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Atogwe value compared to British Petroleum Stock

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by mommabilly, Jun 4, 2010.

  1. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Suitors are dropping fast in the Atogwe saga. Personally, let him remain a Ram. With him as a FS they have gone 6-42 in the last three years. I am expecting him and his agent to realize his real worth is going to be Zippo real soon. If the guy is smart he will take whatever the Rams are offering as it seems they are the only ones that really offered anything yet.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/04/vikings-formally-opt-out-of-atogwe-bidding/
     
  2. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I don't think the teams record is a reflection on a FS's play. I mean, there are 21 other starters, not including STs. A FS can't make a big enough impact to carry a team. They've been real bad. But your going to put that on him? And that's gunna be your main reason for not wanting him?
     
  3. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

    I love how this is his team photo...Kinda reminiscent of the Rams as a team during his era(what with the whole deer in the headlights look). It looks like this was the exact moment he found out he was drafted by the Rams.
     
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  4. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    It appears I am not the only one that is not interested in paying the Kings Ransom he and his agent are evidently looking for. Neighbor down the block is a HUGE Rams fan and in DVRd just about every game in the last three years. OJ does have take aways but since we were interested spent some time and a few six packs at his house and believe me, OJ also gets burnt pretty bad by better recievers.

    If you look at the yards thrown against the Rams and Touchdowns scored against the Rams in the last three years, with OJ, they are almost identical to what we did. Number of passes thrown against them are no different either, I thought that number would be far greater as the Rams have zero pass rush, they are almost identical as ours. Simply put, last year they had a new coach, he had no choice but to franchise tag this kid. Atogwe and his agent are on crack if he thinks that a 29 year old FS in the NFL coming off a team that has been a bottom feeder for the last three yeas and to boot, throw in MAJOR shoulder surgery, is going to get a mega payday. Crack or swamp spirits or really bad drugs, thats what both of them are on. Let the Rams keep him, no one will care and no one will notice if he is there or not there. They are just plain bad, with OJ or without OJ.
     
  5. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Great picture, that about sums up the St. louis Rams atmosphere.:up: I am not as smart as the team owners or I would be a billionaire but it seems the ones that are billionaires are a little hesitant to seperate with the coinage they are requestion. The Rams on the other hand ? Crap, they are not even sure who their owner is going to be from week to week.:lol:
     
  6. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    :pity:I've seen people say QB's lost games. I've never seen someone say a FS lost a game. This is the Rams we're talking about. He's been one of the lone bright spots along with SJAX.
     
  7. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Atogwe can't get 7 million. He can only get what the Rams, Phins, or Lions (I believe) dictate. That's around 5.5 to 6 million a year.
     
  8. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    That just looks like the frightfully bewildered face of a man who just woke up from what he believed to be a horrible nightmare where he played for the St. Louis Rams.

    Poor guy; somebody put him out of his misery.
     
  9. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    try telling that to some Dolphin fans who believe we lost 4 games alone last season because of gibril wilson. He was bad too but....come on.
    I'm sure there will be a fair share of those same fans that will be on a cliff because we decide to develop the talent we have and go with a guy already on the roster.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    To me, FS is the 'new' impact position FN, with the NFL moving to being a passing league, a FS has more impact than they did back in the day.

    7 millie worth of impact?

    :dunno:
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff A.S.E. Mastur

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    Im still pissed we couldnt sign Antrelle Rolle.
     
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  12. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Antrelle wanted historic money. We already had plans for Dansby and probably Marshall.
     
  13. Jeff

    Jeff A.S.E. Mastur

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    No salary cap this year. They could have made it happen.
     
  14. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    I know it has been said a bunch of times here, and in many conversations about this topic - but not having a cap doesn't mean go buy every player you want.

    This may be a sport, but it is still a business, and burning tons of cash isn't smart business. Well run businesses with smart owners/managers transcend to creating winning teams in the NFL.
     
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  15. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    if we are serious about contending this year they will pursue him w/serious deliberation
     
  16. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And when the cap comes back then what?
     
