2017 MLB Season Thread

"Ray Finkle wrote:

It's absolutely a slippery slope.

What would you say if I were to tell you that Player A played 13 seasons, in 12 of them never hit more than 38 home runs, in 10 of those seasons never hit more than 28 home runs, yet in one of those seasons hit 61 home runs. Would you be suspicious? If that happened today that player would be hammered in the media and there would be a PED witch hunt. No one blinks an eye with Maris though.

Remember when Maris played greenies weren't against the rules, now they are. Much like when Bonds played steroids weren't against the rules either. Hank Aaron admitted to taking greenies, which again are now illegal and tested for in the MLB, so maybe he shouldn't be viewed as the 'real' Home Run King since people want to disqualify Bonds. See it's a slippery slope.

If you want to believe that just because there aren't any whispers or evidence that means players are clean, that's fine but you'd be wrong. Do you honestly think that these players are all 100% clean because there's testing in place and they are under the microscope? Do you think the only players that get caught are the only ones using them? Just look at Arod, he never failed a MLB PED test since they started testing in 2005. The only reason why he got busted is because he was part of the Biogenesis scandal, not for any test he failed done by the MLB. There are absolutely guys out there using and not getting caught. That's why we should take these records with a grain of salt. That's why I don't get all worked up over these records and can just sit back and enjoy the game for what it is.

The player A vs player B stuff is irrelevant. We're talking about information coming out proving cheating, not what the statistics say. It's really that simple. And saying that steroids weren't illegal when Bonds was using them is incorrect. Steroids were illegal, but Bonds and the people at BALCO were trying to skirt the system by using steroids that weren't specifically banned. They knew it was shady, though, because they were being secretive about it. That's different than Aaron using greenies, when no forms of PEDs were banned by baseball. And even if they were, there is no evidence to suggest that Maris was using them, you're just speculating. When you start speculating, that's where the slippery slope happens.

As far as guys using, and not getting caught, it's the same deal. Until they are caught, you take their stats at face value. If they get caught, that goes away. Again, it's simple.

"sports24/7 wrote:

The player A vs player B stuff is irrelevant. We're talking about information coming out proving cheating, not what the statistics say. It's really that simple. And saying that steroids weren't illegal when Bonds was using them is incorrect. Steroids were illegal, but Bonds and the people at BALCO were trying to skirt the system by using steroids that weren't specifically banned. They knew it was shady, though, because they were being secretive about it. That's different than Aaron using greenies, when no forms of PEDs were banned by baseball. And even if they were, there is no evidence to suggest that Maris was using them, you're just speculating. When you start speculating, that's where the slippery slope happens.

As far as guys using, and not getting caught, it's the same deal. Until they are caught, you take their stats at face value. If they get caught, that goes away. Again, it's simple.

And when Bonds used steroids they weren't banned by baseball either, it's not different, that's my point which you just proved.

Why does someone like Aaron get a free pass when he was using a now banned PED yet Bonds is the poster child of cheating. Both guys used PEDs at the time when they were not against MLB rules nor where they tested for. Those tests started in 2005. Hence again why it's a slippery slope.

I never said steroids weren't illegal, I said they weren't against the rules of the MLB and weren't until 2005. Now if you want to get into if it was ethical for guys to use something that was illegal that's a completely different topic.

I wasn't speculating that Maris did or didn't do anything. Just showing that we don't know who does what and when. If Maris had played in the 90s or 2000s even without any whispers or evidence of PED use his 1961 season absolutely would be looked at suspiciously. Just look at the witch hunt that followed Jose Bautista a few years ago when he came out of nowhere. And PEDs/steroids were around in 1961, Mantle was accused of using them that year.

Bottom line is we just don't know who did what and when. You have to take these records at face value.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

And when Bonds used steroids they weren't banned by baseball either, it's not different, that's my point which you just proved.

Why does someone like Aaron get a free pass when he was using a now banned PED yet Bonds is the poster child of cheating. Both guys used PEDs at the time when they were not against MLB rules nor where they tested for. Those tests started in 2005. Hence again why it's a slippery slope.

