An Interesting perspective on Vince Young

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dr Drunkenstein, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. Dr Drunkenstein

    Dr Drunkenstein New Member

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    A guy wrote this for a Redskins blog but the same arguments can be made relative to bringing him to Miami:

    There seems to be no hotter topic right now, on the minds of Redskins fans, than the possibility of Vince Young being signed. The overwhelming majority of fan sentiment related to this possibility is negative. In the hefty shadow of Albert Haynesworth—and numerous other high profile free agent disasters—many think Vince is another “Problem Child” and therefore a poor investment relative to time and money. This is not a fact-based decision, but an emotional one. It involves wounded pride and bruised egos for many Washington fans. And the consensus couldn’t be more wrong.
    The argument against Vince Young has to be emotionally based because the facts are so strongly in favor of signing him. Rookie of the Year, two Pro-Bowls, and a 64% winning percentage that is by far the best career mark of any full time starter (20 or more games) in the history of the Oilers/Titans franchise. His historical QB Rating and completion percentage are so far ahead of traditional NFL “bust’ levels that this argument is laughable. And he did all of this with a receiving corps that is as anonymous to most NFL fans as the lineup for the Indian National Cricket squad. Still, there is the public perception of Vince Young as an ill-tempered, occasionally suicidal, spoiled brat who would be a cancer to any franchise. Any fair and unbiased analysis of the situation and the facts, however, yields an overwhelming case that Vince has arguably behaved admirably in the midst of a bizarre and unique situation, the likes of which the NFL has never before experienced.
    I am going to make a statement about Vince Young’s time in Tennessee that will seem hyperbolic to anyone unfamiliar with what actually happened:
    In the history of the NFL, no Top 3 selection has ever had a head coach work against him as much as Jeff Fisher worked against Vince Young.
    On the surface, this sounds ridiculous, but remember, we are talking about a team run by Bud Adams—just Google the story of his “interaction” with former Houston Mayor Kathy Whitmire and you will soon be convinced that Bud is crazier than a sprayed roach. The Oilers/Titans have been waging a war against reason and common sense since the Eisenhower administration, and they have the lack of Lombardi trophies to prove it.
    The nightmare for Young started a whopping five seconds into his tenure as the “Quarterback of the Future” for the Tennessee Titans. This clip of Vince from the moment after he was drafted (click here) has some disheartening commentary by Chris Mortensen, who talks about “public differences” between GM Floyd Reese (solidly in Young’s camp) and head coach Jeff Fisher (who wanted to draft Matt Leinart). How often do you hear about “public differences” between the GM and the head coach of a team… within seconds of making a #3 overall selection?!? The fallout and continued animosity generated by the selection of Vince Young would divide these two men to such an extreme that Reese, the GM with the most wins in Oilers/Titans history, decided to leave when his contract expired at the end of 2006. What became of Reese? How adversely did the selection of Young and the feud with Fisher affect his career? He is now the Senior Football Adviser in the Patriots organization.
    The September 2008 incident in which Vince Young was rumored to be “suicidal” and perhaps a “threat to himself or others” was a masterstroke in negative spin. Fisher did a superb job of making a mountain out of a molehill so as to alienate and separate himself from Young as his quarterback. The facts are these: Vince Young left an evening meeting at the Titans complex very frustrated by Fisher (can you blame him?), didn’t answer his phones for a few hours, went out to eat with a male friend and then went to a female friend’s apartment. That is it. Of course, Fisher manipulated the situation to the highest degree possible in an attempt to rid himself of Young once and for all. Calls to the police were made. There was talk that Vince had a gun (he did… in accordance with state law; it was known he kept an unloaded pistol in his glove compartment). There was talk that Vince had mentioned “suicide” to a team therapist (of course, all parties would later agree that every element of this incident was blown out of proportion). When Vince was finally reached by phone, he drove back to the Titans complex, where crisis negotiators and SWAT members gave Vince the once-over and quickly released him. Vince was fine. He always had been. This was another attempt to publicly embarrass him, just like his draft day, and it worked like a charm.
    The manufactured controversies and overall undermining of Vince Young allowed Fisher to start his new favorite, Kerry Collins, in 2009. Collins lost one game… and another… and another… and another. The pathetic Collins would start 0-6 that year, yet Fisher still didn’t want to bench him for Young. His pride wouldn’t allow it. He was willing to lose games in order to ruin the career of Vince Young and to serve his own ego. Think this is balderdash? It isn’t. The owner of the Titans had to publicly threaten Fisher with his job if Young didn’t get the start after the bye week. Fisher had to be ordered to play Young. And the owner was right. The Titans would win five in a row and seven out of eight—with the same personnel that was winless under Collins—and the only loss during that span was a close one on the road to eventual AFC champ Indianapolis. Vince young would go 8-2 to get the Titans to a .500 record.
    Think of how insane this is… an owner having to intervene in this way, and with the subsequent result. It is unprecedented.
    I hope you will take the time to read this article (click here) by Lisa Swan, entitled “Vince Young Proves Titans’ Owner Bud Adams Right; Coach Jeff Fisher Wrong,” which was written after Vince had won the first three games in his return.
    Here are some highlights:
    The Tennessee Titans, who beat the Buffalo Bills Sunday, 41-17, have won three in a row with Vince Young as starting quarterback. So the team is looking, well, in-Vince-ible these days, after starting out 0-6. But head coach Jeff Fisher has some explaining to do. After all, if Fisher had gotten his way, Young would still be holding the clipboard on the sidelines, with Kerry Collins continuing to “lead” the Titans to an 0-9 record.

