Yeah, agreed on the flashes. I think the question, or the disagreement in general, is why the flashes? I think the offensive line is incredibly important, especially to a young, raw QB, and not having an adequate line causes a lot of problems. Sure, Luck has done well, but I don't think we should be judging Tannehill using a once in a lifetime prospect like Luck as the measuring stick. We see established, very good/elite QBs struggle when offensive line play isn't good. Then we turn around and expect our developing QB to play like a first ballot HoFer behind one of the worst lines ever. It just doesn't seem right to me.
I definitely think that the current group of WRs is more talented and versatile, capable of attacking any coverage or spot on the field, and making plays after the catch. A night and day difference from the previous group. Cameron is a matchup tool, using him at WR or with Sims in a 2 TE set will cause unique issues for defenses. Both he and Parker are better red zone threats than we've seen in several years. If the kid from Boise is legit he and Miller could give us the 25-30 carries to stay balanced and make the offense as a whole very, very difficult to stop.
People respond differently under pressure. I don't think it's coincidence that Eli > Peyton in the playoffs, but Peyton > Eli in general, or that Flacco was just near perfect a few years ago in the playoffs while being so-so during the regular season. I also don't think it's coincidence that Peyton and Brady are feared for being able to lead a team to a win when they're down in the 4th quarter. Tannehill has all the tools to be a very good QB, and we've seen him improve in so many areas (aside from stats) since he was drafted relatively raw. Remember when he couldn't go through his progressions, or when he didn't have touch on the ball, etc.. He's fixed many of the problems people identified, but one thing that I haven't seen except in small spurts is that undying will to win. So, I personally think it's a personality issue and has less to do with any structural problems like OL. The one thing that I'll be looking for this year is whether he develops enough confidence in himself that the higher level of play becomes more second nature and occurs throughout the game. I don't think we'll ever see Tannehill get that "fire" to will the team to win in close games on a consistent basis, but he could become a good enough and reliable enough QB that he won't have to.
Let me ask this a different way: Do you believe Brady would have the same results, and viewed the same way, if he'd had a less than average oline, and didn't have a defense holding opponents to low scores?
No. I think Brady would do better because he has better pocket presence. I think some (not the majority) of the sacks are on Tannehill, and I rarely see that in Brady. Granted, the guy has been in the league longer, but it's the comparison we're making right now. And as stated before, I think Brady does better with the WR's we had in the last 3 years than Tannehill, especially with Wallace. That's responding to the OL issue. You can't really bring up the defense as an issue in the last 3 years because 2012 and 2013 the Pats had a worse defense in terms of points per game, though the difference was less than last year when they were better. Defense is a wash here.
Well, the defense played a huge role in Super Bowls for him, post season in general, actually, which is why I mention them. But we agree then, that Brady would have looked different behind a less than average oline. It's why I like people to remember what Brady looked like through like the first three games last season, when his line was terrible. So, that's Pro Bowl veteran player Brady who looked like he was done, to many people, due, I believe, to his poor oline play...Then looked like his normal HoF selfone his line play straightened out.
Yeah true, it's just not applicable in a direct comparison with the last 3 Dolphins seasons because we never got that far More to your point though, Brady never won a SB when he was playing his best as a QB. The first 3 were really team wins, he couldn't win against the Giants despite being so great, and they put against him a D-line that made his life tough like our O-line does for Tannehill, and this year his defense came up huge at the end (helped by the worst play call ever in NFL history of course). However, in all these cases, Brady was rightfully seen as one of the key reasons for the win, just not necessarily the only major reason. Yeah, O-line plays a huge role. As mentioned above, the best way to nullify Brady is to do what the Giants did to him twice in the SB. Why do you think the Dolphins, Bills and Jets now sport some of the best D-lines in the NFL? Gotta win your division first. But regarding the first few games last year, it wasn't just all that tinkering with the O-line. It was Gronk not really being ready after injury, and otherwise having WR's that just didn't know how to run routes. That second part was as important as the first I think. Either way, all this I think is separate from the "will to win" I was talking about.
i disagree with the level of play i think that you think he needs to improve...he had poor deep ball mechanics..
