1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

2022 Best Case Scenario for Tua

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jan 25, 2022.

  1. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,895
    4,742
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    McKinnon was getting 8 yards every carry it seemed. Don't know why the abandoned the run.
     
    Dolfanalyst likes this.
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,538
    33,037
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    The second half execution was baffling. Both on players and coaches.

    Also, the Bengals did a great job of making 2nd half adjustments. IMO, their defense is not getting enough credit for their Superbowl apperance.
     
    mlb1399 and Dolfanalyst like this.
  3. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

    131
    92
    28
    Jan 14, 2022
    There was a social media meme going around after that game that said the NFL was going to cancel the rest of the playoffs and just have KC and Buffalo play a seven-game series. :chuckle:
     
  4. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

    131
    92
    28
    Jan 14, 2022
    The big difference was the absence of targets for Tyreek Hill. In the first half he had 10 targets and 78 yards receiving. In the second half and OT not a single target other than the INT in overtime. I suspect the Bengals made a Bill Belichick-like adjustment of playing to take away Hill and make the Chiefs beat them with other players. Consequently Mahomes was sacked four times and threw two picks during that part of the game. Two of those sacks increased Cincinnati's win probability by ~10% apiece.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  5. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,499
    1,262
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Mahomes played bad. Not something you normally say but its true.
     
    mlb1399 likes this.
  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

    3,893
    3,087
    113
    Mar 6, 2010
    Someone else said it but you also have to give credit to Cincys defense in the playoffs. They’re giving up less than 20 points per game. How much of that was on Mahomes not playing to his level vs Cincy putting him in that situation can be debated. But like most things, there’s some truth to both.
     
    resnor likes this.
  7. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,894
    3,925
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
     
  8. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Early word is that McDaniel is positive on Tua and eager to get to work with him.

    Now, assuming that's genuine (and I hope it is), that's great news. x's and O's aside, after all the ups and down of Tua's first years - start him, sit him, the coaches believes in him, doesn't believe in him - it's going to be good for Tua to have an enthusiastic coach behind him. Of course, it can't be measured by any metrics, but there's no way that having difference OC's every year, and worse an alleged lack of support from the HC who (one assumes) had a hand in drafting you. Whatever sort of QB Tua is or proves to be, I'll be glad for him to get some genuine support in becoming it. It'll be best for Tua, best for the 2022 Dolphins and the right move for McDaniel right off the bat.
     
    Unlucky 13 and Phil Hutchings like this.
  9. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

    131
    92
    28
    Jan 14, 2022
    The problem with that is that I don't think it's necessarily dispositive of Tua's ability. McDaniel didn't get any other job interviews, and I'm sure it's clear to even the casual observer that an interviewee for the Dolphins job needed to indicate a willingness to work with Tua to get the job. On top of that, it's probably clear to McDaniel that he can work with Tua for a year and then indicate he's soured on him (if indeed that's the case), and the team will then attempt to get a QB more to his liking. They aren't going to fire McDaniel after a year if he simply indicates he needs a better QB to win -- they're going to move on from Tua at that point.

    What I wouldn't do if I were McDaniel is construct a team around maximizing Tua's performance if it isn't consistent with the kind of team functioning he believes is most competitive in the NFL. An unproven QB shouldn't dictate a team's personnel moves entirely -- what's most competitive in the league should dictate that.
     
    resnor, Sceeto, hitman8 and 1 other person like this.
  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    All of which has nothing to do with the point.

    It will be good for Tua to have a coach who believe in him. Maybe he doesn't, maybe it's all smoke just to get the job, but maybe he does. Time will tell. But it would be best for Tua to have a coach who believes in him.

    And this narrative about building around a QB vs building a competitive team is a false dichotomy. Building a team, and an offense, that wins is the only thing that matters. Building for some theoretical team and ignoring the QB you have has to assume you're going to have some theoretical QB in the future, who may or may not be what you theorise. Then building for a QB you have but not building an effective overall team is just bizarre. I think there's some serious tunnel vision here.