    In a victory for meddling NFL owners everywhere, team owner Bud Adams proved to be absolutely right in his demand last month that Fisher start Young. The Titans had lost six games in a row under Collins, with their worst loss of the season - and maybe of the franchise’s history - coming in Game 6, when the New England Patriots slaughtered them in Foxboro, 59-0. Collins had an all-time bad game, going 2-for-12, with minus-seven yards. The Nashville Tennessean said the Titans “set the game of football back 50 years” with the game, and suggested the loss might be the worst not just in Titans’ history, but in NFL history.

    After such a horrible defeat, most coaches would be chastened. Not Fisher. First, the coach made light of the team’s bad state, wearing a Peyton Manning jersey at a charity event. Fisher’s excuse for donning the arch-rival Indianapolis Colts’ #18? He said he “just wanted to feel like a winner today.” Titans fans weren’t exactly pleased by his sense of humor.
    Of course, after Vince’s run of success—using the same personnel with which Collins had been utterly humiliated—even Fisher was sure to see the error of his ways… right? WRONG.
    From the same article:
    I’m still in Kerry Collins’s corner because I don’t believe that our record is a reflection of the quarterback play. It’s a reflection of the team play. I’m still in his corner, but we’ve decided to go ahead and make this change.

    THIS is Jeff Fisher. THIS is what Vince young was dealing with, season after season, game after game, hour after hour. Swan also commented, “If Fisher still believes that, then he ought to be the next Titan to lose his job.” She is dead-on, but this isn’t an organization with a blueprint for winning like the Steelers or Patriots. Fisher was allowed to continue his reindeer games.
    And it took a toll on Vince. There was a crazy fight in a strip club just because a guy had made an insulting comment about the University of Texas. Vince had been hearing those taunts for the better part of a decade and had never responded. Not even a little bit. Not once. But the professional hell he was living in was taking a toll. Sure, he was still doing good things. Working with schoolkids, spending time with Steve McNair’s tragically fatherless children… but those types of stories aren’t as sexy as a late night strip club dust-up, so this will be the first time many of you hear about these things. Vince has been far from flawless, yet one can’t help but wonder what an even more emotionally reckless quarterback, like Ben Roethlisberger for instance, would have done if his world had been turned upside down and the Steelers had worked against him at every turn. It would be a miracle, based on his history, if the worst blemish on Big Ben’s record had been a strip club fight, if their roles were reversed.
    The final chapter came at the end of last season. Finally, Vince would be pushed far enough that he would demonstratively lash out. After years of swallowing his pride, after years of Fisher’s ego trumping common sense and the best interest of the team, Vince had had enough. He wanted to play hurt; remember the public humiliation Cutler received for the perception that he didn’t want to play hurt? Well after he tore the flexor tendon in his right thumb, and with his team’s playoff chances hanging in the balance, Vince was pleading to go back in the game. His pleas fell on deaf ears. I realize not too many of us are familiar with the 6th Round rookie from Florida Atlantic, Rusty Smith, but I think it is a safe bet that Vince trying to bounce the ball off of his forehead would be a better option than Smith trying to save the season. Vince was enraged, his shoulder pads went into the stands, harsh words were said to Fisher and Young prematurely left the facilities. Of course he shouldn’t have done these things. Still, any judgment of Vince Young’s actions must be tempered with the knowledge of his experiences in Tennessee. How much could any player be expected to take? How many years do you have to be a good solider for a coach who has proven, beyond any reasonable argument, that he does not have the best interest of the team at heart?
