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2019 QB Race

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, May 2, 2019.

  1. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Two problems with this. How do you determine whether the offensive line is likely needing to gel or likely to improve at all? The second issue is, making your decision based on the offensive line and not how the starter is playing is recipe for disaster in the locker room and the fan base.
     
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  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    obviously the context on how Rosen is playing is also a factor. If he's balling in training camp, I put him out there regardless of the line. I just don't expect to see that.
     
  3. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Rosen was drafted with the 10th overall pick last season. We picked him up for this year's LATE second round and next years fifth round. I'd call that a steal.

    Developing a quarterback to start is not the same as sit and wait. Your post suggests that EVERY first round drafted quarterback instantly starts...and is a success.
     
  4. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    His post doesnt suggest that at all, I'm not sure how you took that from it.

    His post suggests that basing when Rosen starts off of the performance of other units is stupid. It is.

    QB's dont start immediately because they lack the understanding of professional football and the speed of the game. Neither issue applies to Rosen, and teams have done a lot of research into whether starting a QB immediately ruins them. Hint...it doesnt.

    If he wins the job he needs to start period.
     
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  5. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    If Rosen takes command of the offense (both guys are new to it, right?) and plays well in the preseason, then you have to consider giving him the start from game one. If the OL is a mess, I could see giving the vet QB the start for the first month or so.

    If the team has a winning record, even 2-2 actually, it would be awkward to try and put Rosen in to replace Fitz. The odds say that Fitz will be struggling though, and the way he showed up out of shape tells me he is just in Miami to collect another season of paychecks before retiring.
    He would make a decent #2 QB though, as he seems to play better off the bench.

    We have to KNOW if Rosen is the QB of the future before the end of 2019, so even with a bad OL you have to give him the majority of the starts.
     
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  6. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  7. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Starting a QB immediately won’t ruin a QB. Bad coaching can and will. My poster child example of this is Chad Henne who guy turned into “Check down Chad” by our coaching staff. As a college QB Henne aggressively attacked downfield but we coached that part of his game out of him. Just imagine how people would view Jared Goff if Jeff Fisher was still coaching the Rams.

    If you’re in a position to start a rookie QB you are more likely than not to have a poor coaching staff. There aren’t many situations for a Russel Wilson, a Ben Rothlisberger or a Dan Marino to be handed the keys to a well established well coached team as a rookie.
     
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  8. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, I should have said "QB's who dont start early"

    I meant the few that dont are generally incapable of doing so. I agree though.
     
  9. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Agreed. A high quality rookie QB should be better than a mediocre-average veteran. And if they show ability in practice then a team is probably better off in the long term starting them and let them get real time experience even if the results are a little inferior to a journeyman starter.

    The exceptions people point to, like Aaron Rodgers and Pat Mahomes almost always were sitting behind better than average QBs who had legitimate shots at taking their teams to the playoffs.
     
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  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  11. mbsinmisc

    mbsinmisc Season Ticket Holder

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    This is the single most important thing the Dolphins need to assess over the course of 2019. You can miss at other positions, but if Flores wants to stay an NFL head coach, he must find the right QB. I think we all agree it is not Fitzception, so give Rosen the opportunity to prove his mettle.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wouldn’t just throw Rosen in with the new system to learn, he’s shown clearly he’s not ready for the speed of the game, so learning a new system is not gonna help that process speed up..

    I would see where we’re at at the bye, and go from there..
     
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  13. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the decision on whom to start at QB needs to play out. Who looks the best in camp? If Fitz looks the best you play him. Allow Rosen's chip to grow if need be, but don't start a young QB who isn't ready. However, if Rosen beats out Fitz then he should start. It's that simple.
     
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  14. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    There is no value to playing Fitz period the more I think about it. The worst thing that can happen is Rosen isnt the guy and we win a few extra games.
     
