Beck Struggles

The real questiion about the kid is is he a rubberman? Does he bounce back from all of the bad stuff like a pro or does it drag him down. Last season wasn't enough to go off of, but I think we'll know what he's capable of by midseason.

Quite frankly, I'd have been surprised if Beck didn't have a couple of godawful days in the early stages of training camp. The guy's a 2nd year player who copes with a new staff, new receivers, new linemen, a new offense and a tweaked delivery. Plus, he's under tremendous pressure because he knows quite well that if he doesn't win the starting job this offseason, it might well have been his last chance with the Fins.

I think we need to take these early camp reports with a grain of salt. First, it is quite normal that QBs (especially young ones) look awful in the first couple of practices. Defenses are always ahead of offenses at this point and that usually shows in the QB performance. Second, this is the point where - as a coaching staff - you want your QBs to make mistakes because you have ample time to work on that. After all of Cam's "falling forward" talk, this might not be the most popular concept round here, but in truth, it's what every coach employs in one way or the other. Make it hard on the guy, force a mistake, work on that.

That's not to say that Beck's going to be 'da guy' or the second coming of Marino - but these early struggles tell you next to nothing.

"Vendigo wrote:

Quite frankly, I'd have been surprised if Beck didn't have a couple of godawful days in the early stages of training camp. The guy's a 2nd year player who copes with a new staff, new receivers, new linemen, a new offense and a tweaked delivery. Plus, he's under tremendous pressure because he knows quite well that if he doesn't win the starting job this offseason, it might well have been his last chance with the Fins.

I think we need to take these early camp reports with a grain of salt. First, it is quite normal that QBs (especially young ones) look awful in the first couple of practices. Defenses are always ahead of offenses at this point and that usually shows in the QB performance. Second, this is the point where - as a coaching staff - you want your QBs to make mistakes because you have ample time to work on that. After all of Cam's "falling forward" talk, this might not be the most popular concept round here, but in truth, it's what every coach employs in one way or the other. Make it hard on the guy, force a mistake, work on that.

That's not to say that Beck's going to be 'da guy' or the second coming of Marino - but these early struggles tell you next to nothing.

i think it is important to know how a QB fares in the beginning. otherwise you have nothing to compare to. i will not take this with a grain of salt. Beck has always said the right things, and thats all fine and dandy; but knowing what to say, and knowing what to do are two completely different things. To me, it's inevitable that Henne wins the starting role long term here. Chad doesn't come off as someone who is trying to say the right things, or project the right attitude. He's a guy that knows what he can do, and he does it. I think thats the bottom line when it comes to QB success. I would absolutely be thrilled if Beck proved people wrong. But at the end of the day, you're really only kidding yourself if you think a 'nice guy' like Beck can overcome his physical shortcomings by having the right attitude.

So, long story short. When I hear bad things about Beck from camp, it's kinda confirming what I already believe he is going to be.

what physical shortcomings gish? What shortcomings are exclusive to him.. he already has the best release, best velocity, same height and stature as the others.. just where are these shortcomings?

gish wrote:

But at the end of the day, you're really only kidding yourself if you think a 'nice guy' like Beck can overcome his physical shortcomings by having the right attitude.

"gi§h® wrote:

So, long story short. When I hear bad things about Beck from camp, it's kinda confirming what I already believe he is going to be.

That belief strikes me as kind of arbitrary though. You believe Beck won't be a good QB because he says the right things? You believe Henne will be a good QB because he "just does it" - without having him seen taking a single NFL snap? No offense, but that seems odd. And it constitutes, in my humble opinion, exactly the kind of "reading stuff into an early camp performance" that one shouldn't do yet. It's way too early and there are way too many factors yet in play.

As an aside, I find it a bit puzzling that you bring the whole "says the right things" thing into the debate as I haven't said a single word about that. Yet you've put me into the "likes Beck because he says the right things" category. Strikes me as an instance of "what Jack says about Paul says a lot more about Jack than about Paul" ;)

"cnc66 wrote:

what physical shortcomings gish? What shortcomings are exclusive to him.. he already has the best release, best velocity, same height and stature as the others.. just where are these shortcomings?

Beck is 6'2" 217
Henne is 6'3" 230
McCown is 6'4" 215

Beck is the shortest of the bunch, and is 13 pounds lighter than Henne. Henne's extra weight increases his pass range. Plus Henne has a stronger arm.

On a non-physical note, Henne holds a huge advantage coming from a program like Michigan, as opposed to Utah. The learning curve is sloped in Henne's favor. And we know the MO of a Parcells operated team. Henne was drafted by the new regime. To me, the writing has been on the wall. But the new staff would be fools to tell Beck walk without giving him a fair shot at winning the job.

