Anybody else excited about Igbinoghene?

"djphinfan wrote:

Yawn...It’s the right thing to do..especially considering that’s exactly what the draft is, projecting if the skillset translates and what that ceiling is, and do the intangibles get you closer to your projection.

Projection is not what the draft should mainly be about in my opinion. Especially not in the first round.

The draft should be about maximizing value and minimizing risk. First round picks should ideally be proven players who have produced at a high level against good competition.

Iggy I believe is too raw and underdeveloped with not enough production against top competition to warrant a 1st round pick. I personally would have preferred a guy like Antoine Winfield Jr. or A.J. Epenesa with that pick. Two proven and well developed guys with high level production against good competition.

This iggy pick reminds me too much of the jamar fletcher pick in 2001 when we already had two stud cornerbacks in madison and surtain and decided to pick fletcher in the first round while passing on Drew Brees. Fletcher and iggy even have similar traits.

But that's just me. Let's hope iggy works out better.

"IdrA wrote:

We'll see how it pans out. For now my opinion is I don't like the positional pick (over others.) It's nothing personal against Igbinoghene, and I hope he has a great Pro career. However I believe there was a few S on the board, a WR or two that could have been more than serviceable. A DT that could have been easily turned into a 4-3 guy.

And yes I concur being deep at corner for 3 or 4 sets is valuable. That's a hole I would have filled in a later round if not next draft.

So I suppose time will tell on the matter. Most people don't think we're gonna be any good in 20-21 season anyway. If that turns out to be true it's not much of a big deal.

Yes but consider ... they had their pick of the entire draft's worth of safeties at that point. Yet, they went with Iggy at CB. While in a vacuum it seemed S to be the bigger need, the fact that we skipped EVERY one of them at that point tells me either they had Iggy rated that highly, or that they feel CB is that much more important than a safety. Probably a combination of both, so I really can't get too much on board the "should have taken a S" train.

Flores had his hands in this draft... It is a very different draft than we have seen from Grier in the past.

And as to the post about the slot cornerback

More and more we are seeing hybrid defenses... Flores is a master of this. More and more we are seeing players that can play all over the field defensively. Guy that have the speed and size to play safety, corner, or linebacker. Flores wanted to play Minkah all over the field ( Not at linebacker .. but in the slot... as a boundary corner and at safety. ) Drafting Igbinoghene gives us tremendous depth. I have no doubt we will see a lot of packages where we have 5 and 6 defensive backs on the field

"hitman8 wrote:

Projection is not what the draft should mainly be about in my opinion. Especially not in the first round.

The draft should be about maximizing value and minimizing risk. First round picks should ideally be proven players who have produced at a high level against good competition.

Iggy I believe is too raw and underdeveloped with not enough production against top competition to warrant a 1st round pick. I personally would have preferred a guy like Antoine Winfield Jr. or A.J. Epenesa with that pick. Two proven and well developed guys with high level production against good competition.

This iggy pick reminds me too much of the jamar fletcher pick in 2001 when we already had two stud cornerbacks in madison and surtain and decided to pick fletcher in the first round while passing on Drew Brees. Fletcher and iggy even have similar traits.

But that's just me. Let's hope iggy works out better.

We disagree on drafting philosophy, as long as character checks out you pick players with the highest upside of talent period.

Comparing IGB to a situation that failed decades ago tells me I can’t respect this topic with you.

While I would have been thrilled with Winfield, the draft is absolutely about projection. In fact, I would say that projecting how a college prospect will do in the NFL is all the draft is about.

"rafael wrote:

While I would have been thrilled with Winfield, the draft is absolutely about projection. In fact, I would say that projecting how a college prospect will do in the NFL is all the draft is about.

And one must never forget that a lot of them are just Scientific Wild @$$ guesses..... or at least wind up looking like that. The number of crashed and burned #1 pick players should be a strong indicator of that.

"djphinfan wrote:

We disagree on drafting philosophy, as long as character checks out you pick players with the highest upside of talent period.

Comparing IGB to a situation that failed decades ago tells me I can’t respect this topic with you.

We have proof in our roster that no one can predict how a draftee will turn out.

Who would have thought in the summer of '18 that the No. 10 pick of that year’s draft would within two years be the third QB, at best, for the fifth worst team in the entire NFL?

"djphinfan wrote:

We disagree on drafting philosophy, as long as character checks out you pick players with the highest upside of talent period.

Comparing IGB to a situation that failed decades ago tells me I can’t respect this topic with you.

We agree to disagree. I value production against top competition over subjective projections of upside based on raw talent.

Especially in the first round it is a better bet to go with proven productive talent. Upside projections should be reserved for the later rounds.

As for the jamar fletcher comparison there are some similarities between the two situations and the two players as well. Both late first rounders who were seen as reaches at a time when we were already set at CB. Which is why it reminded me of said situation.

"hitman8 wrote:

We agree to disagree. I value production against top competition over subjective projections of upside based on raw talent.

Especially in the first round it is a better bet to go with proven productive talent. Upside projections should be reserved for the later rounds.