    If McDaniel is going to succeed he's going to need to establish a winning team along his vision while also maximising the pieces he has. It's both/and, not either or.
     
    Phil Hutchings and dolphin25 like this.
  11. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

    131
    92
    28
    Jan 14, 2022
    It's a true dichotomy, as such decisions involve mutually exclusive allocations of team resources. If you believe for example you need the best offensive line and run game in the league for your QB to perform sufficiently, you then may attempt to assemble such an offensive line and run game. That allocation of resources may make it impossible to play defense well enough to win a Super Bowl for example, as the team has too many resources in the offensive line and run game to permit it to play sufficient defense.

    In other words, a QB can be a limiting factor for a team's performance. If the QB's ceiling isn't high enough -- and we don't know Tua's ceiling at present -- then pouring resources into maximizing his performance could very well be too great a ball and chain on the team overall.

    My point is only that McDaniel certainly shouldn't be functioning with regard to personnel decisions as though Tua is a known commodity who has proven he can play at the sufficient level given the requisite surrounding talent. It's entirely possible that gearing personnel decisions around Tua's functioning could in fact undermine the team.
     
    Sceeto and dolphin25 like this.
  12. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

    6,412
    2,436
    113
    Nov 22, 2014
    I heard or read somewhere that Miami lost 3-4 games by 3 points or less where the FG kicker missed a FG.
     
    mlb1399 likes this.
  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    You're operating from only a theoretical perspective. Tua remains an unknown, but so too will any theoretical replacement. There's no way to know what comes next. Personnel decisions will always have to be made. McDaniel will need to make the best decisions he can make and that's the tough job of a HC and GM. A good decision-maker will weigh the balance. In a sense, it's a truism, if McDaniel is a good decision maker he'll make good decisions.

    Maybe Tua isn't the guy, he'll need to see that. He'll also need to see where the team stands everywhere else, and the reality is, this team has legitimate needs all over the offense. Whatever moves he makes this year he's unlikely to go overboard in any area. WRs, RBs, OL, all could see significant improvement. So for the sake of 2022 it's hard to see how McDaniel could build for Tua in a way that wouldn't be building for the team as a whole.

    Getting back to the point of my comment and this thread, what will be good for Tua is to have a coach who believes in him and helps to bring the best out of him - both taking into account that which he does well, and helping him to adapt to the style and system McDaniel wants to implement. That was my point.
     
    Phil Hutchings likes this.
  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,079
    2,553
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. Grier and Ross were looking for a yes man who was willing to work with Tua, so it's no surprise McDaniel is saying he wants to work with Tua. However, if working with Tua means we have to implement a system only for him, then it will set us back.

    It was my fear regarding the whole HC search process as well. Did we actually go out there and get the best HC available, or were we just looking for the best coach for Tua? Unfortunately the evidence suggests we did the latter.
     
    resnor, Hooligan and Sceeto like this.
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Woah, that's CRAZY! No way you'd look at that stat and guess that the Bengals won. But in context, it does show how incredible Burrow has been this season.
     
    resnor likes this.
  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    New coach or not, the path forward for Tua is exactly the same. You can't ask the kid to get the ball out any quicker, so we either need better protection to allow plays to develop, or we need receivers to get open faster. Scheme can help to some extent but at the end of the day, we need better positional players on offense.

    Let's try this from a different approach. From best to worst, rank the starting 11 players on offense. Here's what I would say:

    1. Waddle
    2. Tua
    3. Parker
    4. Gisecki/Smythe (TE's for different sets)
    5. Johnson/Gaskin (or the RB room as a whole)
    6. Dieter
    7. Hunt
    8. Davis
    9. Eichenberg
    10. Fuller (due to availability)
    11. Jackson

    Am I wrong here? Should we swap Tua & Parker? Or move Tua below Parker & Gisecki? This topic is about how Tua can improve but it's ignoring the other 10 starters. Tua's ceiling is directly related to everyone else's.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
    Phil Hutchings likes this.
  17. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    You don't know any of this for certain. Maybe they were, but I doubt that. There's no evidence that "we did the latter". McDaniel deserves a shot just as much as anyone else. And the idea that this year, in 2022, we can do things for Tua that won't be good for the team overall is nonsense. Just about anything we do that's good for Tua will also be good for the rest of the team. If you disagree then tell me what, this year, we can do for Tua that will be bad for the team.

