Andy Reid/Donovan McNabb Era

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by anlgp, Nov 10, 2008.

  1. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    As a phin fan living in Eagles country it's not a secret (around me anyway) that they're my second favorite team and first fav. in the NFC.

    I've seen the rise (5 NFC division titles or something like that and a SB appearance) and what looks like the fall (losing the SB -btw the patriots probably cheated them out of it, it was a 4 point loss and they said they felt the pats knew what they were doing and then last year there's spygate- and since then) of the andy reid donovan mcnabb era.

    They just don't seem to have the same playing mentality that they used to. I guess part of it could be that westbrook, dawkins (longest philadelphia athlete in any sport), mcnabb are getting older.. they've had several draft picks that were busts (a couple of second round LBers, freddie mitchell, etc).

    they're supposed to have a top secondary in the league with sheldon brown/asante sameul/lito sheppard.. brian dawkins.. etc. there are a lot of unsung guys too. quintin mikell, steward bradley, omar gaither, chris gocong..

    Was the superbowl loss the beginning of the end for donovan mcnabb, andy reid and co? are the eagles brian westbrook and do they go when he goes? would you consider them in a rebuilding phase? or heading towards one? mcnabb/westbrook won't be there for too too much longer, dawkins too. and they're who I consider the heart of that (old) eagles team.


    Discuss :)
     
  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Never been a Reid fan, he seems to be getting worse every year. Terrible calls, no sense of clock/time management and utterly clueless with challenges. IMO hes in the bottom half of the league coaching wise atm but everyone still pretends hes a top guy. Not buying it.

    As for McNabb, I wonder if they will explore trade options with him over the summer and see what Kolb is like. That Giants game was stunning to me. That last drive .... was a total repeat of the super bowl. Almost 30 seconds before the 2 and couldnt get a play off with McNabb just standing there sucking wind like he was a NT who just rumbled 90 yards on a fumble recovery. Incredible. You have a shot to knock off the division leaders on your home turf and just stand there watching the clock bleed away.

    I feel the Eagles have gone as far as they can with those 2, especially Reid. They are a team that everyone overestimates because they consistently win (often convincingly) against the lesser teams, but always seem to blow the big ones.
     
  3. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I used to think highly of Andy Reid because I thought he was a good coach but he has gone downhill. They're not prepared very well, they don't seem to have smart gameplans, poor calls offensively and not great drafting. They have a lot of starters from drafts, something like 11 starters from the first three rounds of every draft since Reid took over in '99 but they aren't good players. Other than McNabb and Westbrook, the other nine starters have been average. They need to fix that offensive line. As I said prior to last nights game, they need to get some power up there. They tried to overpower a very strong Giants defensive line last night and it did not work. We saw it on the back-to-back short yardage calls inside the two minute warning. I think it was 3rd and 1, they couldn't pick up a first down. Then on 4th and 1, they ran a stretch, thinking they would overpower the Giants and they got knocked back. Tolfelson made that play if I remember correctly. They finally got a playmaking WR in DeSean Jackson. He's electric and knows how to operate in the open field. He has surprised me in getting open so early in his NFL career. He's about 170 pounds and I figured DB's would jam him but he has such a quick first step that its nearly impossible to jam him at the LOS. What they need is a big WR opposite of Jackson. They thought Hank Baskett would be that guy after he impressed in training camp. He worked with Harold Carmichael and Baskett has made some plays this year. I think he has a couple plays of 80+ yards but he's still average. Back to the draft picks, they pride themselves on the draft and they don't do so well in it. They should have made that move for Roy Williams when they had the chance to but it would have never happened because Reid is very protective of his draft picks. Until he starts moving them draft picks for starters, they will struggle on the offensive side of the ball. You brought up Brian Westbrook and I wonder how long he can do this. He's a large part of that offense and gets the ball often. He gets dinged up every year and he's 29 years old now. In a couple years, he could be hitting that RB wall. By the way, I think McNabb is a great QB and I don't think he's the problem there. If they choose to move him, Kolb is going to be a good QB IMO. I watched him in the pre-season where he went up against the Patriots first team defense. McNabb played about a series that game and they handed the keys to Kolb. In his first drive, he led the team to a 96 yard drive in a short time. I really like him.