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  15. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Rosen needs to learn all that he can from Fitz, what to do and what not to do. This will be the "honeymoon" for Flores so, why rush the kid into the game? It's going to be chaos in the trenches and on the sidelines until the team gels. Let the dust settle first and then evaluate the talent. No way Rosen is going to handle chaos better than Fitz.
     
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  16. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    See to me, it absolutely doesn't matter if he handles it better or worse.

    The first weeks are when you are least likely to see any complex defenses. The experience in those first weeks is more valuable than anything Fitz can do on the field.

    Winning an extra game or two would set us back way farther than losing.
     
  17. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    Fitz is not our future. Rosen might be?
    Let rosen play this year unless he starts sucking. Then we know we need to draft a new qb in 2020. It’s sink or swim time for rosen.
     
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  18. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Which is precisely why you don't start a guy who was blasted behind Arizona's line with it's next nearest competitor for inadequacy - our line!! He's already been slobber-knocked for the bulk of a season - why further ruin whatever competitive spirit he may have lurking around by throwing him to the lions to satisfy some patrons who are impatient, frustrated, and loud! Finding time to get him into the game - fine. Rebuild the line first to at least better than inadequate. See who can play upfront and do PassPro - that is the way to sustain winning seasons.. after everyone gets on the same page - and that ain't gonna happen fast or soon! Any one around here remember Rick Norton? David Woodley? John Stofa? A.J. Feeley? Sage Rosenfels? Gus Frerotte? Wanna see another QB wind up under a pile of defensive lineman coming out looking like a broken mannequin whose brain is playing 'Tubular Bells?'
     
  19. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, the least complex defenses are weeks 1-3 or 4 of the season.

    You wont even know if the line can block for beyond 4 games. The first 3 will show us nothing...so how long do you sit him?

    Not getting reps with the first team will set him back even farther. You're creating a situation where we will not be able to evaluate him.

    Only a mentally deficient person would sit him if he wins the job.
     
  20. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    And starting him against the Ravens and the Patriots will certainly show us a lot about how fast he can cover the ball during a sack. Really fine way to start a brand new quarterback.
     
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  21. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    There are good pass rushers and defenses up and down the schedule. The early weeks are typically when offense is ahead of the game. Patriots are actually a good example, they are often slow starters. Things are generally more vanilla early in the season.

    Rosen needs to play. And if he sucks to the point he can't beat out Fitz? Then he's not really worth it anyway.

    Make no mistake, Rosen is a flier, a lotto ticket rather than an investment. Grier pretty much said if he works out then fantastic, if not, we are still in position to draft a 2020 top guy.
     
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  22. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    I still say, give him a few games of mop up duty and then turn the keys over to him. Give him a minute to really get up to game speed. I understand and agree with the argument that we HAVE to know by the time the season ends, but I don't need 16 full games of tape to know for sure. 10-11 full games plus a few games of partial tape will be enough.
     
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  23. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Ultimately, it will simply come down to practice and preseason. If Rosen is struggling and looks like *** while Fitz is steady, then Fitz will start, and maybe Rosen worms his way in after a few games after garbage Fitz inevitably surfaces. If Rosen looks even halfway decent and competent, he will start and we will see what we have.

    We will also see who is taking the most first team snaps once the practices really start going. I suspect it will be Rosen. While he isn't being crowned anything, he is going to be handed every opportunity to stake his claim and impress (or fail).

    This is 100% Rosen's job to win or lose. Fitz will barely play into it at all imo.
     
