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A serious decussion about Pat White in the NFL

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LikeUntoGod, Sep 24, 2009.

  1. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    What do you call a bust? If you look where he was drafted at at the position he was drafted at he is going to be a bust. I have little doubt about it. I've never had any doubt about it. If you can show me a stat or any proof that he has a college game that can be brought into the NFL then please show me. (with facts my mind/thoughts can be changed)

    I'm not in the least impressed with his college game.

    He has never passed for over 2,000 yards in college.

    His completion percentage is not high for college.

    His yards per pass attempt is not high for college.

    He does not have a strong arm.

    He played in a spread option college system.

    He is not only short but small for a QB and/or a NFL player at any position.

    His chances of being a pure passing QB is small.

    His chances of being a Wildcat "QB" is even smaller. A Wildcat "QB" has to be able to run the football between the tackles. Pat White will never be able to do that.

    I use the ESPN stats. I look under "stats" then "passing" and also under "teams" and "stats".

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/pla yer/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt/year/2 008

    I see no reason at all that he can play in the NFL. Please back up any different argument you have with some facts and not just your feelings.

    Thanks so much.
     
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  2. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    Before I actually think about this and post: Pat White does have a strong arm.

    Continual Edit:

    Higher than Chad Henne's in each of their sophomore, junior, and senior years.

    Higher than Chad Henne's in each of their freshman, sophomore, and junior years. Only 0.2 YPA lower in their senior years.
     
  3. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    I think the question Will Pat White be a good Wildcat QB?
    I fully believe now we wasted a 2nd rounder. He isn't quick or fast enough to be a impact player in the Wildcat. Its not like he has the body type of a Runningback he wont be able to take shots.

    He could end up being a decent backup but to give up a second rounder :pity:
     
  4. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Compared to who? Chad Pennington?

    Is that your opinion or do you have any proof?

    And before you use one of his highlights, please remember the John Beck YouTube video that had Dolphin convinced that he had a strong arm because he threw a prayer after taking 4 running steps forward.
     
  5. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    i won't bash PW yet ... he has a long way to go to be sure, and the staff is intent on working him in slowly ... unfortunately for him, i don't think we will really see anything until next year. by the end of next TC we will know if he was a mistake or not.

    now, if you want to debate whether he was a mistake at 2a ... then that is a fair argument - and most would likely agree that he was. conversely, this FO does a good job in their evaluations of players and their potential.

    i think PW is just overwhelmed at this point ... most especially since he has probably never played in a pro-style offense, and has much to learn for a guy that has basically played sandlot for his whole career. i think if you look at where he is now, and come back and compare where he is at the end of the season, there will be a marked improvement ... unfortunately, he isn't helping us win games right now.
     
  6. Uncle Rico

    Uncle Rico New Member

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    Geez, go stroke his bicep, there's your proof.

    This whole thread is you baiting people into a pointless argument. You want people to look up stats and post youtube videos to change your mind about a player, is that the point of the thread? Please save it for the other site.
     
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  7. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    He compared White to Chad Henne and said so in his post plus backed it up with the very stats you requested. Whats the problem? Why bring JB into it, he's history.:lol:

    Want more proof our FO drafted him and call him a QB. That stat is good enough for me at this time.:up:
     
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  8. huck1974

    huck1974 FU Gene Steratore

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    Arm looked pretty strong when he wayyyyyy overthrew Ginn. I think we will get good use out of him. Its just going to take some time for his brain to slow down.
     
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  9. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Wasn't really in favor of the pick, drafting situational players that high is for teams that are already loaded with talent. It's a luxury pick, when we don't have the luxury......

    Having said that......if you don't think this kid has talent then you didn't follow much of his career. He is electrifying in the open field. In space he's potentially the most dangerous player on this team.

    It's up to the Miami Dolphins to make use of him......if I have any disappointment so far, it's that I see them wasting his talent by not trying to use him in an all purpose manner.

    Those highlight reels you spoke of? Go watch some of them and tell me why he isn't out there returning kicks and punts when we have basically no one that can step forward in that role?

    Watch him in the open field and tell me why he's out there handing the ball off instead of being sent out for a pass or used on a reverse?

    If this pick fails, it won't be because of a lack of talent
     
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  10. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    He is to small to be an effective nfl QB.
     
