You guys are minimizing to a huge extent this stat of no blitz and pressure in 2.5 seconds. That's barely out of his drop, sometimes, and you want him running as soon as his drop is over.
well now your completely off the original topic..the topic is, when to run and when to stay, he chooses to stay waaaaaay to often for his skill set..like I said, I don't care what stats your throwing out, running on his own without design on average .5 times a game is unacceptable if its about playing winning football.
He doesn't need to automatically run. We're just pointing out a weakness of his. And this isn't saying the O-line isn't a big problem.
I think you play differently when you think you can stay in the pocket and not get as easily sacked. Both Luck and Roethlisberger can extend plays while being tackled sometimes. They are a different breed, so the sacks should be more numerous because of that than someone who has similar pocket presence but decides to throw the ball away.
Thats all irrelevant really. You could have 5 first round picks there, but if they aren't good NFL players, it won't matter. Lets be honest here... We don't know what we have at either Guard spot right now. Penciled in at those two spots is likely Douglas, who's a rookie, we know nothing about. He could be terrible. Then you have Billy Turner. Who is another complete unknown in NFL action. Then there's Dallas Thomas. We all know how that story goes. So you can spew off where these guys were picked all you want, but if the right players aren't there (which could be the case at both Guard spots) where they were picked is completely irrelevant. Not to mention, you have Albert coming back from knee surgery. The OL should be a big concern.
Back to this topic.. do you remember Luck in college? I can't find the video right now but I remember him throwing from one side of the field to the other (laterally) after rolling out. That was as amazing to me as that long TD he threw while falling down.
and I stated he's poor at both aspects..one he and his coaches cn take into their own hands and do something about it so it could help our team, and 2, we continue to build a better line so it can help him with his pocket presence.
Wait...what? He took 25 sacks on a similar amount of plays where there was no blitz, and pressure got to him in about 2.5 seconds. These weren't plays where he was running around extending. I realized I didn't give the link to the whole article. Here you go: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/05/qbs-in-focus-pressure-and-the-blitz/
One example of a QB that has poor lateral agility, (even worse than Tannehill's) but still knows when to run, is Joe Flacco. I remember this one play last season in the end of the 2nd quarter where we had them at the 1 or 2 yard line and Flacco dropped back to pass, we were almost getting to him for a safety but the guy managed to escape and run for a first down. We were up 10-0, that drive ended up being a TD to make it 10-7 at halftime. These are the type of plays where Tannehill needs to get better at. Maybe if it were Tannehill in place of Flacco, he would have taken the safety and maybe would've even ended up losing the game because of that. PS: I'm trying to post pictures of that play, but they're not showing up here, how do I upload pictures from my computer to here?
Well, just going by where Tannehill is ranked, it does suggest he does worse than average with pressure. Consider.. vs. no pressure: ranked 8th vs. pressure: ranked 18th vs. no blitz no pressure: ranked 7th vs. no blitz pressure: ranked 24th vs. blitz no pressure: ranked 6th vs. blitz pressure: ranked 9th
Yeah, but what really drags down his overall ranking is that No Blitz Pressure category. Ranked 6th and 9th in the blitz category is pretty good. That tells me that when he knows there's a chance that pressure is coming, he does well. It's when there shouldn't be pressure, and it's in his face quick, that he struggles. He's top 10 except for the No Blitz Pressure category.
don't need to post those for me, flacco is very good at extending plays with his feet..absolutely understands the line of when to stand in there and when to gtfo.. its like clockwork when I laugh, every year I hear commentators say after flacco runs and makes a play or scrambles away from pressure, ''its a part of his game that is so underrated'' whatever, if you studied him coing out of college he deserved his draft status and was very good at extending plays.. and i disagree about his lateral agility relative to ryan.
Right, so he is really bad when he isn't expecting pressure before the snap. There are just some QB's that do that better.
actually that makes the case the offensive line was horrible. with blitz pressure he's ranked 9th. its when there is no blitz and the line breaksdown that his stats fall off and thats because of the 2.5 seconds he was getting. that means thaat basically right around the time he sets his feet is when the pressure arrives
What the QB does has an effect on whether he gets sacked too, and there's nothing in the data that allows you to disentangle whether it's more the O-line's fault or the QB's fault for that stat. The narrative could as easily be that Tannehill is not good at sensing pressure, but IF he does he does well. So, when it's obvious he'll have pressure (blitz) he does well. That narrative fits at least as well as any other, especially given what I've seen with my own eyes (him not making those single step evasive moves as well as some other QB's).
There aren't that many starting QB's. But the stats suggest he's well worse than average at this because of the drop-off in rank.
what i saw with my two eyes was pressure coming from both up the middle (guard/ center position) and the outside. when tannehill faced pressure from only one direction (either side or up the gut) he generally did alright and avoided it. if you can find anyone who has those kind of stats i guarantee you they will back me up. and when you face pressure from two directions no qb is going to escape it consistently
Well, whatever our differences in observation (wish we had a lot of game tape here to look at), the hypothesis that Tannehill is just not that good at sensing pressure is very much viable given those stats. The stats don't rule out the idea that he's fine if he knows there's pressure, but he doesn't sense it well when he wasn't expecting it beforehand. Your suggestion that it's primarily the O-line is possible too, but then you've got to explain why the O-line is fine when there's a blitz, and you have to explain that without invoking Tannehill. So, what's your reasoning on why our O-line is fine with blitzes?
It's not that the oline is fine, it's that Tannehill is able to find receivers. When four guys are rushing and getting quick pressure, it's really hard to find anyone to throw to. It's why teams want to generate pressure with their front four. Having to blitz leaves you exposed.
