1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

2019 MLB Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Unlucky 13, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    To me the DH feels like a playground rule from kickball.

    There was always that kid who couldnt kick but played awesome on defense so they would call "defense only" and have someone kick for them or play defense for both teams.

    To me, if all you do is hit you arent a real baseball player. If your hitting + fielding doesnt get you into the starting 8 position players, you shouldnt be playing. Or if that DH would be playing a position on the team bumping someone else, then you have to put up with potentially subpar fielding. Baseball is at it's best when it is about strategy and low scoring games.

    The pitcher should hit. Set pitchers free!
     
    Boik14 and Unlucky 13 like this.
  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    If pitchers could hit and didn't hurt themselves then I would agree, but they suck. I'd rather see someone actually good at it.

    As for strategy, there is plenty, and new strategy emerging all the time. Consider field shifts and the use of openers for instance. For the DH, there are still a few traditional guys like Nelson Cruz, but in many cases managers are using it with a rotating cast.

    Disagree that baseball is best low scoring. I enjoy a good mix. A pitchers duel is fun, but so is an offensive explosion, with most games inbetween. Last year was too offensively tilted, but then again imo it was better than dead ball era.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  3. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    As much as I'm not a fan of the DH, at least its born out of logic. The idea of the "opener" as anything more than a desperation gimmick is absurd.
     
  4. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    The idea of an opener is born out of the fact that certain teams just can’t afford a decent starting SP. so they figured 1-3 innings of relievers would be better. In a lot of ways I’d rather do that than invest more 2-3 million in a #5 starter. You look at the league and some of these SP are getting 10M plus when they’re really back of the rotation guys. It’s not that crazy if you have the bullpen depth to pull it off.
     
    texanphinatic likes this.
  5. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I'm not into overpaying for mediocrity either, especially with how pitchers get injured. But I do think that teams need to be constantly putting their money and effort into developing the best starters that they can. The opener idea should be, like I said, a desperation move. You do what you have to in order to survive in the short term, but you toss it aside when you're able. Its like the Wildcat in the NFL, it can't be your plan long term.
     
  6. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Most strategy is born of desperation though. You are forced to adapt, so you do. Some sticks around long term, others peter out quickly. And let's be honest as well, teams only use it in place of maybe 1-2 starters, not all 5. So once through through the rotation leading off with an opener doesn't seem unsustainable. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a better idea than just having 5 good starting pitchers - I think that's the ideal all teams would like, but prospects just so often don't pan out and some teams just can't (or won't) use the cash to load up.
     
  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Btw, anyone else excited for a good baseball talk and debate? :domodance:

    It's supposed to snow another half a foot after a week of nice weather here, so I will have dreams of sun and green until it all melts. :tongue2:
     
    Unlucky 13 and Boik14 like this.
  8. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Ideally lower budget teams have a few prospects in the minors who can jump up and fill those #4/#5 starter roles. But if players aren’t ready for that and you can’t afford to go in the FA market and there’s no suitable trade so what other options are there? If the market presents no other options is that desperation or figuring out alternatives to a real problem dictated by the games economic issues?
     
  9. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    This might be a dumb question but why are pitchers so fragile compared to the past?

    There used to be a time where you could roll with only a 4 man rotation. Honestly instead of an "opener" given all options, I'd rather run with a 4 man rotation and use the "opener" as a spot starter to give rest where needed.

    That said, I feel like pitchers today just cant do a 4 man rotation. Guys in the past still threw hard and threw pitches without the advanced knowledge of what arm angles minimize damage to certain areas and so forth.
     
  10. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Short answer, they aren't. Yes, there were guys like Nolan Ryan, but they were freaks, exceptions. Because of that, they stand large in our minds, but the reality is they weren't very common and we just glorify them with the passage of time leading us to think they were more prevalent. Pitchers used to burn out earlier, or get injured and just never heard from again in great numbers.

    Additionally, back then medicine wasn't what it was today. Guys can get TJ and come back better and stronger and extend their career. Back in the day, you either wrecked your elbow/shoulder or got TJ as a long shot fix.