    On defense, Jim Johnson can only do so much. He puts his guys in position to succeed but they fail to execute. He is arguably the most creative defensive mind in the league. Him and Monte Kiffin are up there for sure. As you said, Brian Dawkins, a guy whose been the heart and soul of that defense, has gotten up there in age and he's done after this year IMO. I think their secondary needs help from the defensive line. The defensive line is having trouble stopping the run again this year and they aren't sacking the Quarterback. Trent Cole, whose an outstanding pass rusher in my opinion, hasn't gotten to the QB as much this year. He has five sacks. Darren Howard has six sacks. They need a guy on the opposite side of Trent Cole. I know they thought very highly of Victor Abiamiri out of Notre Dame in training camp and they thought he was a guy who would win that starting job but he broke his wrist. He has played in only four games this year and hasn't done anything. Stewart Bradley isn't helping that run defense IMO. I watched him last night and he didn't seem to react quick enough. I would like to see Joe Mays out there, the division II prospect who didn't get invited to the combine. He impressed me in pre-season. A guy who can get sideline to sideline and has a good motor. He's always around the ball and can rack up tackles. He led the pre-season in tackles. He's undersized at 5'10" or so but he's in a 43 defense and he isn't asked to take on blockers. I think he can be a good player in Philadelphia. The secondary will be a very good one once the front seven starts making some plays.
     
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  4. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Thanks guys.

    I agree McNabb is a good QB. He's still got some zing on the ball and he can still move around a bit. With that being said he can't move quite as often as he used to and he needs to be protected by his OLine. As the announcers mentioned Philadelphia isn't a power running team. They like to run screens a lot but Westbrook can't do all the work.

    I'd also like to point out if it isn't obvious by now as long as Reid is around McNabb will be the starting QB as long as he's not taking medicine for alzheimers before games. Kolb looks good from what I can tell in the preseason but if McNabb can go and wants to go Reid will have him in. Reid drafted McNabb and they've been on the same team for 10 years. The two are tied together at the hip; which is a good thing for them I think.

    Let it also be known that Reid has a good relationship with Laurie (the owner) and so he probably won't be getting canned.

    The previous comments are based on those players running the show. Dawkins, Westbrook, McNabb, Samuel, Sheppard, Brown. Some of them are up there in age.. others just can't be the entire show. I think if they were getting help elsewhere they'd be alright but these marquee players can't carry the whole team.

    Also as to the draft picks I think Reid makes good middle round picks.. he likes to trade his #1 picks for 2 and 3rd rounders (he had two last year I think and they were both traded). Westbrook and Mays immediately come to mind (Westbrook is proven and Mays looks to be a monster). McNabb was a good pick but you've got McDougle who was basically a bust.. and several others who I can't think of. I think Mitchell was a high round pick. He's 29 and owns some kind of food establishment in FL somewhere.

    That's fine if you want to scope out through the draft but I agree sometimes if a proven player comes up in FA or he's being dangled as a trade prospect you've got to give a pick for that guy IMO.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2008
  5. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    McNabb has still got some movement. Obviously its not like before because of all the leg injuries. I think he's had a broken ankle, sports hernia, torn ACL and a couple others. Also, I think the loss of Shawn Andrews hasn't helped him one bit. He's a Pro Bowl Guard that is surrounded by a weak interior offensive line. I like the Tackles but again, I don't think they're suited for a power running style and neither is their RB.

    One thing I have to give Reid credit for is turning McNabb into a pocket Quarterback. That was something that had to be done. McNabb ran a lot in his early days, I think he holds a couple QB rushing playoff records. He's learned to stay in the pocket and scramble only when he needs to.
     
  6. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Yeah he definitely needed to stay in the pocket. There's a saying that goes something along the lines of "you can't change the position the position changes you". ie. if you're a more mobile QB you'll eventually have to stay in the pocket. I don't think a QBs job is to run for the sake of running - which mcnabb did a lot - but running to buy time to make plays. he does the latter now and not the former.

    i meant to mention andrews. gilles isn't so bad I don't think (i saw him in the second level a lot in the preseason) but he's not andrews that's for sure. their tackles are getting up there in age, too. runyan and thomas, i think. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2008
  7. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Yeah, I think the Tackles are getting up there in age as you say. The pocket Quarterback is what hampered Mike Vick. He couldn't learn to stay in the pocket. McNabb did and he got the team to the SB one year.
     
  8. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    I always liked Donovan McNabb. He used to be a running QB but obviously, to succeed and stay in this league, you need to be able to operate in the pocket. It's why I don't really like seeing running QB's in the NFL.

    They haven't been as strong as they used to be but I think with little less injuries, they're still a force to be reckoned with. They've done alright in making transitions from aged to youth but this is a team that lives and dies on their star players (McNabb, Westbrook, Dawkins). The secondary should be much better than it is right now (ranked #6) but I think with more time together, they'll pick up.
     
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  9. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    McNabb struggles to complete 50% of his passes.
     
  10. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    :confused:

    Was never lower than 57%.
     
  11. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Jesus. Eight sacks by the Eagles and a forced fumble and they end up tying the Bengals in OT. Didn't get to watch the game but McNabb had three INT's and it looks like Andy Reid is still trying to get that power O running but of course, it isn't working. I wonder when he'll figure out that it won't work.
     