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  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    If it's structured intelligently, the cap impact in future years would be of minor concern. The bigger issue is the actual spending. I think that goes back to their internal cap. How much do they value the FS position? IMO, FS is one of the top 5 impact positions, with the other four being QB, LT, #1 WR and a pressure player. So I don't see a problem with spending the money at those positions if I think he's the right guy.
     
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  18. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    This whole Atogwe thing , IMO, hinges on OJ himself. The Rams probably made what would be considered a fair offer. Out of all the teams that know him the best, they do. I never said he was responsible for helping to lose games. If he was good as most are hyping him to be then whey are the teams in his own conference, Cardinals, and they lost Rolle, 49ers, he dates Singletarys daughter, and the Seahawks, not interested in retaining his services ?

    Who knows, none of us do. If he did not have recent shoulder surgery this probably would have changed the whole picture, but he did have surgery.

    I am starting to believe that the Rams did make him a decent offer, not mega, but one where he can live comfortable for a long time. I also believe from what I read, him and his coach, Steve Spanuolo, have a great relationship and basically Atogwe told him that he wanted to see if he could do better and if he couldn't, then he would be back to sit down and sign with the Rams again. This being a business, what else could Spagnuolo say but, hey, go ahead, I understand.

    Unless Atogwe really wants to get out of St. Louis bad, and seeing the fact no other teams are in a hurry to bid for his services. OJ Atogwe , considering the above, will be a Ram in 2010. It appears up to this point the Rams are the only ones that have offered him anything. His agent is handling this the same we any of us would do if we were selling a personal vehicle. Market it at one given price, all the while knowing the actual price you would accept for it. Its no different, all the NFL players have turned into nothing more then products these days. Whoever has the best salesman representing their product, gets the most in contract money.
     
  19. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can just structure it so that it all comes in this year. I think it is more likely than not that we have a cap again next year. And if the owners get their way, it will be a lower amount than it would have been if the last system had been extended. I don't see the player’s pool of the revenue not shrinking a little. I could be wrong. I think the internal cap is a reflection of what they believe the future cap will be. This is based on nothing but speculation on my part.
     
  20. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    This is comments from today up in St. Louis. As I thought, the kid is shopping and the Rams appear ready to match any decent offer given him but not go overboard. In the end I think the Rams are going to be his only choice. I have to think if he is as good as some think then the shoulder surgery is a big red flag for a team to sign him to a large contract. Or, as I think, he is no better or worse then what the supposed interested teams already have on their rosters. I still say if he was as much as an impact player as hawked, teams in his own division would be stepping over themselves for his services. You guys understand how I feel that way ?

    Quiet on the Atogwe front
    Saturday makes the fourth day that safety Oshiomogho Atogwe has been a free agent, and the only sound has been the door slamming shut by supposedly interested teams.

    Several teams had been rumored to be interested in pursuing Atogwe, but several including Dallas, San Francisco and Minnesota have claimed they won’t pursue him. Miami and Detroit have been other teams mentioned, and no one from either team has yet to comment on their alleged interest.

    Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said, “I’m ready to go into our season with the safeties we have.” Vikings coach Brad Childress said Friday the team “has “no interest.” A report out of Detroit said Atogwe’s asking price is “extremely high.”

    As for the notion that Atogwe is looking to leave the Rams because he was upset by the original low tender, general manager Billy Devaney said, “I don’t think that’s the case. He was probably disappointed, but he understood the business part of it.”

    Devaney acknowledged that if another team came forward with a huge offer, the Rams would likely be moving on without him, but so far, that hasn’t been the case.

    Concluded Devaney, “O.J. knows how we feel about him. We are a better team with him here. Our hope is that after he tests the market, he will come back to us. We’re trying to get to a happy medium.”
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    No, you couldn't structure it so it all comes out this year unless he just signed a 1 year deal hoping to land a future pay day like Pisa T. did last season. (This was mentioned as a possibility by NFP).

    But you could structure it so that his cap number going forward is substantially less $4 million or so I think is the most he may get. I think if you got his cap number going forward into the $2 mill - $2.5 mill range then that is very comfortable for the team for a near pro bowl player at a high impact position.