    I would also hazard that batters are much better and more advanced. They will key in on a struggling pitcher up and down the lineup.

    It's very much an "old man yells at cloud" situation.
     
    Unlucky 13 and AGuyNamedAlex like this.
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    And on that note, apparently Severino needs TJ, yikes.
     
    Unlucky 13, AGuyNamedAlex and Boik14 like this.
  12. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Your idea to go back to the 4 man rotation is ideal imo but some teams are using openers two times through the rotation. I’d prefer it personally going back to 4 man rotations

    Two reasons regarding why they’re so fragile:

    1. One theory says it’s because they’re playing too much from the time they are kids. Another theory says that’s they don’t throw enough (primarily hear that from old school guys like Nolan Ryan). And they’re both true. There’s more regular season games (162 to 154), more postseason games and more going on in the offseason as far as workouts and spring training. They’re also always throwing competitively (I.e. throw days/bullpen sessions) etc which doesn’t mean much except it’s more torque on the arm and elbow. There’s got to be a happy medium in there as far as the schedule and offseason stuff. Some guys find that medium. Most don’t.

    2. The other part quite simply is because of how sports have changed from 30-40-50 years ago. The revenues (in all sports) is significantly more. Players are really interested in prolonging their career more then ever because there’s money to be made. Remember a lot of those threw so many innings because they had too. There was no free agency. The players then didn’t have the options they have today. The players union wasn’t as strong and ownership and gms nowadays are more understanding as far as player needs and health. Really you see variations of this in all sports, though more extreme in say basketball (where they do maintenance days...which is utterly ridiculous). Hockey they used to only roll 3 lines out there, now it’s 4 across the league. Football guys used to play two ways...until they realized it wasn’t sustainable. So really this has a lot to do with it imo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    Unlucky 13 and AGuyNamedAlex like this.
  13. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    It is most likely a mixture of this and what was said before about guys who were injured just weren't heard from again so much.

    There is a definite difference in workload now regular season though any way we slice it. Look at the league leaders in innings pitched through history.

    I was surprised that up until 1980 it wasnt uncommon for the leaders to pitch between 300 and 340 innings per season.

    Since then there has been a steady decline down from the 280s, to the 250s to where we are now that 200-220 innings is a lot. That is only 2/3 of what pitchers from 1920 to 1980 were pitching.

    You are right though. With these mega contracts it is in the best interest of the player and team to prolong their ability to pitch at a high level.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    Boik14 and Unlucky 13 like this.
  14. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I think that you're both right. The reality is that in the really old days, there were a ton of guys who basically pitched until their arm broke and they were then done. A small percentage of them were able to be a machine who thew as many innings as he and the club wanted, and so those are the ones that history remembers.

    The only real thing physically that I see as being different is that the guys back then didn't weight lift, and in general didn't take fitness as strongly as players do today. There's a lot of antecdotal evidence that being a big guy who's less fit actually enables some men to have more pitching stamina long term. Think of guys like CC Sabathia, Davd Wells, Bartolo Colon, ect. These guys are closer to what was the norm once upon a time.
     
    Boik14 and AGuyNamedAlex like this.
  15. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Keep in mind also TJ surgery didn’t exist until the mid 70’s and wasn’t really a mainstream thing until the mid 90’s. So when the arm went, it just went. You couldn’t fix velocity drops or other issues modern medicine could. Thoracic outlet syndrome is still a career killer (see Harvey, Matt) but at least guy stand a chance. But you’re not taking in to account the extra innings in season, playoff expansion from 1 round to 3 plus a WC game, and all the extra ****.
     
  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    I’m. A big believer in this. For every Pedro Martinez or Roy Oswalt type in stature who had HOF or all star numbers, even a decade of dominance like Pedro had there are tons of guys like the ones you mentioned who just last.

    The weight lifting part is also crazy to me. Like I look at the way Noah Syndergaard showed up this year and it scares the crap out of me. He could be another Verlander type who has the frame to support it but he’s wound too tightly for my liking. Baseball players need to be flexible and durable, not body builders and football players. I’d rather he be doing yoga then bench pressing and doing bicep curls.
     