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  12. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I watched the game after the phins game ended.. which was basically the remaining minutes of the 4th quarter and the whole OT period.

    Ya know what drives me nuts? When McNabb throws bad passes and he's over there smiling his brains out.
     
  13. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Was their secondary that bad today? Because the defensive line looked pretty good in the sacks column.
     
  14. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Samuel made a couple of awesome plays apparently (my dad says).

    Top three reasons they tied:

    Rocca
    McNabb
    Play Calling
     
  15. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Oh wow, didn't even notice Rocca's day. 31 yards per punt. That defense seems like it did a good job and the offense just blew it for them.
     
  16. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    On the press conference for the birds last night Donovan said he didn't know that the games could end in a tie.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVZg639gJ4]YouTube - tie? tie?[/ame]

    10 years in the league and you don't know that the game can end in a tie?!

    Sure it might not have ever happened to you but it's your job to know that these things can happen!
     
  17. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Yeah that was pretty awful of both him, and by reflection, the coaching staff and Reid. Really? You dont know that?
    Worse, he almost made it seem like he wasnt going out there with the kind of intensity needed to win the game. Ohhhhhhh, we have more time, no biggie. Its ok guys, lets just wait for the next OT period.

    Pretty bad.
     
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  18. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    What's even worse is that QB rating. Ouch.
     
  19. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I agree. I heard the rule changed recently (i'm not sure if that's true) but even if it's not you go out and play with intensity. none of this "oh i've got time" crap.

    and even if you DON'T know the rule (which I find hard to believe with him playing 8 OT games in his career and being a 10 year vet) then you AT LEAST go out and play in OT like it IS your last chance.
     
  20. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Speaking of the word last, is this McNabb's last season in Philadelphia? The writer of this article thinks so.
     
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  21. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Thanks for the article Alen. The fans around here have been calling for his head ever since that two minute drive FUBAR in the SB. Some column writers around here have been as well.

    IMO as long as Andy Reid is there then so is Donovan McNabb.
     
  22. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Anytime.

    I concur. I think the emergence of Kyle Orton in Chicago has ended the possible move of McNabb. I thought Chicago or Minnesota were the only destinations for him. Minnesota is still possible though. It'll be an interesting off-season in Philadelphia.
     
  23. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    The one other issue is the cap hit the birds would take in trying to move McNabb. If you rely on these numbers alone it would be a big hit.

    Philadelphia Eagles Salary Cap -- Donovan McNabb

    1,166,666

    After taking a look at it.. it's much better to move him this year if they can't wait than any other year. Obviously besides the ones where they don't have any dead money.
     
  24. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    If he wants to move, he'll restructure that contract and a deal would be done.
     
  25. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    If Reid is so tied to Donovan, why did he draft Kolb? They were obviously scouting him and were very high on him.
     
  26. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Every QB needs a replacement at some point.

    I could be wrong. They could move him and could have been waiting for this point so they don't take that big of a hit. It would certainly show why they've waited this long.

    I have watched the eagles since mcnabb came into this league and the PCs and everytime someone criticizes mcnabb reid is there to back him up and vice versa. mcnabb is there for reid with his whole family situation.

    it has just looked that way the whole time.
     
  27. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Possibly as a capable backup and injury safety as we know McNabb misses time just about every year. That could be the reason but I think Kolb is there to lead that team in the future.
     
  28. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Okay so the eagles benched mcnabb yesterday. The media around here is on fire. Our local sports radio station (WIP for those in the know) has a personality that thinks the first rounders (if they don't trade them - they have 2) should go to the Oline (citing max jean-gilles and justice.. and also their tackles are getting up there in age). The next pick in round 2 should go to a RB. They're satisfied w/Kolb at the moment. They also say they should move Stewart Bradley from MLB over to the outside where GoCong is and put Joe Mays in at MLB (I agree w/them on these things).

    What do you think their biggest issue is?
     
  29. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    In reference to the move of Bradley, I think Gocong is decent enough outside and I wonder how Bradley fits out there. I have been on the bandwagon of Joe Mays since the pre-season. He reads well, can get sideline to sideline, racks up tackles and is in command.