  24. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Rosen has already played a season in Arizona. That is why I think starting him from the beginning is important. We absolutely need to know what we have with him by the seasons end. With that said, I'm all for this being an open competition, but Fitzpatrick has been a career backup and an occasional spark plug type of QB. If anything, Fitz can stay here and be the backup until he's 40 years old for all I care. I love Fitz the personality, but no way should he be our starting QB from day one. If that is in fact the case, then Rosen clearly didn't do what was necessary to win over the staff. No, Rosen should be the day one starter, he is here to be evaluated. He's already had a baptism by fire season in Arizona. This is year two for him still.
    My gut tells me that he's going to struggle at times and flash at other times. Eventually this board will once again divide into pro Rosen and anti Rosen posters. He'll have an up and down year and because of the uncertainty it will force the F.O's hand to draft another QB with their top pick. Hopefully i'm wrong and we have our guy, but I don't think that'll be the case. This situation has Miami Dolphin disaster written all over it. We've seen this too many times to be fooled again. I'm prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.
     
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  25. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Fitz should win the starting job due to his experience. With the schedule we have, letting Fitz start the first month makes sense, and then you can make a switch during the bye-week. The circumstances will be better as Rosen should have a more gelling OL in front of him, and mostly lesser teams to face his first month of starting.

    Worse case scenario in the long term? Fitz wins 2-3 games to start the season, as he finds that 'Fitzmagic' again. You can't make the QB switch without a losing record, so Rosen sits and Fitz goes on to win 6-8 games and Miami is out of the QB race for 2020 (unless you want to trade most of your 2020 draft and future first rounders to move up).

    Best case scenario in the long term? Fitz goes 0-4 or 1-3 and struggles in most of the games. You make the switch at the bye-week to Rosen and he manages 7-8 wins the rest of the way, getting progressively better as the season rolls along and he gains experience. Miami is out of position in the draft to grab a top QB, so they devote all the resources to building around Rosen. Everything clicks in 2020 and we roll on to an 11-12 win season and a division title (Brady struggles in 2019 by the way, and retires at the end of the season).
     
  26. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so why do you leave a worse case scenario up to chance? If the competition is close, you start Rosen immediately. If its not close, then start Fitz. But if its close, you have to find out what you have right from the beginning, you cant leave it to chance.
     
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  27. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I hope a starting QB gets injured somewhere is preseason and a team throws a draft pick at us for Fitzpatrick.

    I don't want to see him take one snap in a Dolphins uniform.

    Rosen or bust.
     
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  28. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not. I was writing that from the perspective of Fitz clearly being the better QB in camp and preseason. The coaches and players want to win now, so you can't just give the QB spot to the lesser guy and still build a winning culture. If Rosen can't keep the QB competition close, then you have to hope Fitz will flame out quickly to start the season. Going 8-8 or 9-7 with Fitz leading the way would mean no elite QB drafted in 2020 and no look at Rosen to see what you have for the future.

    Rosen starting and flaming out clears the way for a QB in 2020. On the other hand, if Rosen leads the team to 8-9 wins you probably feel okay about building around him. Josh can help usher in his replacement, or make it very difficult to draft a replacement depending on how he plays.

    I get why some would say you have to start Josh no matter what. I just don't think that's realistic.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    true, it will become evident by the players who should win the job, and thats who should start.absolutely.
     
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  30. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha. Okay, yea I agree. If Fitz wins us 7 games while Rosen sits the bench, I don't see it as such a bad thing personally. Did we miss out on Tua? Absolutely and that sucks. But does winning 7 with this roster show we have a pretty damn good coaching staff, absolutely, and that is a great start.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If Josh Rosen is the QB that the Dolphins thought he could be when they traded a 2nd round pick for him, then he should easily beat Ryan Fitzpatrick for the start in a fair QB competition.

    And if he doesn't, then he's not.

    It's really as simple as that. They're not going to rig anything in anyone's favor.
     
  32. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    Not really sure what thread i should of done this in. But do you all remember how our offense looked really bad every offseason. Well yesterday fitz threw about 10 touchdowns. Parker caught a few. Our offense overall kicked the defenses ***. Defense was doing pushups a lot. On youtube. There is a guy named dougliedowrong. He had all the info for yesterday. It is very interesting. I was kind of hoping it would already be being talked about on here?
    I guess gesicki caught a td at the highpoint with minka and x on him.
     