  17. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    The thing is I dont think you can necessarily use extra postseason innings as part of the work load for two reasons.

    1) Some teams from day 1 know they will not be in the postseason but their pitcher usage is more or less the same.

    2) A lot of pitchers are eliminated before pitching many innings in the postseason. The added innings really only become a factor for the final few teams and none of their guys are pitching 150 extra innings in the postseason to bridge that gap.

    I do think side work and offseason work are legitimate things to consider though.
     
    Boik14 likes this.
  18. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    So kind of late but how did you all feel about the response to the Astros scandal?

    I personally would have handed down enough punishment to cripple their team which maybe is wrong of me.

    I would have given a permanent ban to all coaches, staff members and forced the sale of the team.

    I would have handed down a 3 season suspension for ALL Astros players who participated by receiving signals at the plate or gave signals in any form.

    A 1 year suspension for everyone who knew but did not report.

    I wouldnt care if they had to field a minor league team.

    I would also ban them from the playoffs for two seasons.
     
    Boik14 and Unlucky 13 like this.
  19. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I'm totally with you, but remember, more than ever, the MLB commish is the servant of the owners. Manfred straight up works for the owners even moreso than Seilig, and I really don't think that he was going to cross Crane unless he had to. The whole thing was going to get swept under the rug if it hadn't all been exposed by Fiers.

    I'm totally on the bandwagon to take the sledgehammer to anyone cheating, with heavy suspensions. Their whole front office, coaching staff, plus Cora and Beltran should just be done, for good.
     
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I'm very against cheating in sports because it creates a scenario where everyone has to look for ways to cheat to keep up.

    It them becomes a matter of who cheats best instead of a competition if skill.

    I totally get why major punishment wasnt handed down, but at least a little more would have been nice.

    I've read that in Spring Training Astros batters have been getting beaned quite a bit. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It would be terrible if a pitch meant for the back slipped and caught a helmet/head.
     
    Unlucky 13 likes this.
  21. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I'm very, very against the players taking things into their own hands. On that note, I would like to see guys thrown out and suspended a lot more for intentionally beaning guys and for fighting.

    If a pitcher clearly throws at a batter, I'd ban him for a month. Do it a second time, and he's banned for a season.

    If a batter chargers the mound, same thing, out for a month, then a season for a second offense.

    If a guy leaves the bench and joins in a fight, out for a month. If he leaves the bench for a fight but doesn't join in, out for a week.

    Make them bring up the whole AAA team for a week if necessary, and screw up everyone's 40-man time. That'll stick it to the whole org and make it so that teams take it seriously, and mandate that it stops.
     
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  22. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I agree with that.


    At the same time though I do think in this situation, if the hit batters have been intentional, the players wouldnt feel the need to do so if the league was more stern with the initial punishment.

    Not that it makes it okay, but it's almost like vigilante justice at that point where people begin to feel like "Well if you wont do anything, I'll get the point across myself"

    I do doubt it continues into the regular season where putting a man in base matters.
     
  23. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Completely agree. You can thank the players union for negotiating immunity for testimony (essentially) for their players. And Manfred is a pushover.
     
  24. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

    71,670
    31,599
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    I don’t want head shots but I do want them to get a few in the ribs and arm. You cheat the game and you deserve that. Take first and take this bruise with ya.
     
  25. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I would say that Manfred is more than a pushover. He's working in the interests of making the owners as rich as possible, and not what's in the best interests of baseball at a whole. I would even go so far as to say he and they are being more short sighted about the consequences than at any point that I can remember.

    I'm always on the side of the sport and the league instead of the players when it comes to the CBA and things of that nature. But at this point I don't think that either side is really working for that right now, and we have to hope that things happen that force their hand.
     
    Boik14 likes this.
  26. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    48,491
    23,919
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Like the skill of pitch framing. :001_rolleyes:
     
  27. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    Pitch framing is absolutely some BS.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  28. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    Honestly? Yeah it's a skill.
     