    And that's how I rate OJ. I see him as a borderline pro bowler. I think he could make a pro bowl if he has a high turnover season and Reed or Polamalu are injured. He is certainly capable of being a ball hawk. But I see him as a step below the top echelon. He's a smart player who rarely misses tackles. He has good ball skills and good anticipation. He also has nice range. He can be an intimidator against the WR going over the middle, but he's really just adequate against the run. He usually gets the guy down but isn't stuffing the bigger running backs. IMO if you have that kind of a player in a scheme that lets him stay back you will win a lot of games. And I disagree with the disparaging remarks in this thread. If we had that last year, I think there's no doubt we win another 3-4 games.

    Now looking at what we have, I see Culver as OJ without the range and the ball hawking skill, but he is smart and doesn't miss many tackles. I see Clemons as having the range and I expect he'll be a fairly consistent tackler. I don't think he'll ever be the natural play maker that OJ is or having the ball skills. We still have to wait and see if he'll be a smart player back there. How much do you value having the play maker at S? IMO that's difference between having OJ and sticking with what we have or may have.
     
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  22. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Then why in an uncapped year, in his own division, the NFC West which is admittedly most likely the weakest division in the NFL, doesn't their coaches and GMs and Owners jump on this potential " pro bowl " player ?

    Especially the Cardinals, they lost Rolle and do not want to replace him with Atogwe ? Does not make sense at all. Never said the kid was not a good player but a borderline pro bowl player ? If he was that close to borderline, 31 NFL teams would be lining up at his agents door way since 30 seconds after the bidding was permitted to commence. Would not mind him on the team at all but by no means is this guy worthy of a huge contract that apparently him and his agent are looking for. If he was worthy, he would have signed one by now. How long did Rolle last on the open market ? IMO, he is not as good as Rolle would have been in our D.
     
  23. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Several reasons, the economy, the looming lockout, the valuation of the S position, his injury history, the fact that he produced fewer TOs last year than in previous years, etc. And saying it doesn't make sense for a borderline pro bowl S is just ignoring the dynamics of the NFL. You have to look no further than our own Yeremiah Bell. He was also a borderline pro bowl S with an injury history. He had never made the pro bowl when he signed his deal. He did make it last year after Bethea dropped out with the new pro bowl/SB rule. He was a little older than OJ but otherwise very comparable. As an unrestricted FA he received little or no interest on the market mostly due to the injury history and the position (the fact is that S has one of the lowest franchise tag values, avg. of the top 5 at the position, ahead of only TE and P/K). He signed a 1 year deal with the Dolphins in 2008 and then was rewarded with a long tern, although modest deal that averaged $2.5 mill/per year in guaranteed money and only $3 mill/per year total (although incentives could get it up as high $5 mill/ per).

    It's very possible that OJ may follow the same route and hope to have a great 2010 (like Bell did in 2008) and then get the long term deal the following year.
     
  24. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Where he goes and what deal he signs all depends on what OJ is looking for. One year deal outside the Rams may just be what the Dr. ordered for him. If he is unsure of his shoulder and the Rams are offering what appears to be a decent deal over a period of years, then that is his best choice. I am still in the opinion that if he is as good as some hawk him to be, then any team in the NFL West would be glad to have his services which is plainly not the case here. I really think he wants to stay with the Rams. He just wanted to shop around and see if he could up there offer some. The statement I posted by their GM makes that somewhat clear. If he is offered something better then what the Rams offered they would look at it. If he is offered something out of the ballpark from what the Rams offered, they would move on.

    As of yet, he has not even gotten a base hit no less a home run offer. This tells me most teams simply do not want to take the chance on him. One year deal at a reasonable price ? sign him. His agent and him are looking for more then that though, have to be , if several teams have openly made it known " The asking price is too high "

    I do not know a lot in life but I do know, I am not a billionaire and if employees representing billionaires are saying his asking price is too high, I have to believe them.
     
  25. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Oh, a FS can cost a team a loss... especially when they just give up moster play after monster play like Wilson did.

    But in terms of carrying a team to wins... its pretty hard for a FS to do, unless they are HoF INT for TDs all over the place type... like Ed Reed in his prime...
     