    I get that this has been a horrible experience for us as fans for years and that Ross' record doesn't bode well for the future, nevertheless, we can at least try to stay grounded and objective. For example, on the one hand we want to see a HC that can see the talent he has and work with it to play to their talents, rather than ignoring it and having people play out of place or in some less than efficient fashion. On the other hand, we want a coach with vision to bring change and come up with a system that works in today's NFL. We have to maintain the balance of both - just like McDaniel will also have to do. He'll need to look at what we have this year, figure out his vision, bring in picks and Free Agents to build towards that, try to always develop synergy across the team, train them up, and compete. That's the reality. For this Miami team, more than the players for one year, it'll be the coaches McDaniel brings in that will matter most. And the hope is that McDaniel, and his coaches, will be competent and bring the most out of the players we have and will have, by 2022. Tua included.
     
    Phil Hutchings likes this.
  18. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    I will see that we should have had Fuller this year and didn't. That hampered our offensive plans. As far as I can tell, apart from Waddle, or WR's were poor. The whole idea was to create more separation and then, I assume, get yard after the catch. We failed miserably. So I think we hope to see some major upgrades in the receiving corp.

    I think we see one or two upgrades on the OL but the biggest hope for that unit is some great coaching.

    We know McDaniel has a rep for a creative run game. That bodes well for a more balanced offensive with better discipline and performance.

    For the ranking I would say:

    1. Tua/Waddle
    2. Gesicki
    3. Hunt
    4. Smythe/Johnson
    5. Parker/Gaskin
    6. Dieter
    7. Davis
    8. Eichenberg
    9. Jackson

    Fuller left off because he was a scratch.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014


    That seriously has to get Tua pumped up.
    Humility. Vision. Hard work.

    That's how things get done.

    Maybe it's for show for us. Maybe he has his doubts but he's encouraging Tua anyway. Who knows. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt because this is one way to be a great leader. No man left behind. From other videos it's clear that McDaniel is no soft-touch, so I'm not worried about that.

    Let's hope Grier gives McDaniel what he wants and needs.
     
  20. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
     
    Phil Hutchings likes this.
  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    First of all, it's very cool that he shared that. If things go bad, we'll know exactly why with McDaniel and his communication style. So I'm pumped as well for that change in philosophies.

    But 2nd, I can't help but wonder if Tua actually said he wants McDaniel more than any other coach, LOL. Tua was laughing so I think McDaniel made that up on the spot. That makes me a little nervous if that was pre-planned.
     
  22. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Good spot. I think that was tongue-in-cheek from McDaniel. It would fit what we've seen of him in terms of sense of humour. Disarming way of handling things. Build rapport.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,675
    12,663
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Waddle is a clear #1 and then there's a huge gap. The rest are replaceable.

    We need an infusion of talent on offense, most importantly at QB and WR. We're stuck with Tua for now, unless we splurge on QB in FA. Assuming we don't, we should pay whatever is necessary to get a top WR in FA and use draft picks to improve RB and OL. Hopefully McDaniel is the first coach since Shula to give us a good offense. We'll see.
     
  24. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,549
    6,290
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    Even if they do decide to roll with Tua this year, which I think is a mistake, I think they absolutely have to bring in some kind of solid competition for him. It would be good for him. One of them could end up being a quality back up which the team usually ends up needing at some point anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
  25. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,549
    6,290
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    Tua is the team's second best offensive player? :beer:
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    That's why I asked you to make a ranking. Who is 2nd? 3rd? Personally, I don't see anyone to put above Tua except for Waddle.
     