  29. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    48,491
    23,919
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    I'm with Unlucky. I think pitch framing is akin to cheating. I can't wait for the robot overlord strike zones.
     
    texanphinatic and Unlucky 13 like this.
  30. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    Same! The strike zone should be as close to identical for every pitcher as possible. Whether it's a rookie making his first appearance or a guy who'll walk into the HOF when he retires.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  31. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I didnt say it was an honorable skill. Just that it is a skill because some are better at it than others.
     
  32. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I equate it to guys who are good at flopping to draw a penalty in other sports.
     
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  33. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I mean, if you think about it at the end of the day it is the umpires fault not the catcher. I dont think it's as bad as flopping because it should still be easy to avoid.

    He is supposed to be calling based on where the ball crossed the plate, not where the catcher pulled his glove.

    I honestly love human error in Baseball though. I feel like it adds story, intrigue and suspense to the sport rather than feeling mechanical.
     
  34. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    The problem is that human error bleeds into favoritism really quickly. We all know that a lot of umps are going to give one pitcher, batter or catcher a call, and then turn around in the next half inning and not give the exact same call to the guy on the other side. Its maddening, especially when a rival team is always getting those calls. The point of officiating in any sport is supposed to be objectivity and consistency. If the other team is just awesome and is kicking your rear end, then most people can deal with it and move on. But when the official is corrupt and is giving favorable calls to one side, then people remember it for decades.
     
  35. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I guess it just doesnt bother me in the same way.

    Growing up as a Marlin fan in the 90s I saw a lot of the Atlanta "Big 3" starters. They would always get those calls but it didnt bother me really. I would be more upset with hitters for not understanding they had to protect the plate more.

    I do get what you are saying though because bad calls tick me off in all other sports. I dont understand why they dont in Baseball honestly.
     
    Boik14 likes this.
  36. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    As a Cubs fan, games against those guys were maddening. A pitch would be two inches off the plate. There was no way possible for the hitter to do anything about it other than foul it off. But because they'd just keep putting it in the same place and never give you anything that was actually hitable, the batter basically went up there and all he could do was hope for a mistake. It was like starting in an 0-2 hole every time.

    And then of course opposing pitchers could put it in the same spot and it was a ball. Thats the real kick in the pants. One set of rules for some players, another for the rest. That's a big reason that I stopped watching basketball twenty years ago, and I don't miss it.
     
    texanphinatic likes this.
  37. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

    10,434
    3,748
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Detroit Metro Area MI
    Yeah robot umpires are sorely needed I think. That "pitch framing" is considered a valuable skill is ludicrous and frankly not fun to watch. I'd rather debate the merits of a catcher's hitting and defense than his ability to frame a pitch.

    While we are discussing weird baseball quirks, what about the variance in park/outfield sizes? I'd like to see that more standardized personally.
     
    Unlucky 13 likes this.
  38. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    I think that as long as the parks fall within a reasonable size zone, its really fun that they're all a bit different. However, I do think that building a park, or adjusting one, to cater to the current roster is bogus.
     
  39. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    2,417
    2,016
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    I guess I am very different with these subjects.

    I love crazy ballparks with strange alleys and angles in the outfield. Every park should have a unique feel that you can build a unique team around.

    If we had bigger outfields we would probably see more speedy guys creating offense aside from just going from station to station waiting for a HR.

    I do agree there are limits of course. Dont put the fence 700 feet back obviously.

    Also I believe in not building it around a current team but a sustainable style of play. Pitcher friendly vs hitter and so forth based on franchise ideals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  40. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

    30,080
    31,375
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    Speaking of ballparks, does anyone else find themselves in the humorous spot of referring to a field by its old corporate name instead of the new one. I mean, I'm hardly attached to the companies, but when a place has one name on it when I get used to it, then it just sticks. This is especially true when I really don't have much of an idea about what the original company was to begin with, so the name is the ballpark.

    Seattle's stadium will just always be Safeco to me, for example.
     

Share This Page