"gi§h® wrote:

Beck is 6'2" 217

Drew Brees is 6'0 and 209. Tony Romo is 6'2.

To me, the writing has been on the wall

It seems to me that you're hearing zebras, not horses :wink2:

"Vendigo wrote:

That belief strikes me as kind of arbitrary though. You believe Beck won't be a good QB because he says the right things? You believe Henne will be a good QB because he "just does it" - without having him seen taking a single NFL snap? No offense, but that seems odd. And it constitutes, in my humble opinion, exactly the kind of "reading stuff into an early camp performance" that one shouldn't do yet. It's way too early and there are way too many factors yet in play.

As an aside, I find it a bit puzzling that you bring the whole "says the right things" thing into the debate as I haven't said a single word about that. Yet you've put me into the "likes Beck because he says the right things" category. Strikes me as an instance of "what Jack says about Paul says a lot more about Jack than about Paul" ;)

sorry, didnt mean to lump you into any groups. i was just taking what you said and continuing the conversation from there.

About the Henne not taking a single snap comment. What I meant by 'he just does it', is that rather than going out of his way to make sure he says the right things. He's the kind of guy that lets his play do the talking. Neither of them have any playing time in the NFL that can represent what they bring to the table. i just think it's worth noting the approach these guys are taking. I admire Beck for wanting to be the guy. And he does say all the right things. But that only gets you liked. It's what you do on the field that gets you respected. I think Henne understands that a little more than Beck.

"gi§h® wrote:

About the Henne not taking a single snap comment. What I meant by 'he just does it', is that rather than going out of his way to make sure he says the right things. He's the kind of guy that lets his play do the talking

How do you come to the conclusion that Beck goes out of his way to make sure he says the right things? Maybe that just happens to be, well, him? It seems to me that you've already put a label on both guys solely based on what you think of them on a personal level instead of hard evidence. What's Beck supposed to say when they ask him? The wrong things?

I think Henne understands that a little more than Beck.

Not to discredit your impression but it's just that - an impression. It doesn't really stand up to any objective argument, does it? Maybe you're right ... personally, I just like to evaluate their play before drawing any conclusions about their character. Don't know either of them.

"Vendigo wrote:

Drew Brees is 6'0 and 209. Tony Romo is 6'2.

It seems to me that you're hearing zebras, not horses :wink2:

Brees is also a more gifted passer than Beck. He broke the record for yardage in the NCAA. Even still, Brees was god awful for his first 3 years. But Brees is a great example of the type of player that can overcome his disadvantages. I would be overjoyed if Beck became what Brees is. But do you really think that our regime will sit back for 3 years and watch Beck go through the same growing pains that Brees did. Henne will be on the field within 5 games if Beck gets his shot and blows it.

"gi§h® wrote:

But do you really think that our regime will sit back for 3 years and watch Beck go through the same growing pains that Brees did

Well, if Beck was to put up the numbers Brees put up in his 2nd year - yes, I fully expect them to sit back. I'm not saying that he will - I just find your reasoning for thinking that he won't (or won't get the time) strange. You seem to suppose that the regime isn't high on Beck. While that may very well be the case, I don't see any real evidence supporting that at the moment.

"Vendigo wrote:

How do you come to the conclusion that Beck goes out of his way to make sure he says the right things? Maybe that just happens to be, well, him? It seems to me that you've already put a label on both guys solely based on what you think of them on a personal level instead of hard evidence. What's Beck supposed to say when they ask him? The wrong things?

I'm not saying that Beck is being fake, or untrue to himself. I'm just saying that I think his approach is slightly flawed.

"Vendigo wrote:

Not to discredit your impression but it's just that - an impression. It doesn't really stand up to any objective argument, does it? Maybe you're right ... personally, I just like to evaluate their play before drawing any conclusions about their character. Don't know either of them.

You're right. It's just an impression. I've learned to pay attention to first impressions. Not necessarily write them in stone, but keep note of what your instincts are telling you. After a while patterns form, and it's a little easier to catch things you may have missed before. I'm sure a lot of GMs and coaches end up making quite a few decisions based on those gut feelings. Sometimes they are forced to choose between two players, having to cut only one, and they are absolutely torn as to who to choose. Being well in tune with your instincts can be quite beneficial.

Gish, you're on record as not being a Beck guy, and that's fine but you still can't draw conclusions on one practice where Beck had a poor day...in fact, in all of the reports I read it was mentioned by various reporters (both media and fan reports) that none of the QBs were spectacular. McCown had a worse day than Beck the first day...does that automatically put him out of the race, as you are saying that Beck is now out ?? What if Henne has the same type of day as Beck did today...would that put him out too ??