I never said steroids weren't illegal, I said they weren't against the rules of the MLB and weren't until 2005. Now if you want to get into if it was ethical for guys to use something that was illegal that's a completely different topic.

I wasn't speculating that Maris did or didn't do anything. Just showing that we don't know who does what and when. If Maris had played in the 90s or 2000s even without any whispers or evidence of PED use his 1961 season absolutely would be looked at suspiciously. Just look at the witch hunt that followed Jose Bautista a few years ago when he came out of nowhere. And PEDs/steroids were around in 1961, Mantle was accused of using them that year.

Bottom line is we just don't know who did what and when. You have to take these records at face value.

They were banned, though:

In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball.

Via ESPN.com:

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game…

This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

There was no testing, and no clear punishment, but they were deemed illegal at that time. Then Selig restated that they were illegal in 1997.

Early in the 1997 season, MLB Commissioner Bud Selig issued a memo that essentially rehashed what was said in Fay Vincent's 1991 memo. According to Tom Farrey of ESPN.com, the memo stated that steroids were illegal in baseball and it urged clubs to make sure players knew it.

So regardless of how strict they were being about it, he broke the rules to set those records.

And again, we may not know that certain players did not partake with certainty, but we do know some players did partake. And those players should and will lose credibility because of it. Maris has never been caught, or even accused of taking anything, and there hasn't been a hint of it with Stanton either. Again, if that changes, so will the perception of those players and their records.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

It's absolutely a slippery slope.

What would you say if I were to tell you that Player A played 13 seasons, in 12 of them never hit more than 38 home runs, in 10 of those seasons never hit more than 28 home runs, yet in one of those seasons hit 61 home runs. Would you be suspicious? If that happened today that player would be hammered in the media and there would be a PED witch hunt. No one blinks an eye with Maris though.

Remember when Maris played greenies weren't against the rules, now they are. Much like when Bonds played steroids weren't against the rules either. Hank Aaron admitted to taking greenies, which again are now illegal and tested for in the MLB, so maybe he shouldn't be viewed as the 'real' Home Run King since people want to disqualify Bonds. See it's a slippery slope.

If you want to believe that just because there aren't any whispers or evidence that means players are clean, that's fine but you'd be wrong. Do you honestly think that these players are all 100% clean because there's testing in place and they are under the microscope? Do you think the only players that get caught are the only ones using them? Just look at Arod, he never failed a MLB PED test since they started testing in 2005. The only reason why he got busted is because he was part of the Biogenesis scandal, not for any test he failed done by the MLB. There are absolutely guys out there using and not getting caught. That's why we should take these records with a grain of salt. That's why I don't get all worked up over these records and can just sit back and enjoy the game for what it is.

Being illegal in baseball and against the real law of the land are 2 different things. Greenies are banned from baseball nowadays because they understand the health risks. They always understood many of the risks with Steroids since the Germans tested them on their prisoners in the camps. Steroids are actually against the law, greenies (or some similar equivalent) you can buy in many drug stores. They are not the same. One has a much greater impact on your body.

"sports24/7 wrote:

They were banned, though:

There was no testing, and no clear punishment, but they were deemed illegal at that time. Then Selig restated that they were illegal in 1997.

So regardless of how strict they were being about it, he broke the rules to set those records.

And again, we may not know that certain players did not partake with certainty, but we do know some players did partake. And those players should and will lose credibility because of it. Maris has never been caught, or even accused of taking anything, and there hasn't been a hint of it with Stanton either. Again, if that changes, so will the perception of those players and their records.

Yeah I know all of that however there was no testing and no punishment. It was basically done because of the Steroid Control Act. Basically lip service so they can say to the government hey see what we did here. But much like stealing signs or pitchers using pine tar, it was a don't ask don't tell type of thing. I blame MLB for not actually enforcing the rule with testing sooner.

I guess its just me but I really just don't care who took what. If they want to take PEDs whatever. Maybe I'm just burnt out from the topic.

