but it works best as an enhancement to effectiveness. Functional performance comes before it.
     
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  16. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Are you incapable of expressing your opinion without taking a shot at fellow fans?

    Isn't it enough to state your point and let it stand?

    This has been a good discussion until now, without bringing disdain into it.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Lofton and Tim Brown were pretty fast and they were really good receivers.

    I do agree though, execution beats speed every day of the week.
     
  18. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Execution does beat speed but a fair comparison would be a lineup of basketball players that needs a shooter to spread the floor. That guy might not be a better player but he fits that group's skill-set better than say Brian Hartline.
     
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  19. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    That speed and eventual completions really will allow Marshall , Bush and Bess to flourish in this offense . I WISH we had a TE that would match what those players bring.

    Henne has been put in a vastly superior situation this year , so far he has shown he is moving ahead here.
     
  20. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    We do have a guy that could be that last threat on the field in Clay. He'll play in the slot or come out of the backfield but he can turn it up the field and teams likely won't cover him with a LB (he'll be able to run block against a smaller guy).
     
  21. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    I'm with you; but, staying with the basketball analogy: The Heat last season brought in a bunch of guys to complement the big three, and some of those were supposed to be shooters. Well, come crunch time while Nowitzki was shooting 100% free throws and making crazy shots from the field, Miami's shooters largely failed.

    The difference, again, is execution. Nowitzki and, say, Miller were both supposed to shoot well and step up in the clutch, but only one of them did.

    By the same token, it's not enough to be fast; you have to translate your speed to performance—real performance. Livas is doing that in the return game; Gates has looked sluggish and hesitant on returns, and has failed to capitalize on his speed in the Offense by getting under those long passes.

    Maybe he'll put it all together yet; he is a rookie, after all. But the cold fact is that NFL history is littered with failed speedsters at WR, and another fact is that the top 10 in history weren't speedsters—they were good Receivers.

    I hope he does put it together; think of what Devin Hester brings to the Bears and double it if both Gates and Livas pan out. But also note that Hester has not ensured success for the Bears by himself.
     
  22. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    He isn't lining up at TE to do that though .

    Clay has some versatility no doubt and hopefully we see some production from him , but I would really like a TE that would take the majority of the snaps and have the ability to make plays , and to then make them .
     
  23. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Livas sure does make a difference and its exciting, the best since the Ginn days. However something has me worried a tad. On the radio today they were saying that Livas needs to be used more in our offense because so far all he has done is play offensive ST's and that he needs to show them he can do more to stick on the final roster. Any truth to what they were saying ?
     
  24. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    He did make a nice play on his TD and on a play that isn't his forte. He has shown he can and does get behind defenders , the nuances should come if he wants it and I know of no reason he doesn't .

    Connecting on one with Henne would be a huge bullet for this offence .
     
  25. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Are there any TEs likely to shake free perhaps out of GB or something?
     
  26. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The disdain began with this post where you claimed that people only "think" he's doing something. I merely pointed out that the effect is real despite the fact that some can't acknowledge it.
     
  27. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member




    They drafted DJ Williams and a late round TE , Quarless is joined by Finley returning so they have talent and bodies . No idea though who they like at the moment or how that position is unfolding in camp for them . Finley is playing for a contract and they may be open to move Quarless .
     
  28. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Yeah, you always have a "reason." But the fact is you're just contributing to the baiting and demonetization of some of the site's best posters.

    Enjoy your agenda. Never mind that you're helping **** the community over, but hey, as long as you "win."
     
  29. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I endeavor to always use reason. If you had done so in response to my post you would have either explained why Griese was wrong or acknowledged that your statement was wrong. Failing to do either of those is what diminishes this board.
     

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