    No signing comes without risk. Seeing how the Shanahan’s treated McNabb last season makes me nervous for how Young could be treated here too. But I don’t need to tell you guys about the ties Kyle has with Vince, going back to the University of Texas. These bonds mean something. Kyle knows what Vince can do under pressure. For all of the “Vince Can’t Handle The Pressure In DC” talk, people need to understand the pressure that exists for the starting quarterback of the Texas Longhorns. There are just as many, if not more Longhorn fans than Redskin fans around the country and the world. UT football transcends the massive state and consumes both of its Top 10 media markets. There are Spanish Language broadcasts of Texas games throughout Mexico. Royal Texas Memorial stadium seats well over 100,000 rabid fans. This August, a new ESPN network will kick off – The Longhorn Network. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week—nothing but University of Texas sports, and the cornerstone of the programming is football.
    Vince knows pressure. Vince thrives under extreme pressure and even bigger expectations. He just needs a team that isn’t at war with itself, and which puts winning over ego. If that exists in Washington, and I hope it does, every Redskins fan should look forward with great anticipation and enthusiasm to the day Vince Young signs on the dotted line.

    http://burgundyblog.com/post/5367586151/vince
     
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  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Biased article. He lost his credibility by insinuating VY as one of the best the oilers franchise has had. VY couldn't carry W Moon's jock strap. If VY was a perfect citizen, he would not have been on the bench. Glossing over the incidents and spinning them positive still doesn't make me want him as our starter.
     
  3. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Just curious where is the evidence that Fisher purposely sabotaged Young? And especially with regards to the suicide issue.

    I'd like to see it. Fisher, from what I understand is a very respected coach - not someone you see associated with this type of stuff.

    The pressure at UT is a bit of a reach as well, that program does everything it can to shield its players from pressure and negative stuff associated with them. Roy Williams for instance didn't understand why he was booed when he underperformed, or why someone who was clearly outplaying him; Miles Austin was considered the #1 over himself.

    Texas coddles their athletes very well.
     
  4. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm sorry, but this makes Young out to be a victim basically with regards to everything. Not buying it.
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    How many quarterbacks are perfect citizens
     
  6. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I don't know how you would prove spin? But I like the idea of Young way better than Orton, Palmer, blah, blah...
     
  7. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Next, he will paint mike Vick as a victim, bullied by his mean doggies
     
  8. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    I'd like to hear something that backs up this story. I have a hard time believing that Fisher could have manipulated the perception of Young so completely. It makes Fisher out to be some sort of evil genius.

    I need more than 1 story to make me believe this.

    CK do you know anything or have any insight into this "story"?
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Funny thing is, finagin posted a link to a similar article about Young a couple of months ago.

    Way I see it, new team, clean slate, Marshall did not catch any flak for the things in Denver while he has been in Miami (save for Alex Marvez trying to stir it up) so Young would have the same courtesy imo.
     