"Boik14 wrote:

Being illegal in baseball and against the real law of the land are 2 different things. Greenies are banned from baseball nowadays because they understand the health risks. They always understood many of the risks with Steroids since the Germans tested them on their prisoners in the camps. Steroids are actually against the law, greenies (or some similar equivalent) you can buy in many drug stores. They are not the same. One has a much greater impact on your body.

I've actually talked to former MLB players that took both greenies and steroids. They all said they thought greenies had more day to day impact than steroids did. So take that for whatever it's worth.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

Yeah I know all of that however there was no testing and no punishment. It was basically done because of the Steroid Control Act. Basically lip service so they can say to the government hey see what we did here. But much like stealing signs or pitchers using pine tar, it was a don't ask don't tell type of thing. I blame MLB for not actually enforcing the rule with testing sooner.

I guess its just me but I really just don't care who took what. If they want to take PEDs whatever. Maybe I'm just burnt out from the topic.

And that's fine. The record books will always say that Bonds has the most. It will be up to people individually to determine what they deem the actual record to be in their minds. There will be plenty of people that take the same approach you do, and they're entitled to feel that way. But I believe there will also be plenty of people that will see those records as tainted and feel the people who don't have the burden of proof saying they broke the rules as the true record holders.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

I've actually talked to former MLB players that took both greenies and steroids. They all said they thought greenies had more day to day impact than steroids did. So take that for whatever it's worth.

Thats not worth a whole lot. Steroids are far more destructive to your body long term.

I care very, very, very deeply about the topic. I detest cheating, and especially when its a performance enhancer. When its a PED that's dangerous to the user, it adds further layers, as it then encourages others to follow the same road to keep up.

I wish that every single PED user was banned for life, and that their records were stricken from the books. If that meant that 75% of the players in MLB had to be replaced, so be it. Same for the other sports, even on the teams that I'm a fan of.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

I care very, very, very deeply about the topic. I detest cheating, and especially when its a performance enhancer. When its a PED that's dangerous to the user, it adds further layers, as it then encourages others to follow the same road to keep up.

I wish that every single PED user was banned for life, and that their records were stricken from the books. If that meant that 75% of the players in MLB had to be replaced, so be it. Same for the other sports, even on the teams that I'm a fan of.

Agree 100%. Without integrity the games mean nothing.

I never contributed a lot to the MLB threads but, in the good old days there were individual team threads with a ton more posts than this thread

so whats your guys world series picks? I'm going with a rematch of last year but cleveland winning it this year. I'd like to see the dodgers in it though, not sure why

Dodgers over Cleveland. Which is too bad cause i hate Utley. But love Grandyman

Anyone but the Nationals and Boston.

I'd like to see LA and Houston.

8 games to get five. Starting to look unlikely he will need to go on a surge. The good thing is 3 of those games are in coors field which he completely owns. And then he got 4 games in marlins park to end the season against the Braves.

Had the Cubs not blown it late yesterday, they'd be playing for the division title today. The Magic number is down to 4 though, with 8 to play. Even though I'm a Cubs fan, I understand that they're probably only the third best team in the NL going into the postseason, but once you're in there, anything can happen.

"Boik14 wrote:

Thats not worth a whole lot. Steroids are far more destructive to your body long term.

Long term health of someone's body has nothing to do with this discussion. It's about the impact of greenies and PEDs have on the player's performance.

"King Felix wrote:

I never contributed a lot to the MLB threads but, in the good old days there were individual team threads with a ton more posts than this thread

so whats your guys world series picks? I'm going with a rematch of last year but cleveland winning it this year. I'd like to see the dodgers in it though, not sure why

I agree, the other sports thread talking baseball used to be great. Unfortunately pretty much 90% of the people that posted have been MIA here, myself included, for a long long time.

As far as WS, my choice is obvious but if not the Sox I'll be rooting hard for Cleveland in the AL. For the NL, I don't really care but I guess anyone but the Cubs just because they won it all last year.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

Long term health of someone's body has nothing to do with this discussion. It's about the impact of greenies and PEDs have on the player's performance.