for me at this point its about whether or not his ceiling is good enough to get us a championship, its why Ive been desperately urging him vicariously to understand when to take off and punish a defense, that one dynamic is so important, and in three years i have not seen that conscious mentality..its truly been non existent, i mean the 8 or 9 times he did tuck and run it is when the defense collapsed on him and he had no other alternative..luck if you will..I need to see an understanding of that element to the game that all the great ones had who had his particular athletic traits..If he truly wants to elevate his game and this teams ability to win ballgames then this is the most important trait for him to comprehend.. we always hear about how certain qbs know how to win, or that x qb is a winner..well this is the element that doesn't go talked about, that does it. playing winning football is about converting on third down, its knowing that line when to take off and doing it with a purpose, not because it was an accident.. when I finally see that part of his game become natural i will believe, because hoping that he becomes this great pocket passer is just a ridiculous waste of talent.
the biggest difference between Luck and tannehill [ and its substantial} is the running element of qb'ing, its a huge part of his teams success, same with Wilson, and they're successful because they know how and when to do it..ryan hasn't figured it out yet.
im not basing my evaluation against luck or Wilson, its simply about, when will he get it, cause if he thinks its all about just staying in the pocket, I don't think the pocket game of his is good enough to win a championship...hes going to need to make plays with his feet.
There's no question, in my mind, that his line improved. Through the first two games, they were constantly shuffling his line. There were times where it was like a line change in hockey during the game. I remember specifically talking to a guy in my church who's a huge Pats fan, after their second game, and he was talking about Brady might be done, and I told him to wait to judge until the line solidified. As to Tannehill running, I still question how much of that is on the coaching. I know you have the position that Tannehill should run regardless of the coaching, but I don't. If they've been telling him not to run, but to continue through progressions, then we have a different issue...but at same time, I think it's good that he's learned to not depend on running.
I'd say pocket presence in general. You don't have to run to avoid some of the sacks I'd pin more on Tannehill than the line. Marino was an expert at taking that one little step to buy himself some time, and Brady does that too. But yes, he doesn't have a good sense of when to take off, and like resnor said I think a good part of that is coaching, but the coaches were right in forcing him to learn how to be a pocket passer first. This year better show some improvement in that department (he's gotten better though, so I think he'll show that improvement). Oh.. regarding Luck specifically.. one thing hard to emulate with him is how hard he is to take down. He and Roethlisberger...
I still have a hard time pinning more of the sacks on Tannehill than the line. It's not like most of those sacks could have been avoided by using the little shuffles Marino used. Marino actually had a pocket to operate in, so the shuffle was useful. Tannehill didn't really have a pocket on many of those sacks. I've said a million times, but when teams could rush 4 guys, and get pressure from multiple directions, I'm not putting the blame for the sacks on Tannehill. Now, that in no way means that there weren't some sacks that Tannehill took where he could have thrown it away or run, because there were. But we should be careful not to let those few instances color or view of what was actually occurring most of the time.
Like I said in post #45, the majority is on the line. But there are some (enough really) examples where I keep thinking why does Tannehill just stay at the same location in the pocket THAT long, and why does he not feel the pressure. But yes, the majority of the blame is on the line.
I was really, really hoping that the Pats trading away their best O lineman at the start of the year was going to bite him in the butt. Alas, no dice. We lose our best O lineman mid season and the O line goes to crap.
its not about depending on the run, its an awareness of when to...and its incredibly valuable if you have the skill set to do it, if your ignoring it and not engaging it its a waste. I look at it as a whole element of his game that is missing.. would steve young be in the hall of fame?, would he of been mvp, would they have won a championship if he was a pocket passer?
we just disagree on the talent of the line exponentially improving..brady was brady..it was just a matter of time that he adjusted to what he had to do.
DJ, did you watch the first couple games for the Pats? It's not a talent question. Olines have to gel. There was no consistency the first couple games, and the line was terrible. I guess you can say that it was Brady adjusting, but it just so happened to coincide with his line straightening out and solidifying.
ya'll blow off the element for which I'm talking about like its not a big deal, its a very big deal and he needs to figure it out like first game of the season..
every line gets better after the first few games..especially one who loses an all pro guard in the process..
im not trying to rag on ryan I'm just pissed off he doesn't understand how to attack a defense using his whole skill set..its ridiculous.
I don't think knowing when to run is a bigger deal than having better pocket awareness in cases where you wouldn't end up running. Creating a little extra time to scan the field with better pocket awareness can help as much as having a better O-line or having a better running game or having a QB that's a running threat. Hard to belittle any of those or put any of those things as clearly more important than the other.
how bout this, he's poor at both..and if he's poor at manipulating the pocket, then all the more reason to use your damn legs to tuck it and run for yardage, can't we just call it like we see it, your a smart dude, res, your smart, when you have these type of athletic traits as a qb and your just trying to win from within the pocket..its stupid imo.