  11. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    or atleast save it for the other thread you started that bashes pat white.seriously? we need five threads of you bashing white with no real arguments?

    you dont like his college carreer? 4 yr starter,four yr bowl champion..thats pretty impressive to me even if only the fact that no other college qb has done that.

    he only threw for 1800 yrds his senior season but every yr he got better.he only threw 800 yrs his freshman yr so he was much improved from start to finish and thats with recievers alot of us never even heard of in as you called it a spread option offense..he was also running for a good amount of yards(i'll take 200 yrds passing if he also runs for 100 per game).

    save the he's too small talk for guys like zach thomas and wes welker.

    doesnt have a strong arm? i watched him overthrow ted ginn without taking four steps so it's strong enough for me.

    it's a good thing our coaching staff didn't pick him up to only be a passing qb.we picked him because he is a playmaker and that is something we lack enough of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  12. Uncle Rico

    Uncle Rico New Member

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    Pat White, 6 ft, 190 lbs

    Drew Brees, 6 ft, 209 lbs

    I guess Pat White is a couple cheeseburgers away...
     
  13. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    That's been my ***** all along. No way we should've used that pick on him. Way too high/early. We had/have other more glaring needs IMHO.

    As to whether or not he's a bust, it's way too early to talking about that IMO. Only time will tell. But, if I had to predict, I'd say yeah...he probably won't make the transition to the NFL. Not as a conventional QB at any rate.
     
  14. Hexonx

    Hexonx Active Member

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    Glad we figured out he was a bust after 6 snaps in the NFL. I think people are way too quick to judge sometimes.
     
  15. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    i agree. i wasn't fond of where he was picked either but can't label him a bust yet when he has only attempted one pass in a reg season game. thats one thing that confuses me about the playcalling of late.we drafted this guy due to his abilitly to pass the ball effectively in the spread/wildcat yet we are sending in plays that call for ted ginn to pass it? why pick him if all your gonna do is have him hand the ball off and have your reciever throwing.you dont pick a punter and have him line up as a mlb just because he's not good at mlb..you pick the punter and use him as a punter.
     
  16. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    You don't overthrow Ginn by 10-15 yards unless you have a strong arm. Period. Also the throw was right on target....just a little too far :lol:
     
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  17. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    Was working on finding more stuff that you might consider proof, which I said in my post, but the site went down.


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMAF_ktK2e8"]YouTube - Pat White Drafted by the Miami Dolphins[/ame]

    Mike Mayock quotes:

    “He has as live an arm as anybody you wanna see”
    “Has a big arm”
    “Pat white’s got a bigger arm than people wanna give him credit for”
    “Tremendous accuracy and strength”

    He's also second in completion percentage in WVU history by completing 64.6% of his passes.

    People forget that Pat White is a developmental prospect, but also a playmaker, which is why we're trying to get the ball in his hands. Just give him some time, I'm sure he'll make some plays for us this year if we keep trying.
     
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  18. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    The obvious guess is Pat White was brought in to run the spread offense ( that is a pretty generic term now, but think Florida with the Zone Read Option play).

    If you watch the Colts game again, you can see the Dolphins run that play with Pat White in the shotgun with RB and RW next to him in the backfield, if my memory servers me right. Pat White reads the DE and hands the ball to RB and RB takes the ball up the gut ( notice you don't have to run up the middle to be a spread QB, like you suggest you have to in the wildcat ). That play got blown up because the Colts ran a LB blitz and the O line failed to pick it up. So the play was for little to no gain.

    I can definitely see why some are against the pick.

    Overall though, the Front Office has made great decisions so if they get this one wrong, every FO gets it wrong from time to time, I am okay with that. Because they get the majority of the picks correct, unlike the previous string of FO/GM failures we have had in the recent past. So I can relax and enjoy the ride because I trust who is driving the cart/shopping for the groceries so to speak. :lol:
     
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  19. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    How long did it take to figure out that Jason Allen was not going to make it?

    IMO, Pat White would be better used as the QB in the "Fullhouse" formation which we ran very well last week and during the preseason.

    Think of it as a reverse Wishbone using 3 running backs.

    Normally there is not a QB running option but I can see it happening or on a Play Action roll out.
     
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  20. SCall13

    SCall13 ThePhins QB


    Totally agree. A waste of a 2nd rounder.
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You say he does not have a strong arm. Is this your opinion or do you have any proof?
     
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  22. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    My Masters is in Political Science and I love debating and I really feel that if you prove to be that I am wrong, you can change my mind.

    On another Dolphin Fan site I've been debating the merits of Pat White. After I mentioned that he could be a good QB running the Fullhouse formation, I was given this reply:

    "That works. He can also be a passing quarterback out of a shotgun set like he's been throughout his college career. I also think he didn't look to bad taking snaps under center in the pre-season but some, like yourself, may disagree with me."

    This gentleman was honest and told me that he had not been watching football for a long time (I really respected him saying that). He is a solid Dolphin fan and does not stoop to name calling but carefully lays out the points he is making. I like this guy and I'm not trying to razz him at all and he did make me think. Maybe I should check all the facts.