  26. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Some team just sign him! I just want to know what we're going into the season with.
     
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  27. Jeff

    Jeff A.S.E. Mastur

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    Dont put words in my mouth. Where in my post did it say anything about buying every player? Stop assuming, and read what I actually said. I was talking about ONE player.
     
  28. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Whether the Rams are just as good of a team results wise with or without them, or whether they're pass defense is just as bad as ours with him, you're talking about team results. If the pass rush sucks, and the CBs suck... the pass defense is gunna suck regardless of the FS.

    Now, I haven't seen him play, so if you've watched lots of his games, you know more about his ability than I do. But you sound like you are describing a horrible player, and that goes against everything I've read about him. I think he could be a very good player yet not worth elite money. If he comes down from his asking price a bit, he could still be a great addition to our team, and a major upgrade from the garbage we have.
     
  29. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    No, I do not think in any way that Atogweis a horrible player at all. I just think he is not on the cusp of being a pro bowler. Until his shoulder injury from what I can tell, is he played every game. Have not watched a lot of games, just the ones my neighbor has on his DVR. He is a die hard fan and even thinks OJ is not worth the 7 mil a year they tagged him with last year. Apparently there was a coaching search and this guy Spanuolo did not get hired until late Jan, so he had no choice but to tag Atogwe or lose him.

    From what the neighbor tells me, the pass rush has sukked the last few years. Evidently they had several first round draft picks on Defense not work out at all. I know we need help at the S position but again, if Atogwe was as good as being hyped, why aren't the other teams in the NFL that need FS help even interested in him ? Thats my question. The only answer I can come up with, they are asking far too much money for his services. If he was as good as advertised, Danny Boy in Washington or Jerry Jones would have beat each other up already with the bidding.

    Rolle did not last too long did he ? Why is this guy still around, one has to ask himself.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    You keep acting like you've never watched an NFL free agency before. Just about every year there are players that get stuck until after the teams have spent their money, just like OJ did this year. It's even worse when those players are Ss, since it is one the lowest paid positions. Those players almost always have few suitors and end up taking small contracts.

    Look at Sharper, he's older but he had a pretty nice season last year and was inarguably a pro bowl S. He was just a little late to the party b/c of his surgery, not as late as OJ of course. He ended up signing a 1 year deal for just $1.575 mill. These same employees of billionaires didn't beat each other up with the bidding for him even though he was inarguably a pro bowl player. The reason is that there are many factors. And even if OJ is exactly as good as I and many others say, his position, injury history and timing in FA, etc. mean he won't get as much. He should take his time and try to get the biggest contract he can. And the teams should take their time and hope his price continues to drop.
     
  31. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    You keep speaking of an injury history. Outside of his shoulder surgery this year and perhaps a sports hernia, which is not uncommon even in college. Where is there a history outside of this last season ? I see none. Almost every player in the NFL has had some sort of surgery, albeit, shoulder surgery is a little complex. Just the same, I guess by your way of thinking then at least 70% of NFL players have an " injury history " Correct ?
     
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  32. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    I absolutely LOVE this, if we are trying to sign him, this is just dropping our cost. Frankly he is starting to sound to me like he has WAY too high of an opinion of himself, or a stupid agent. Not sure which.
     
  33. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I really dislike when people associate win-loss records with individual players, as if that one player is supposed to singlehandedly win games. The only position that comes close to matching that sort of expectation is quarterback. To say that someone else at another position isn't worth looking at or acquiring because they're on a bad team is intellectually lazy, IMO.
     