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  10. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    NFL players will always stick up for their teammates if they feel they are being wronged, even TO got support whenever he acted like an ***, if VY was so wronged as the writer says, are they any former Titan teammates to back this version?
     
  11. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Of all the QBs available Young makes the most sense. Being mobile he adds a dimension none of the others do. Given a new OC and and a number of new starters on the offense a running QB that can turn losses into positive gains is a major plus during transition. Besides Young has been solid when starting over the past 2 years. Worth the chance. No harm in bringing him in to compete with Henne.
     
  12. finagain

    finagain New Member

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    Ya I posted this same article a while back. Been trying to say this for a while now.

    Whether Fisher "intentionally sabotaged" Vince or not, the point is that Vince was fighting an uphill battle his entire time in TN. For whatever reason, Fisher never liked/trusted VY (it started with the pick itself - Fisher wanted fellow Trojan Leinart - as written in the article). That means that any time there was a non-obvious decision to be made, he never made the decision to help his "franchise qb". Those little things (which are pure facts) like benchings, not adding any playmakers etc tell the whole story, and stuff like the suicide deal are just extra speculation to throw on the fire. In other words, just ignore the suicide thing (bc honestly no one even knows what happened, or if it happened at all), and look at the evidence.

    The article might make some presumptions, but the main point rings true: Vince never had the support he or any other top-5 pick should or usually gets.
     
  13. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Is the same Titans team that traded for Randy Moss, drafted Kenny Britt, got rid of that malcontent Haynesworth and such? The same one that drafted Chris Johnson, and tried to add that speed back from Arizona the year before with a 2nd rounder? The one that brought in Vanden Bosch etc? The one that kept Cortland Finnegan around, as he's an extremely talented CB - one that is widely known to be a pain in the ***? That same team? The one who never tried to add playmakers or that didn't do well with odd personalities?
     
  14. finagain

    finagain New Member

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    Oh, and another thing, everyone always thought Vince was a 2-3 year development "project" coming into the draft (unlike Leinart and Cutler), but was the highest qb pick because of the upside in that development. Yet, after precisely 2 years (1 ROY and then one playoff birth), he was booed off the field and benched for the next 1.5 years. Not coincidentally, he came back from that time drastically better than before (taking an 0-6 team to 8-8). In fact, as Padre has mentioned several times, his performance has shown a clear upward trend, and a fairly sharp one at that.

    So not only did Vince fail to receive the normal support for a top pick, but he was exactly the type of QB that needed patience/support to develop up to his full potential. Instead, he got neither.

    I've always said that the one catch to signing VY is that he must be placed into a supportive environment. I'm not saying he needs to be babied at all, but he needs a team and fans that have his back and will trust him to do his thing.
     
  15. finagain

    finagain New Member

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    What do the defensive players have to do with anything? I'm talking about offensive support. Of course they're not gonna throw away their draft picks (Finnegan was a 7th rounder i believe, and he's pretty good but not great). Until this last year, his best WR was Justin Gage (a #3 receiver on most teams) and his RB the first 2 years was Lendale White.. Britt was drafted with Collins as starter and Vince on the outs at the time. Randy Moss was a total non-factor in only 1/2 of a season (he barely even got on the field for some reason). The Arizona guy was a total bust, got like 12 carries in his career. CJ was a good one, yes, but again Vince had him for about a year of games.

    And while i never said a thing about odd personalities..

    1. Haynesworth left as a FA bc Washington offered him the farm. While in TN he was busy stomping on heads..
    2. Pacman Jones. Enough said.
    3. Lendale White. Uncontrollable. Eventually left.
    4. Kenny Britt. Been following the news lately? One of the top talents on the team, yet people are still questioning how long they'll keep him.
    5. Finnegan. More feisty than a headcase but still worthy of the list, especially after the fight with A Johnson this year. And he's a pain in the *** for other teams/refs, not his own team (other than the penalties).
    Add in "nasty splits" with Kearse, McNair, and Keith Bulluck (3 of the greatest Titans ever) and you've got a breeding ground for "mental issues" even before Vince enters the fold, so I'm not sure "doing well with odd personalities" fits the situation here.