As for the jamar fletcher comparison there are some similarities between the two situations and the two players as well. Both late first rounders who were seen as reaches at a time when we were already set at CB. Which is why it reminded me of said situation.

you continue to self destruct your own opinion by making illogical conclusions..

it’s the same as saying you wouldn’t take Tua because Alabama doesn’t produce hi level Qbs in the modern era, so You should just stay away from that school when you’re looking for a Qb..IGB and Jamar Fletcher do not have the same skill sets..one was a bust, the other is a first round pick waiting to play his first game..to compare fletcher the bust to IGB is illogical.

IGB deserves a real evaluation based on his personal talent, character, and how his skillet projects to the pros..

Folks that know what their doing get that.

Production against top competition you say is your foundation to draft a player, I say that’s just the beginning of the evaluation, your philosophy completely disregards the impact of variables on individual players.

Here is an interesting read on what SI thinks are the most important traits by position. Here is what they said about cornerback. They did this in 2019, but I left the players they selected on who has it and who doesn't because then we can see if what they said is accurate or not. When it comes to Igbinoghene, no doubt he is a work in progress, but all our draft picks are. I will also suggest that since it is such an important position that there might be a slight premium added to cornerbacks. Production wise, maybe Igbinoghene was rated as a 2nd rounder. However, when you consider his traits, athletic ability, and his projected ceiling, plus the premium added because he is a cornerback, then it was probably good we got him where we did.

Cornerback
Most important trait: Man-to-man coverage ability

If a player doesn’t have it, he’s a liability in most third-down coverages, forcing the safety to help the player and prompting a costly trickle-down of limitations on a defense’s scheme. Even in zone coverage, man-to-man ability is often required. The most common zone coverage, by far, is Cover 3, where there’s one safety in centerfield and another safety creeping down into the box. Cornerbacks in Cover 3 are responsible for the furthest outside receiver, and the technique a corner employs in running this receiver amounts to a variation of man-to-man.

Who has this trait: Jalen Ramsey (Round 1, 2016 draft)

Who doesn’t: Dee Milliner (Round 1, 2013 draft)

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/03/20/nfl-draft-evaluation-most-important-trait

The great thing about igbinoghene is that he can play man or press. He is fast and physical. For the people that criticise this pick saying it is based on projection.... They are wrong. This kid can play and he will play this year. He is not a basket case that will need three years of coaching to be a decent player. He is going to make a positive impact on this defense this year. He is a rookie and he will make a mistake here and there... But make no mistake he is a gamer... Smart, hard working, incredibly gifted athletically. The only knock on him is that he is not 6 foot 2... If he was he would likely have gone as the first defensive back drafted.

"djphinfan wrote:

you continue to self destruct your own opinion by making illogical conclusions..

it’s the same as saying you wouldn’t take Tua because Alabama doesn’t produce hi level Qbs in the modern era, so You should just stay away from that school when you’re looking for a Qb..IGB and Jamar Fletcher do not have the same skill sets..one was a bust, the other is a first round pick waiting to play his first game..to compare fletcher the bust to IGB is illogical.

IGB deserves a real evaluation based on his personal talent, character, and how his skillet projects to the pros..

Folks that know what their doing get that.

Production against top competition you say is your foundation to draft a player, I say that’s just the beginning of the evaluation, your philosophy completely disregards the impact of variables on individual players.

Your Tua analogy is a non starter. Tua did produce at a high level against top competition, so he meets my criteria for a first round pick. My problems with the tua pick have more to do with his injury history. Like I said minimizing risk should also be a big part of the equation specially early on in the draft.

I never said production should be the only criteria, just a very important one. And for first round picks I would say consistent high level production along with low injury and character risks should be prerequisites if we want to avoid drafting more busts.

"hitman8 wrote:

We agree to disagree. I value production against top competition over subjective projections of upside based on raw talent.

Especially in the first round it is a better bet to go with proven productive talent. Upside projections should be reserved for the later rounds.

As for the jamar fletcher comparison there are some similarities between the two situations and the two players as well. Both late first rounders who were seen as reaches at a time when we were already set at CB. Which is why it reminded me of said situation.

As someone who hated the Jamar Fletcher selection at the time there are two main differences between the situation.

#1) The NFL has changed. Back in the Jamar Fletcher times running backs were still king and the idea of starting three cornerbacks seemed crazy sauce. In today's NFL starting three cornerbacks is common and the nickleback plays just as much as the 3rd linebacker and in a lot of defenses, more so.

#2) Fletcher was one of the best zone cornerbacks to have ever played college football. The Dolphins played a man scheme at the time. Iggbinoghe is going into a system where cornerbacks are king and he plays the exact way Miami wants him to play. He is a perfect fit. Plus if he works out he gives them an out on Howard if they want in a few years.

"hitman8 wrote:

Your Tua analogy is a non starter. Tua did produce at a high level against top competition, so he meets my criteria for a first round pick. My problems with the tua pick have more to do with his injury history. Like I said minimizing risk should also be a big part of the equation specially early on in the draft.

I never said production should be the only criteria, just a very important one. And for first round picks I would say consistent high level production along with low injury and character risks should be prerequisites if we want to avoid drafting more busts.