  34. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    C'mon, now this guys on crack ?? Give me a break. A team doesn't franchise tag a guy if he sucks, even the Rams...well, maybe Rick Spielman might have...anyway, I digress. Atogwe is a good second tier FS. He's not in the Ed Reed, Palomalo, Sanders or even Danielle Manning category but he's in that next lower group of Sharper, McCloud, Rolle etc...Of course I only put Sharper down a notch from last year due to his age... I think you underestimate good FS play. Now, is he worth the money those top guys are getting, no way. But is he as bad a player as Wilson...no way... I also think you under estimate the team he's been playing on. Our D last season, while a disappointment wasn't anywhere near as bad as the Rams were. But keep in mind that it takes a whole team to make a D good or to make it bad, not just one guy. If the pass rush isn't there, the DBs are forced to make up for the extra time the QB may have as a result of that poor pass rush. If the LBers are poor cover guys, the DBs have to make up for that as well. I'm not saying that Atogwe will put this D over the top, because it needs the revamped DL to do it's part and the group of young LBers to do their part as well. However, this D will be better with Atogwe than without him. It's not that I'm giving up on Clemons and he may very well be a good FS at some point, but to expect that this coming season would be a pleasant surprise, not a given. All that said, and as I've said all along, I just don't think the Fins are all that enamored with Atogwe at his asking price. As they did with Clark and Rolle, they'll assign a price they think is worthy and let the player decide which way to go as none of the guys we've shown interest in are in the Reed, Sanders and Palomalo class....
     
  35. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I think you are just frustrated because he seems to be holding out for more than we will pay for him, not because he is a good FS or not...
     
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  36. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    I am to be impressed that now all the club level members have entered the fray ? The portion I copied is and has been, my exact point. He is not worth the money they are looking for. Thats what I have said from the beginning. I have never said he is not a good football player, I have never said he is on the cusp of being a Pro Bowl Player. I have never said he is SOLELY responsible for all the deep TDs that were thrown against the Rams. I DID say Steve Spagnuolo had no choice but to Franchise tag the player for the year because he had no one else available and yes, Atogwe did have a good year in 2008. He was better then what was available and far more experienced then what they could pick up in the draft. Do not blame them.

    If members of the above level of this board wish to start issueing comments such as this guy is on crack, I am game for that too. I will repeat what I have said from the start, the ones of the upper tier, of which I have no interest in attending, may, at their choice, take whatever meaning they wish and twist it as they wish.

    OJ Atogwe is a good football player. OJ Atogwe just had MAJOR shoulder surgery and has not passed a physical yet. OJ Atogwe is NOT THAT GOOD to receive the 110% ( 6.9 MILLION ) of his 2009 salary. IF OJ Atogwe can pass a physical and will come down to planet earth and accept what the team thinks he is worth , then yes, sign him. If not, let him stay a Ram.

    Now, I believe I have just about covered all of it. You may proceed with the twisting, imaginary sentences and if you wish, name calling.:up: It really has no affect whatsoever. It does not change the fact, his price is falling daily, that does not happen and a can't miss player, usually doesn't and I BELIEVE, he is just out price shopping and IF there is not an offer close to what he is being hawked for, he will do one of two things.

    A Go back and sign with the Rams after his agent tries to punch them around a bit more.
    or
    B. IF he does not want to be a Ram anylonger, most likely sign a one year deal with a better team if the offer is to his likeing.

    Alrighty then, lets see what is intrepreted out of the above for the 30th time. I still stand by the original heading of the post. His value is dropping daily. One may even perceive his value is plummeting soon to hit its floor.
     
  37. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    [​IMG]
     
  38. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    I'm not sure if you're being serious or not but all the Club level means is that we donated money to help support the site. Its just a picture and all of us post in the club section as well as the main section. I wouldn't read to much into it. It's not like we are on the private section of the site (which is nice btw) plotting on how to deal with the various topics in the main section. :tongue2:
     
  39. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Did not mean anything by it at all. Atogwe is a hot topic, I just felt my thoughts were being twisted into something I did not even say or think. Have been on many boards in my lifetime and many, VIP, Club Level, regardless of the name. I find this regular message board and its posters to be one of the best I have been on, lots of fun and most people actually can have a conversation prior to them saying someone is on crack !!!!!!!!

    I am very aware of how message board Hierarchy works. The supposed " insiders " fly down to the level of the gentils when one of their own is being spoken to in a manner that stuns them. I got it, no problem with me, I just do not fold like a cheap towel. Thats all I was saying. They all can fly down and perch right in my face at the same time, does not phase me one bit. I will talk football aaaaaaaaaaaaaallll day and night long.
     
  40. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Dude!?! Am I a proletarian phin?(pfffft!)
     

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