One practice...now that is really drawing conclusions...Under this scenario, Porter will be cut because he hasn't practiced at all ??

"njfinfan wrote:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2008/07/27/0727fins.html

Dolphins quarterback John Beck already was having a bad day.

As Sunday's practice neared a close, he'd clearly taken a step back in the team's heated quarterback competition.

From what I read from camp reports, none of the QB's looked good. So why did Beck take a step back and on McCown or Henne?

"Vendigo wrote:

Well, if Beck was to put up the numbers Brees put up in his 2nd year - yes, I fully expect them to sit back. I'm not saying that he will - I just find your reasoning for thinking that he won't (or won't get the time) strange. You seem to suppose that the regime isn't high on Beck. While that may very well be the case, I don't see any real evidence supporting that at the moment.

You're right. They are giving him an equal opportunity. I'm gonna be paying attention to the camp reports pretty closely. If our assessments don't stack up with theirs, then obviously there is a curve ball somewhere in their rankings.

As of now, I see the score:

Henne -1 (for arriving late)
Beck -1 (bad showing on sunday)
McCown 0

Who knows if Sparano and company had everyone starting at 0? But we'll see where the chips fall.

"Larryfinfan wrote:

Gish, you're on record as not being a Beck guy, and that's fine but you still can't draw conclusions on one practice where Beck had a poor day...in fact, in all of the reports I read it was mentioned by various reporters (both media and fan reports) that none of the QBs were spectacular. McCown had a worse day than Beck the first day...does that automatically put him out of the race, as you are saying that Beck is now out ?? What if Henne has the same type of day as Beck did today...would that put him out too ??

One practice...now that is really drawing conclusions...Under this scenario, Porter will be cut because he hasn't practiced at all ??

No, no, no.... I'm not saying that Beck won't win the starters job. He very well may. I'm just saying that I don't think he stands much of a chance once Henne catches up in terms of adjusting to the NFL. Being from a pro style offense, I wouldn't expect it to take very long for Henne to be ready to go. Once that happens, Beck is gonna feel some REAL pressure. That will be his moment of truth.

I agree with Gish to a certain extent. Hearing about this type of practice from Beck just drives home the feeling I have that he will not be able to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. The mistakes he made last season, specifically the fumbles where he wasn't touched or pressured by the defense that went for 6 the other way, are still fresh on my mind. Beck didn't seem to have it last year, and didn't really show much in the way of potential either.

I would love for him to prove me wrong, but I'm awful glad we drafted Henne to wait in the wings if Beck can't make it happen.

I do take in early camp reports, but will wait until at least the first preseason game before I determine if the Beck of last year was an ill prepared rookie forced into an impossible situation (which I tend to think) or if what we saw is what we got. What we do know is he has put in alot of time trying to be coached up and prepare himself the best he can to compete for this job. The defenses are always ahead of the offense at this point and from all reports I have seen each QB had his good and bad spots during the practices this weekend. I took from the readings, since I live in TN and can't attend camps.

Saturday Beck +1 McCown 0 Henne 0 (won't give him a minus just for not being signed)
Sunday Beck -1, Henne 0 (neither impressive so no plus for either but Beck seems to have been very eratic (more bad then good throws).

I thank everyone for the time and efforts placed into the camp reports for us unfortunate and unable to attend.

Don't be too concerned. This is an offensive line whose linchpin is a rookie and with three new guys on it, all playing for a new coach in a new system. When they get it some semblance of together, the QBs will be able to start getting used to the receivers. Then we'll see whos's who.

This doesn't surprise me at all. I am hoping that he improves...and I am not basing it anything other than sheer emotion. I haven't seen anything from Beck, or even heard anything about Beck that would leave me to believe that hes going to turn it around.

To this point, it doesn't appear that he is going to be the leader we need. But the good news is that we have two other QBs and its early. Beck, concievably (even though a long shot) could turn it around. McCown and Henne might also step up.

Even though its only been a couple of days, I think this proves that the FO made the right strategic decision to select a QB early in the draft.

I know the QB's get the blame, but for all we know, it could have been the WRs who were not where they were supposed to be.

"cnc66 wrote:

what physical shortcomings gish? What shortcomings are exclusive to him.. he already has the best release, best velocity, same height and stature as the others.. just where are these shortcomings?

Wait I know a quarter back like that and he lives near me his name is KYLE BOLLER please tell me he is not going to become the next KYLE BOLLER noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

So is McCown the favorite right now to win the starting quarterback job?

"Straz wrote:

So is McCown the favorite right now to win the starting quarterback job?

They all suck right now. Its to be expected. I'm not saying they are singeling out John, but right now he's the worst of the three. That, however, is not saying much.