  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,079
    2,553
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    I am willing to give McDaniel a chance, but I certainly don't think he was the best HC candidate available. Can you objectively tell me that McDaniel is better than Pederson or Harabugh, or Caldwell? No you can't, but those better coaches would not be willing to go along with whatever Grier and Ross want, and they might not be as willing to bend over backwards to accommodate Tua.

    As far as our strategy going forward, is implementing a quick RPO passing game to fit Tua, and tailoring our personnel to fit that scheme actually what's best for the team long term? Is RPO what wins Superbowls? Not in my opinion. If Tua ends up flopping and we manage to get a better prototypical QB with less limitations, then we will have to re-tool the offense and start all over, again.

    That's what I mean by not basing all our strategy around Tua, which is what is seemingly happening.
     
    resnor likes this.
  28. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    I can't objectively tell you anything about the coaches. This isn't Top Trumps, it isn't one size fits all. Maybe McDaniel flops maybe he's the next great Dolphins coach. I don't know and neither does anyone else. Nor does anyone know exactly why Ross snd Grier chose. Yet you seem pretty certain about it.

    You also seem pretty certain about Tua and that the best thing for him is some RPO game tooled in some specific way. You don't seem to allow for any other possibility. You're edited to your opinion but again, it's not certain, I for one am curious to see what other perspective McDaniel can bring. That said, even if it is RPOs for 2022 you haven't answered my question. In this next year what specific changes can he or Grier make that will benefit Tua but not the team as a whole going forward?

    I don't think there are any.
     
  29. Dolfanalyst

    Dolfanalyst Active Member

    131
    92
    28
    Jan 14, 2022
    The RPO can win Super Bowls if it functions to augment a team's run game by adding an option to pass the ball on a called run play, as a function of a pre-snap read of the opposing defensive formation. If on the other hand it functions with the intent of compensating for a QB's inadequacy in other areas of the passing game, then I doubt it.
     
  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,079
    2,553
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    When Tua is the second best player on your offense, you know your offense is garbage. Geez, has Grier ****ed up or what? Just looking at our lineup like that really puts into perspective what a terrible job he's done. Not one real impact player in the entire offense.
     
    resnor likes this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,448
    9,986
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That's our coach? LMFAO

    Maybe it's just me, but that video wasn't really encouraging.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  32. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

    13,549
    6,290
    113
    Oct 13, 2008
    New York
    True...and he isn't even the second best player on the offense.
     
    resnor and hitman8 like this.
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,469
    68,691
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I agree that grier needs to focus on the oline, protection is the key for Tua as it revealed itself that he csn get the right mustard on the ball if he can set his mechanics, if he can’t he loses all torque throughout his midsection for which is how he generates power..

    Protect this Qb and his left arm is accurate enough and quick enough in his release to cut up a defense.
     
    Phil Hutchings and resnor like this.
  34. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
     
  35. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
     
  36. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

    785
    429
    63
    Sep 16, 2018
    But doesn’t passing efficiency increase with a better OLine to protect the QB and give him more time to find his receivers?

    I don’t know much about McDaniel. Can he improve our current front five? or do we need to upgrade to "better" individuals?

    The first mock draft I saw - on the NFL App by Daniel Jeremiah - had us taking Daniel Faalele, an OT, who is 6' 9".
     
  37. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

    785
    429
    63
    Sep 16, 2018
    I’m sure Josh and his offensive coaches will have plenty of time to assess Tua (and the rest of the offense) between now and Week One of the regular season.
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,675
    12,663
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah, but what the stats we were talking about show is that the improvement doesn't affect win% anywhere near as much as improvement at the QB and WR position.
     
    Phil Hutchings likes this.
  39. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    1,499
    1,262
    113
    Dec 29, 2013
    Turns out an offensive line is important
     
    Phil Hutchings, hitman8 and KeyFin like this.
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,675
    12,663
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    This year yes. But on average not so much if you look at SB winners.
     

Share This Page