    TN also has been one of the most penalized teams in the league the last few years, both overall and in personal fouls.
     
  16. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I just find it odd that a coach who doesn't have issues with other odd personalities, found some with Young. Fisher has long been regarded as a players' coach. Also I do find it a bit much to blend the organization and Fisher together as one entity. They aren't the same.

    I mentioned defensive guys as well, as they do tend to make plays as well. The team had play makers and certainly tried to get them in place over the years, so to say that Fisher or the team itself never put playmakers around Young is a reach. The Titans tried to put playmakers around Young, both through FA and the draft. And since teams need both sides of the ball to have talent and playmnakers, I thought it prudent to mention.

    Personalities was brought up as the article you posted defended the personality of a player in question - didn't it, and don't you tow the same line, that Vince was a victim of a vendetta?

    So there were nasty splits with players? A team and players have nasty splits? So Fisher personally banned McNair from the facility? Or was it the organization? Why would the owner step in for Young, who by all accounts was never the Titans Steve McNair was, yet never step in to allow McNair to be handled better? Or Bullock? Young isn't of the greatest Titans ever but gets this saving grace from the owner yet these other players are apparently stepped on without so much as a flinch from above? I think that trends towards the organization making those decisions, not just a coach hell bent on ****ing over players. Wasn't Floyd Reese around when McNair went to Baltimore?

    Its more viable that Young, while talented had issues that lead to his departure, not some vendetta by a coach who up until this year was the longest tenured coach in recent memory - who is respected and considered a players coach. Young is not a victim of some scheme by a Head Coach hell bent on screwing himself.
     
  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not quite so Conu, I looked into "Fisher was a players coach" and what struck me is Fish had one feud a season with an important player, Pacman, McNair, Kearse, White, seems like Kevin Dyson and fisher feuded as well.

    And I don't buy the "Young was a victim of Fish's dislike.." I suspect that is how Fisher tried to motivate guys, every yr he hit the biggest guy in the room so to speak.
     
  18. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Thats 5 players Padre. Fisher was there a long time. Fisher isn't some guy who just ****s people over. If you'd have said Bill Parcells, thats a different story - he did find guys to **** with - Hugh Douglas with the Jets, Taylor here etc.

    Hell Steve Mariucci had issues with players as well, and he's a nice guy as well. Cam Cameron fueded with veterans here, and we know what he's like, he used to monitor message boards.
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not something I paid a whole lot of attention to conu, I went back to around the time Young was drafted and it just sort of struck me that 1 player, every yr, there was some sort of huge beef with Fisher.

    Kearse left the stadium as well for example.
     
  20. Rdrunn004

    Rdrunn004 Active Member

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    Out of all the QBs in the market, I believe Young would be the best QB to bring in to compete with Henne. I believe Henne is in the position Young was in at Tenn in regards to little support from the coaching staff regarding his capabilities to play the position. I am certainly not expecting Young to help Henne deal with those emotions, but perhaps they could relate to each other to a certain extent and push each other to improve.
     
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  21. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think Henne's play had a good deal to do with how the coaching staff regarded his ability to play the position. Henne left quite a few throws on the field last year.
     
  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    "..put some things on film that are not pretty.."

    Sparano said something along those lines anyway.
     
  23. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Thats why I love sitting in the first row, upper deck in the end zone, I can see it all. Henne left 4-5 throws easily on the field against Pittsburgh, that were there for the taking. He just had to make the throw, but he didn't.
     
  24. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And we lost by how much in that one?

    #Respect for GMJ's stout defense and optimism for Chad Henne, but there are reasons why guys are down on him.
     
  25. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Honestly, I'd prefer Vince Young out of all of the available options.

    Change of scenery wouldn't hurt. And he presents an element of danger which the others don't. Guy just wins and has shown the ability to make plays with his arm and legs.
     

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