Yeah, he's poor at both. That's what I was saying in the post you quoted, where I said it's better to just say his pocket presence in general isn't good.
I'd say he's poor at scrambling, although I think much of that is on the coaches Pretty difficult to judge "pocket presence" when he didn't have a good pocket to work out of. I saw Tannehill try to do stuff like climb the pocket when pressure came from the outside, only to get smashed by defenders who had pushed the center of the line back.
i think tannehill has good pocket presence. he feels the pressure pretty well. you can see that by how little he fumbled or got picked due to pressure. he was very aware from what direction the pressure was coming from. that's pocket presence. he's fine moving up in the pocket or side to side when the pressure is from one direction. what he lacks is that backward burst that a few QBs have where they can escape pressure from the middle by bursting backwards and then to a side. That's not a negative to me. very few QBs have that
Agreed. Some are understandably frustrated bc he should be better given his physical traits but on the whole his ability to deal w pressure is no worse than the average QB. RT def takes some unnecessary sacks but h doesn't panic and throw ill advised passes, which is worse. Nor does he get shell shocked and rush/disregard his progressions when under consistent pressure the way many QBs, even the best ones, do. I dont see him ever becoming a Luck, Ben, RW type pocket magician but he's plenty good enough to be a very effective QB and with a solid OL and run game his deficiencies in pocket awareness will be a more of a small nuisance than a real problem.
But I never said anything about the level of play that he needs to get to, all I said was that he will get better next season in regards to the deep ball just by having the weapons we now have. Now, will that be enough to win a championship? I don't know, for all we know, maybe next season he'll turn into Aaron Rodgers, or maybe he'll regress... it's something we can't accurately predict right now, we can only think about how much better he will get based on his yearly improvement, which by all acounts, is pointing up.
I don't know how you can watch Tannehill and think his pocket presence is consistently good on a play-to-play, week-to-week basis. It's never been a strength of his. But whatever, I guess that's in the past; we all hope he looks comfortable maneuvering the pocket this year. Bill Lazor is the #1 reason I'm optimistic about the passing game and offense in general. New WRs (to system, team, League, QB, whatever), and a new TE with health questions - these things don't have me super hyped. My expectations for them to drastically change our QB aren't that high. Our vertically-challenged offense got what was supposed to be a perfect cure in Mike Wallace, and we saw how that went. New (unknown, unfamiliar) targets on the outside can take time, particularly with a QB who has shown a heavy tendency to lean on his slot guys as opposed to throwing proficiently to all the routes on the perimeter (Tannehill's slot receivers have always seen better production). But what I know we have is one of the better up-and-coming OCs in the League who will be in year 2. He designs things to mitigate Tannehill's weaknesses, and hopefully Tannehill's chronically low YPA is the next item on his list. The fact that we ended up with this guy at OC is pretty exciting.
It'll be interesting to see how Lazor adjusts his offense to the new personnel. I expect to see more commitment to the run game, and play action off of it, than we saw last season when Lamar Miller was the only reliable back. As gifted as Wallace is down the field it was a constant struggle to get him to him involved within the natural flow of the offense. This year's group will be more adept in executing the concepts that Philbin, a stickler for precision route running and route adjustment, prefers to utilize.
hes not fine moving side to side he's not fine manuevring within the pocket to find a platform..having 100 sacks in 2 seasons is not an endorsement that he has good pocket presence.to say that he has good pocket presence would be misleading.. i don't care if he has poor pocket presence, ill live with it, at least threaten the defense 2 or 3 times a game by seeing a lane and purposely run for a first down...literally what I'm suggesting is even though a pass play might be called, have it in your mind that you are going to run for yardage, punish the defense, set them up to exploit them later, make them defend your entire skill set, right now they KNOW your going to sit in the pocket for christ sakes, then after that maybe you can then start to find that line of knowing when to stay or when to run for yardage..right now he isn't doing either..its called smart qb'ing.
i agree with that..didnt say he won't improve, said will he improve enough to lead to a team to championship caliber level of football..
i can live with some weaknesses, poor deep ball, poor pocket maneuverability, lack of touch on certain throws, what i won't accept is a qb with athletic traits like this who decides to sit and beat an opponent just from the pocket.
When teams could rush 4 and get pressure from multiple places in under 3 seconds, I think it's safe to say there wasn't much of a pocket.
Because that happened every play....no one is ever going to label you objective when you spew this stuff consistently