Great. PED's still aid in muscle growth, muscle recovery and overall strength. Greenies dont do any of those things.

"Boik14 wrote:

Dodgers over Cleveland. Which is too bad cause i hate Utley. But love Grandyman

Anyone but the Nationals and Boston.

Do you have a personal story with granderson? I've seen you post twice recently about him, I'm intrigued. Also I know the nationals are a divisional rival but I think it would be fun if they made it, it's always nice to see new teams in the world series. I mean hell, next year it will be Seattle :tongue:

I'm very much ok with no new teams in the WS on the NL side. :up:

Cubs clinch the Central with one win or one Brewers loss the remainder of the week. This will be the first time that they have been in the post season three straight years since 1906-08! If they can win two more games, it will be the first time that they have won 90+ three years in a row since 1928-30.

"Boik14 wrote:

Great. PED's still aid in muscle growth, muscle recovery and overall strength. Greenies dont do any of those things.

I don't think you realize just how much greenies had effects on the players during the long season or exactly what they did to aid those players. You simply can't dismiss their impact because they didn't help build muscle/strength. PEDs aren't all about home run totals or adding an extra few MPH on your fast ball.

"King Felix wrote:

Do you have a personal story with granderson? I've seen you post twice recently about him, I'm intrigued. Also I know the nationals are a divisional rival but I think it would be fun if they made it, it's always nice to see new teams in the world series. I mean hell, next year it will be Seattle :tongue:

I dont have a personal story other then everyone talking about what a great teammate the guy is and he had a bunch of game winning hits and homers the last 3 and a half years. Hes a genuinely likeable player imo so i want him to bs successful and hes talked about the possibility of retiring.

"Ray Finkle wrote:

I don't think you realize just how much greenies had effects on the players during the long season or exactly what they did to aid those players. You simply can't dismiss their impact because they didn't help build muscle/strength. PEDs aren't all about home run totals or adding an extra few MPH on your fast ball.

Im not dismissing the impact of greenies. Their effects though are minimal and their performance boosting capabilities are more equivalent to slamming cokes or expressos rather then steroids which not only build strength but change body composition, bone/muscle mass, and increased stamina due to upping marrow/red blood count/oxygen flow. Im not saying greenie usgae is ok...im saying most of those substances are over the counter and the overwhelming majority are not illegal, just banned (recently) by baseball.

Not to flood the thread with all Cubs news, but they're 45-23 in the second half, which would be a 107 win pace over a full season. Quite the improvement from two games under at the break. They aren't all the way back to where they were a year ago at this point, but they are now to a point where they should be considered a true contender to come out of the NL.

A series vs Washington is now all but guaranteed. I'm wondering how Harper is going to play after being on the DL for so long. He's only played in 106 games this year. In fact, the only three Nationals players to appear in 120+ games this year are Zimmerman, Rendon and Murphy, and none have been in more than 142. The Cubs have eight guys who have played in 122 or more, and eleven who have played in 100.

Washington looks to have a clear edge in starting pitching given how everyone has played in 2017, but most of the Cubs rotation has pitched better as of late. It should be a tight, close series.

On another note, does anyone think that the winner of the likely Arizona/Colorado series can take out the Dodgers? I think either one can potentially explode for a ton of runs in any given game. I'm pulling for Arizona because of their pitching.

The Cubs, Nationals, Rockies and Diamondbacks are 1-4 in the NL in runs scored. The Dodgers are 7th, but they are the easy leader in team ERA, like Chicago was a year ago, a whole 0.30 ahead of #2 Arizona.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

On another note, does anyone think that the winner of the likely Arizona/Colorado series can take out the Dodgers? I think either one can potentially explode for a ton of runs in any given game. I'm pulling for Arizona because of their pitching.

The Cubs, Nationals, Rockies and Diamondbacks are 1-4 in the NL in runs scored. The Dodgers are 7th, but they are the easy leader in team ERA, like Chicago was a year ago, a whole 0.30 ahead of #2 Arizona.

I think once you get into the playoffs any team can win any series.