    However he does feel strongly that I am wrong about Pat White and among other interesting arguments told me to check out four games of his.

    2007: Louisville and Cincinnati.
    2008: U of South Florida and North Carolina in the "Bank of America Bowl".

    So as to the Pat White running the shotgun etc I had this reply:

    If we did not have Chad Henne I would agree. But we do have Chad Henne who is not a rookie and has a stronger arm and is a better passing QB. And he did not look good taking snaps from center so this seems like the wrong time for him to be learning.

    Oddly, no one has a problem with Pat White coming in for 4 plays and passing on one, but Chad Henne coming in on 3rd down to run one of a couple of preplanned shotgun plays is all wrong. A bad game for me being a Gator fan but I still have a copy of Chad Henne throwing for 373 yards on the Gators two years ago in a 41-35 win. Not the USF, but the U of Fla.

    I will be honest, I never watched Pat White in college because I saw no reason for it. Chase Daniel and Dennis Dixon seemed like better run/pass spread option QBs but who cares since we would never draft one of them.

    I could be very wrong about him, maybe he did have these great games I was told about. Just what teams does West Virginia play being in the Big East?

    Just for the heck of it I decided to see how well Pat White did last year in their Bowl Game or his other good games. The way the ESPN.com site I use works is I went to "college football", "scores", "2008" and this being the 4th week the page that came up (sorting by top 25 teams) had in the top left hand corner, West Virginia vs Colorado. Which (and I did not know this) West Virginia lost, 14-17.

    Pat White was 10-14 for 31 yards for a 3.1 yards per completion(yards per pass attempt would be even lower).

    Now they did run the ball well but still lost.

    West Virginia Rushing
    CARYDSAVGTDLG
    P. White191487.8244
    N. Devine261335.1019
    J. Sanders7304.3012
    Team523116.0244

    After this I had to go by "Big East" teams to find them for a while. I wondered what other national power houses did they play.


    They best Villanova
    They lose to East Carolina (Pat White, 11 for 18 for 72 yards)
    They beat Marshall.
    They beat Rutgers
    They beat Syracuse
    They beat Auburn
    They beat Connecticut
    They lost to Cincinnati (in OT)
    They beat Louisville
    They lost to Pittsburgh
    They "sneak past" South Florida (so the story says) Pat White was 14 for 23 for 141 yards (is this the big game you mentioned)
    And then Pat White finally throws for over 220 yards in a game(332) in a win over North Carolina 31-30 in the "Bank of America Bowl"..........


    My eyes have been opened. I have to admit that I was totally wrong about Pat White and I've been giving him way too much credit.

    2007:

    West Virginia's game against Louisville was a 31-30 loss. Pat White was 16 out of 25 for 181 yards and two touchdowns. Brian Brohm was 27 out of 46 for 345 yards.

    West Virginia's game against Cincinnati was a 28-23 win. Pat White was 13 out of 19 for 140 yards and one interception.

    Maybe we just have a misunderstanding of what a "big game" is.

    But now I really really do not understand this pick. If Pat White was 6'1" and 230 pounds and could run between the tackles he might be a "Wildcat QB". As is, he is a WR who can take a snap from center or go into motion and throw the ball off a reverse.

    Bill Parchells has always had a smaller draft board then most GMs/Coaches. he does not care how well you did in college, he cares how well you will do in the NFL. He plays the odds. He almost never ever drafts a player under a certain size for certain positions.

    No 6'1" OLBs or 6'2" defensive lineman. No small WRs or a offensive lineman under 6'4" 310 pounds. He looks carefully at height and weight and almost never drafts anyone under the sizes he thinks a player must be to play in the NFL.

    He would have never drafted Zack Thomas. Or anyone that Cam Cameron did.

    This is why I still strongly feel that Pat White was not his pick.
    "A journey of a thousand miles starts with my boot being kicked up your fat azz if you do not start moving" Bill Parcell's version of Chairman Mao's famous quote
     
  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So how can you have a rational opinion on his abilities as a player? IMO, you cannot and any hope for a meaningful debate begins and ends right there.

    Oh, you have statistics, you say?

    Like Mark Twain, among others, said, "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
     
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  24. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    My Masters is in Political Science and I love debating and I really feel that if you prove to be that I am wrong, you can change my mind.

    Dude, "prove to be that I am wrong"?...Master's huh...I'm not even sure "Bill Parchells" would have a shot...
     
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  25. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Decussion, really? Now you're just baiting me out of spite...

    BTW- Do you know where I can get one? I've got a feeling I'm gonna need one.:chuckle:
     
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  26. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    well, he told a reporter in January that he would be our pick.. seems to me that's pretty good evidence that you feel strongly wrong.
     