Oh I see you have a problem with the Tua pick as well

Yeah we don’t need to discuss this anymore..you’re on another planet with all your drafting philosophies

"Etrius24 wrote:

The great thing about igbinoghene is that he can play man or press. He is fast and physical. For the people that criticise this pick saying it is based on projection.... They are wrong. This kid can play and he will play this year. He is not a basket case that will need three years of coaching to be a decent player. He is going to make a positive impact on this defense this year. He is a rookie and he will make a mistake here and there... But make no mistake he is a gamer... Smart, hard working, incredibly gifted athletically. The only knock on him is that he is not 6 foot 2... If he was he would likely have gone as the first defensive back drafted.

I just find it kind of odd noone here wanted him or mentioned him before the draft but suddenly we are all sure hes going to be a star.

I think everyone needs to hold their horses and let the kid play instead of gushing over him.

Just my 2 cents.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

I just find it kind of odd noone here wanted him or mentioned him before the draft but suddenly we are all sure hes going to be a star.

I think everyone needs to hold their horses and let the kid play instead of gushing over him.

Just my 2 cents.

What is the fun in that?

I don't find that odd. There are a lot of players in the draft and no everyone is going to be known by everyone.

Also, he was someone I heard about by various draft experts before the draft.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

What is the fun in that?

I don't find that odd. There are a lot of players in the draft and no everyone is going to be known by everyone.

Also, he was someone I heard about by various draft experts before the draft.

I'm not saying people shouldnt like his upside or think he can succeed.

It's just that it seems like people now suddenly think hes a top 5 talent destined for success. That seems a little over the top.

I know noone used those specific words but it's definitely the vibe of the conversation.

I'm agnostic at this point on what the plan is in re: to Igbinoghene, but I think this is a pretty good article on why you're spending so much resources on cornerbacks... they really want to play Cover-1:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/05/new-england-patriots-defense-2019-concept-analysis

I'm suspicious they're working towards a specific defensive identity here- where elite coverage corners(and a CB at FS) allows them to basically sit in single-high coverage shells all day and reap the benefits of a regular rather than situational box safety.

"Disgustipate wrote:

I'm agnostic at this point on what the plan is in re: to Igbinoghene, but I think this is a pretty good article on why you're spending so much resources on cornerbacks... they really want to play Cover-1:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/05/new-england-patriots-defense-2019-concept-analysis

I'm suspicious they're working towards a specific defensive identity here- where elite coverage corners(and a CB at FS) allows them to basically sit in single-high coverage shells all day and reap the benefits of a regular rather than situational box safety.

Nice read! Any ideas on who we have that will be able to play cover-1, at a high level, for us?

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

Nice read! Any ideas on who we have that will be able to play cover-1, at a high level, for us?

In terms of the middle of the field safety? Unless they're converting a corner we haven't heard about, I think it's probably Bobby McCain and Adrian Colbert still.

I will admit I was not talking about him before the draft.

I had a list of players I thought that fit our needs. I would have drafted differently than the Dolphins did.

I would totally have traded up for the niners pick in the first round and grabbed Kinlaw at DT.... He was an elite player and a steal at that spot.... STEAL

The next pick... Yeah I am okay with Igbinoghene there and then Hunt.... Because we had Kinlaw we would not take another DT... So that pick would be AJ Dillon or Denzel Mims. Dillon would make trading for Breida unnecessary.

Sign Warford ( Who is an above average guard and on the market ) Hunt Plays Tackle... Warford and Flowers start at guard

Now we picked up a couple of really interesting wide receivers late. So I am intrigued... I really wanted Mims. But I was in love with Dillon...

So if we had Kinlaw instead of Davis at DT and Dillon instead of Breida.... I would be on cloud fooking nine right now.

Kinlaw gets pressure on the QB from inside. With him our pass rush would be strong. He is such a disruptive force.

With Warford and Flowers around Karras Dillon would have blocking to rumble... and holy shit can he rumble

"hitman8 wrote:

Iggy I believe is too raw and underdeveloped with not enough production against top competition to warrant a 1st round pick. I personally would have preferred a guy like Antoine Winfield Jr. or A.J. Epenesa with that pick. Two proven and well developed guys with high level production against good competition.

This iggy pick reminds me too much of the jamar fletcher pick in 2001 when we already had two stud cornerbacks in madison and surtain and decided to pick fletcher in the first round while passing on Drew Brees. Fletcher and iggy even have similar traits.

But that's just me. Let's hope iggy works out better.

You just shut your filthy whore mouth right now. Jamar F.N. Fletcher was sent by the devil! There will never. Ever. Be another pick as horrible as that one in the History of the Dolphins. EVER.

"Puka-head wrote:

You just shut your filthy whore mouth right now. Jamar F.N. Fletcher was sent by the devil! There will never. Ever. Be another pick as horrible as that one in the History of the Dolphins. EVER.

Yeah because Pat White turned out to be absolutely golden..... *Facepalms*

Iggy is strong, fast, can tackle, can cover and can play every position in the defensive backfield (DB wise).

He's a homerun!