    Re: draft - They have bigger issues than to go with a RB in round two in my opinion. Problem with Reid is that he goes after offensive line but he doesn't hit on the pick (4 total offensive linemen on the current roster since '99 & those four are from '05-'06 drafts), outside of Shawn Andrews and Todd Herremans. Herremans hasn't been great (moved from OT to OG) but he's a starter. The Tackles they currently have were there prior to Reid's arrival. I believe William "Tra" Thomas was selected by Michael Lombardi ('98) as well as Jon Runyan (selected in '96; I could be wrong on Runyan, I know Thomas for sure). I think they have to go Tackle in the first round. A key thing at the selection of a Tackle is that they have to know what they want to do scheme-wise prior to that selection. Do they want to be a power offense or finesse? They have tried to power this year and it has proved unsuccessful time and time again. If they have two in the first as you say, I say go get Rashad Johnson of Alabama (assuming that its not as high of a pick) to be the replacement for Brian Dawkins. Johnson has the athleticism you want, he has the speed, closes well on the ball and plays ST's very well. He gets a little high in his hips in my opinion but that can be corrected. In the second round, hit on a Guard and a Defensive End if they have another second or in the third. In the fourth, they can go after a Running Back if they would like. I realize Brian Westbrook is getting close to that RB wall and that he is missing time every year.

    All that said, they have to hit on these draft picks to be a competitive team like they were in the past. As the cliche goes, "you need talent to evaluate talent" and quite frankly, I don't think they have that talent in the upper management.
     
  30. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Runyan was actually drafted by the oilers. They could move Mikell over to replace Dawkins and Considine over to replace Mikell (even if it's short term). They've also got Quentin Demps who they drafted for FS. Westbrook missing time and declining is why I say they need a RB.
     
  31. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Thanks for the correction on Runyan.

    Mikell is a nice player, keep him at SS and draft Johnson at FS. Considine is average, JMO. Demps is a special teamer at best. I wasn't too impressed by him when I caught a couple games of him. I like Rashad Johnson over those guys.

    I agree that they need a RB but I don't think they should go in the 2nd when they have issues in the trenches.
     
  32. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I don't follow college football all that well like you do but I still say take the #1s and get linemen with them. Maybe even with the #2 pick as well. I'd shuffle around the LBers before I'd draft any mainly because if you do move Bradley over and stick Mays in and it works you've taken care of a lot right there and that frees up picks. They might have to draft a safety but I'd at least try moving them before drafting.

    The main reason I'm shuffling so many LBers and the safeties before drafting them is because I'd use the top picks on the line to get them younger in a hurry. Look at this:

    Tra Thomas, 11 years exp.
    John Runyan, 13 years exp.

    Also there's Andrews at RG. He's done for the season

    Eagles Notes: Andrews may be done for season | Philadelphia Inquirer | 11/22/2008

    Andrews is a PB caliber guard there's no doubt about it but his backup RG is the epitome of sucktitude.

    On D:

    Parker has 8 years experience
    The other guys look alright in terms of years (age). Not basing this on talent except for jean gilles.

    If anything I get tackles as both Thomas and Runyan are ancient. Maybe a G in a backup because of Andrews.
     
  33. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Nothing wrong with doubling up early in the trenches my friend. I was just giving an option.

    I don't think they need to go Linebacker, at least not early. They can get that later in the draft as they have a high amount of draft picks annually. However, I do think that they need to go Defensive End in the draft.

    Re: shuffling Safeties - I understand what your saying here and I don't think its necessarily wrong to try and shuffle them. How I'm looking at this is an upgrade of the position. If you can upgrade the Safety spot or any position as a matter of fact, then go for it. Never be set with what you.

    I concur that Shawn Andrews is a top-notch Guard in this league and I agree that they need some Guards. I don't think they can go wrong with a draft of LT,RT,OG,DE. (no particular order). I think offensive and defensive fronts are musts for this team.
     
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  34. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Who do you think isn't producing at end?
     
  35. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Andy Reid, upper management, offensive line, & Quarterback.

    Just my opinion.
     
  36. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    i meant at DE. :D
     
  37. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    My bad, I thought you meant at the end.

    At defensive end, I think they just need a guy who consistently puts pressure on the Quarterback. Darren Howard has made plays this year , Jaqua Parker has 5 sacks, Trent Cole has made some sacks and he's dropped in coverage as well. If they can get this production out of Howard on a consistent basis, they'll be fine. However, he is 32 years old and will need to be replaced. Can Parker replace him on a full-time basis? A few questions to be answered.

    I wasn't aware of how well the defensive line has played this year. 39 sacks total, leads league.
     
  38. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    They have a few interceptions as well. This is why I don't understand it when people trash their Dline and say the front seven aren't getting the pressure to make their secondary work.
     
  39. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Yep. I wasn't aware of how well they have played. Not necessarily trashing them but I do think they need a consistent guy opposite of Trent Cole still. Whether that ends up being Darren Howard or a draft pick, I don't know. We'll have to see.
     
  40. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Well.

    That blocked kick returned for a TD to put the Giants within 3 at the half pretty much describes this season to a T.
     

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