Four guys are rushing all the other QB's in the no-blitz + pressure category no? That means a big drop-off in rank implies Tannehill is either worse than average at sensing pressure OR he's worse than average at throwing under pressure (that he senses) when you have an extra guy in coverage. Personally, that second explanation seems far less likely because I've seen him be surprised by the pressure at the last moment too often.
Yet you made excuses why Roethlisberger taking 25 sacks didn't mean he was poor. And you have to look at the attempts...not all had as many instances of that situation occurring as Tannehill.
One thing I'm really excited about is to see what Bill Lazor will do in short-yardage situations now that we have a big, fast TE in Cameron, a big WR in Parker and more powerful back that can also catch in Ajayi. We can be really unpredictable in 12 personnel (1 RB, 2 TEs, 2 WRs) with Ajayi as the RB, Cameron and Sims as TEs, along with Parker and someone like Jennings or Stills as the second WR. Imagine a formation with Sims in-line and Cameron behind the line, being able to motion to the slot, I'd think we'd have a lot of success both running and passing out of that. We could simply hand off to Ajayi to bring in the tough yards, or motion Cameron and call a pass play with Ajayi running a wheel route, we can play-action to Stills going deep, or just throw a quick slant to our sure-handed Parker, really the possibilities are endless... I think we'll be much better in short-yardage and goal-line situations this season.
Was my explanation off? I think when you are like Luck or Roethisberger and you know you aren't easy to tackle, you approach the issue of what to do in the pocket differently. I'm still waiting for you to come up with a decent hypothesis about how Tannehill is not bad at sensing pressure, but he suddenly is far worse at finding an open receiver in no blitz + pressure conditions compared to other QB's in the same conditions. What about Tannehill makes him so bad at that, plausibly speaking? Nothing as far as I can see. There's nothing wrong with offering an explanation for what might otherwise seem like an anomaly, but this idea that our O-line is bad except during blitzes or that Tannehill is suddenly worse than average when facing no blitz + pressure doesn't make sense to me. No, until I hear a better explanation I'm sticking with the one I offered: he just doesn't sense pressure that well when he isn't expecting it. It's simple, plausible and so far supported by the data.
we're seeing a different game then. i see half the sacks tannehill takes as completely unavoidable, another 25% unavoidable for him because he doesnt have the burst to go from 1st gear to 4th like a handful of qbs have and the last 25% as ones that he couldve done this or that differently but I'm looking at it from an overhead camera angle and he's looking at it from a ground perspective so I'm not sure what his eyes see. so from my perspective he's responsible approximately for 12 sacks last year which is less then one per game and the oline was responsible for about 36
The majority of the sacks were due to immediate pressure right up the middle. But I know you have your agenda
Umm... I in general agree (forget the exact percentages) that the O-line is mostly responsible for his sacks. But that's mostly irrelevant to this particular discussion because we're talking about the PFF stats resnor posted which include lots of other stuff than just sacks (it's mostly stuff other than sacks that leads to the ranking).
What's my "agenda", other than to win a Super Bowl? I take offense to your post. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, your explanation was off. Big Ben took about the same number of sacks in no blitz+ pressure situations as Tannehill, with very similar initial pressure numbers, and similar sack time numbers. So, it would appear that Big Ben did nothing different than Tannehill. Think about 2.5 seconds in relation to a dropback from singleback formation. Prior to snap, you don't read blitz, so you don't change protections, change play, etc. You go with what was called. Maybe it's a play action. You snap, start drop back. Takes what, about a second to finish your 3 step drop back. You fake the hand off...And BAM!! There's a guy or three on you. Now, what would you have him do differently?? When he reads a blitz, he's fine, as he's able to adjust, but when the offensive line decides to be turnstiles, there's no predicting it, and you can't sense pressure. It just blows up in your face. So, it's not that the oline is better during blitzes, it's that Tannehill had a chance with blitzes to succeed. Honestly, last year, if you wanted Tannehill to "sense" pressure from non-blitzes, he would have to just not trust his line ever, and simply plan to run as he came out of every drop-back when he didn't read blitz.
One other thing, if we are running a 3 wide set, with a TE and RB, and give up pressure to a four man rush, that allows four 7 guys in coverage. That means you have one defender for each receiver, one for the TE, one for the RB, and one to spy on Tannehill if he tries to run. Or you go zone, with equally good odds in the defenses favor.
It's not irrelevant. I found that PFF article when I did a search around Tannehill's time in the pocket and sacks, since people were again talking about his terrible pocket presence. If we agree that the oline was responsible for the majority of sacks, then why are we still discussing it? It's what I've been saying all along. If the oline is responsible, then why try to blame it on Tannehill and "bad pocket presence?"
That's only looking at stats. I personally think Roethlisberger makes better decisions in the pocket (given his skill set) than Tannehill. At least I think that's relatively clear, but who knows what others think. So, I was trying to reconcile the stats being similar with that assumption, and the explanation makes sense from that point of view. Yeah, none of the above explains why Tannehill is suddenly worse than other QB's in the same condition. Keep in mind in many cases he is standing in the pocket scanning the field. It's in these situations (not so much what you're describing) where you sometimes see his lack of pocket presence.
Sure, and I'm not saying he has perfect pocket presence. I just think that some few hiccups get blown out of proportion when talking about Tannehill. He had a terrible pocket to work out of for pretty much three years, and has been pretty productive in spite of it.
It's mostly irrelevant because those PFF stats are based on tons of stuff other than stats. And whether the O-line is mostly responsible for sacks doesn't tell you why there's such a drop in overall rank when there's pressure (that is, all the other QB's are in the same condition, yet Tannehill's ranking dropped).