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  27. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    I never said I could spell, LOL. If if that is your only argument that I'm wrong then I have no problem. My point was that Pat White never played well as a passing QB against a regular schedule of lesser college teams.

    Like most fans I've never seen a number of players we drafted ever play in college. I never saw Chris Clemons play but I believed when he was drafted he would be starting for us at mid season. I only saw Vontae Davis play twice and Sean Smith two times but I believe that they will starters. I never saw Cameron Wake play.

    I've seen Pat White's highlights and was not impressed, almost all of them were runs that will not happen in the NFL.

    I, like most fans also go off what "experts" tell me, the reporter's notes at OTA's and training camp and watching him play. The things that stood out about Pat White is so far his problems in adjusting to taking the snap from center to pass and that he has maybe set a new record in "yards off of his targets" when he wildly missed some of his passes. That and the fact that he has not and might never ever play more then 5-6 plays in a NFL game unless we lose both other QBs.

    I'm a 30 year Dolphin fan but I'm not a total stooge of all decisions made. I simply cannot believe that a short, small, running QB who has never passed for over 1,844 yards in a season is going to be a starter at QB in the NFL.

    And the normal very closed mouthed Parcells is telling who are draft picks are? That one does not bode well for him or us.
     
  28. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just try and give him more time. That's all we ask for. You never know what he can do until you give him the chance to do it.
     
  29. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    I have no problem with giving him time, but I do not think time will help him.

    My premise is that the NFL is now a passing game. So a QB drafted for a NFL should be a excellent passer. He should have some sort of record as a good passer with a good vertical game.

    If he is drafted in the 2nd round it should be better then good.

    Pat White has never thrown for over 1.844 yards in a season. He had a number of games where he held under 75 yards passing.

    When is the last time a QB made it in the NFL who has never thrown for over 2,000 yards in a season?

    Can anyone link a couple of videos that show him completing 40-50 yard passes though coverages? Or threading 25-30 yard ones though defenders?

    So far no one has shown me one reason that he can be a starting NFL QB.

    (nothing personal)
     
  30. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    brother, he will not ever be a starting QB, not even in MIA ...

    he was brought in for a specific purpose .... unfortunately, he can not perform that function adequately at this point ... i do believe that we will see improvement by the end of the season ... albeit, it's tough to watch right now ...
     
  31. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was brought in to be the WC QB, not the Starting QB. Give him time to get the plays down, and let the game slow down for him. Then you will see( Hopefully) why he was drafted.
     
  32. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you wait until he throws more than 1 pass in the NFL?

    Come back and see how much weight your "theory" holds in about 2 years or so...
     
  33. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    It's kind of nonsense to say Pat White doesn't have a strong arm. We've all seen the overthrow of the ball to Ginn. (Personally I think maybe Ginn just wussied out.) You can't fire a ball like downfield without an arm. Also all offseason in rookie camp and training camp the knock on Pat White was that he was overthrowing his receivers. It was mentioned several times during training camp. Pat White has a cannon of an arm.

    I wasn't originally a big fan of the Pat White pick. And I've said before and I'll say it again. The Pat White Pick Will Not Pay Off This Year. This Is All About Next Year/B] Assuming we don't resign Pennington next year we'll have Henne start. And Henne will have reight behind him a young, talented backup drafted with a high draft pick and with a year's worth of experience in the system. Don't be surprised if next year we have an open tryout for the QB spot and Pat White wins it if Henne struggles. His only problem I see right now is settling down and not overthrowing his receivers. But he has the arm and the big game experience to become a solid QB for us I think.

    Honestly what's the worst that happens? We start the 2010-2011 season with Pat White an experienced backup? I can deal with that.
     
  34. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Download the WVU vs UNC bowl game last year ( torrent ), I did, you will see him make some of those passes.

    I think it was his career game in terms of passing, so this wasn't his normal everyday game, but still some impressive throws.

    I think the FO took a gamble, I am personally, fine with it.


    Youtube highlights:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_kWMQ70YQ8"]YouTube - WVU vs. UNC Car Care bowl[/ame]

    You should watch the entire game though

    EDIT: But this is youtube highlights, and you don't count youtube highlights...
     
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  35. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    (What I'm really hoping is that Pat White has so many yards running and passing today along with maybe a big play or two that he totally shuts me up)
     
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  36. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    And I did realize the softball I pitched up there, LOL.

    I'm a Gator Grad and a Fan but I'd be as hard on any ex-Gator because I'm a Dolphin fan first!


    "A journey of a thousand miles starts with my boot being kicked up your fat azz if you do not start moving" Bill Parcell's version of Chairman Mao's famous quote
     

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