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  33. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Looked up this dougliedowrong guy on YouTube... looks to me like he just reads what the beat writers are tweeting out with very little, if any, analysis. Also, he has a "top 3 performers" from practice with the same exact ones as Omar Kelly, lol.

    No idea how his videos have as many views as they do, basically just rehashing the same info we get on twitter but without giving credit.
     
  34. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    Well it was interesting to me. Since I don’t have anywhere else to get that information? Not a lot of dolphin news in washington state. I watch omars videos whenever they come out. My point was more about the 5th day of minicamp. And how good the offense looks? Not advertising youtube videos.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
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  35. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    YouTube is a notorious bed of surface-level analysis, you really have to dig. I watch Matt Waldman's college analyses, 3 Yards Per Carry, ProFootballTalk's Chris Simms (can get annoying but at least sticks to his guns), and let the algorithm do the rest. For OTAs, you're not really going to get much worthwhile coverage outside of Twitter, anywhere.
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Good news they're starting quick on offense...and that Gisecki part? WOW! Beating X and Minkah is insane...must have been a perfect throw to sneak it in past two pro bowlers.
     
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  37. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Rosen might very well be the type of player to show flashes one game and then miss the next. He might string together 3-4 good games, and have one bad game. We saw this same trend with Tannehill and it divided the fan base right down the middle and we argued over it for six years. So I agree, Rosen has a small amount of time to prove himself.
    To me, the only way Rosen keeps the job is if we stay extremely competitive in the games he starts. We don't necessarily have to win 10 games and make the playoffs, but Rosen will have to convince us all that the playoffs and maybe beyond that are indeed coming.
    There are just so many variables with making a confident decision based off of ten games with a young Quarterback, but to me, he's got to give off that vibe of "hey, we have Josh Rosen, we have a chance this Sunday" for me to consider him our long term answer. I mean...maybe win a game for us on his own. Tannehill never gave me that feeling, nor could he go out there and win a game by himself for us. Usually I was cringing like a child awaiting a shot at the doctors office watching him play. Like, this might hurt I don't know. I think in a way, what we went through with Tannehill has put a lot of pressure on Rosen, because there will be very little room for forgiveness with him. A lot of us (myself included) are done with not having a franchise Quarterback in Miami. It's been over twenty years at this point.
     
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  38. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I guess I don't agree that we absolutely need to see whether Rosen is our future franchise QB THIS season. Sure if Rosen is good enough to unseat Fitz by end of preseason I'd say start him immediately, or if a Fitz injury occurs then yeah go ahead and start him the rest of the way. But you don't need to force the issue by saying we absolutely need 10+ starts from Rosen this season to see if he's the answer or not because his contract allows us to evaluate him on the cheap until 2021.

    If Rosen doesn't unseat Fitz we should still keep him, discard Fitz and draft a QB high in 2020. That 2020 draft pick isn't guaranteed to work out either so this Rosen experiment is for me not necessarily a 1-year thing. Obviously, the chances he'll be our solution at QB if he doesn't prove it this year go way down but I wouldn't force the issue by starting him X number of games nor would I give up on him if he doesn't.
     
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  39. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Rosen is not Dan Marino. AND, they didn't start Marino the first six games of his first season.
    Throwing rookies (and being Arizona's QB last year was little if any better than playing college football!) to the wolves is a good way to ruin them. We have seen it time after time after time (for those of us who have been watching football for over half a century, it is a truism!)
    Use Fitz to get the season started, and spot Rosen into games as the time/situation allows to see reactions and readiness. When he is READY to start, put Rosen under center when the situation does not lead to him getting creamed again (as much as possible) and actually find out if his Cringe Reaction has been subdued. If it has, we may have a starter for a very low cost. If not, we will probably have a very good draft pick next year
     
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  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There's many guys who weren't Dan Marino, who started from day 1 on bad teams, and weren't ruined.
     

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