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1 or the other...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by muskrat21, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    would be funny if Ross only gets rid of Tannenbaum, we dont draft a QB but instead offensive and defensive linemen, and the team stays healthy for the first time in four years and we make the playoffs. What does Ross do then
     
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  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Basing our decisions for next season on the first three games of the season is insane though.

    I get the allure - we were playing fairly well, and had everyone healthy. However, the first few games of any season are always the least indicative of future performance than anything else. Plus, if we want to do things like blame injuries for THill being a ****ty QB or Gase being a ****ty coach, then we can do things like blaming ****ty competition. We beat a similarly mediocre Titans team in like a 14 hour marathon of a non-game. We beat the Jests who are garbage. And we beat the Raiders making a cross country trip while openly tanking for their Vegas move. No way we let those three games be the main factor in any decision.
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying to make them the main focus- but our "starting team" is 3-0 this year. What does that mean? Maybe nothing, maybe everything. We have no idea. It just sucks we lost so many players so fast early on that we don't have more data to know how good/bad we may be healthy.

    As a fan though, I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid and say that this could have been our year. That doesn't make it any easier on Ross, but I'm sure it's a factor in the back of his mind anyway.
     
  4. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    That would be a tough season (2 wins), but that also means you get first pick of the QBs in the 2020 draft. That is a real chance to find a franchise QB. That rookie QB would also get at least 3 seasons even if they turned out to be a bust. At that point, you draft another QB and try again.

    As for RT and his contract? He has zero incentive to cut Miami any breaks -especially since they'd use the money to bring in competition for him.
     
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  5. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of people on this board have their heart in the right place. Undoubtedly, the Dolphins did RT dirty. During his entire tenure in Miami, he had a subpar offensive line. When his line has been good, he has looked pretty solid, and when the line let him down, well... we all saw the Vikings' game

    On the same note, Gase has been hit heavily by the injury big over the course of his coaching career. Losing RT definitely put his vision of the Dolphins in limbo, and in many ways, last season was a lost season.

    But here is the thing, at this time, it is not about being fair. It is about making the big boy decisions.

    Ryan Tannehill is 30. He is no longer a spring chicken. When we first drafted him, we could envision him playing a decade for this team, but now, you gotta wonder, "How many more good years does he have left?" Sure the Breeses and Bradys of the world can last till 40, but I never thought RT was cut from that cloth. In all honesty, even if he played out his contract, I don't think I would feel too comfortable extending him much beyond those two years. It feels like the timing is right to let RT go in a different direction.

    Gase and Tannehill seem to both be victim of timing. Now feels like the time to work to get younger and by doing that, we need to get the bad contracts off of our books, take whatever cap hit is necessary, and get a QB of the future.

    So let's look at Gase's situation. If Gase sticks around, he will have to field a team that needs major overhaul, in all likelihood is much younger, and start a new/rookie QB. Just looking at the team we need to field, it just feels like a 6 or 7 win team. As one poster called it, a step back to move forward. Undoubtedly, this would probably seal Gase's fate. Gase would unfortunately be put in the position where he would be selecting the QB of the future, and be in a nearly impossible situation to keep his job beyond his first year with the new QB.

    If this is the reality of the situation, maybe he should not be choosing the QB of the future. Let a new guy come in, let him choose the guy he will groom, and give him four years to prove himself.

    Now, people with solid analytical skills would say, "You would give the new guy four years, but only give Gase three years." I would say, "It is completely unfair." Gase, like Tannehill, is a victim of bad timing.

    Who knows, maybe a fresh start would be better for the Dolphins, Gase, and Tannehill.

    Gase can go after the Browns job that we all know that he would love to have.
    Tannehill could use a change of scenery. Perhaps he can find a solid o-line to prove himself.
    The Dolphins could undergo a youth movement and look to have a young, solid roster when Brady retires.
     
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  6. MediocrityLivesOn

    MediocrityLivesOn Member

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    Wake me up whe it's the 2020 season. We are going nowhere in 2019.
     
  7. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I say we give Tanne another 7 years and then we'll see.
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Great post....a lot of insights there and level thinking. I think it's almost a guarantee that Gase is a head coach somewhere next year since he'd likely be the top name to become available. The problem is....who do we replace him with? I keep coming back to that argument that I'm fine with cutting Tannehill, Gase, Wake or whatever name you want to throw out there, but they need to at least match the current lineup's potential unless we're playing "Suck for Luck II".

    I mean, if there is a true franchise QB on the horizon for 2020 then I could stomach a 2-14 season.

    But like you said, do you want Gase bringing in a 1-year stop gap and hoping we suck enough to fire everyone after 2019? That gives a new coach his pick of QB's in 2020....it's a pretty darn bold strategy though. If that's the plan, then I think we have to keep Gase 1 more season and start Fales, Falk or someone young. You'd also cut Tannehill because he's good for 8+ wins and that messes everything up.

    Let's follow that logic though- where do you go from there? Trade Reshad Jones for a 2nd or 3rd round pick? Maybe McDonald and Wake for a 3rd or 4th each? If you're going that route then you might as well load up on picks, get rid of the aging talent and start the youth movement now. Parker? Bye Felicia! Stills? Maybe, maybe not.

    Fitzpatrick or Howard? If there's a 1st in 2020 in the conversation, then have them pack their bags. It would freaking kill me to see one of them go but if we're going to play the game, we have to play it right.

    My point here is that if 2020 is really the long-term goal, then we can't let Tannehill, Howard, Wilson or a few other names throw a wrench in the works. We'd literally have to do some house cleaning and let some talented people walk out the door....likely for less than they're worth. I just don't know if Ross has that kind of move in him.
     
  9. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    Ross should talk to Irsay and see what he thinks.
     
  10. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, there is a lot to digest here. If things were up to me, this would be my plan:

    #1 - Fire Gase/Tannenbaum/Probably Grier too

    #2 - Get bad contracts off the books.
    You spoke specifically about Jones. The Minkah pick was such a Dolphins' move. He is one of the best picks we've made in awhile, and we drafted him without having a position in mind for him. Interestingly enough, I think he is a far better nickel back than a safety. I love having him line up at the line. He is great helping out on the run game; however, we have Bobby McCain who is getting paid a lot and a solid nickel back. Because of that, I think putting Minkah at safety makes sense, and I would look to acquire picks for Jones. TJ McDonald is "enough." He is young enough, good enough, and has a manageable enough contract to keep around. I love the back end of our defense. Between Howard, Minkah, Bobby McCain, and TJ, we have a lot of good young talent that should be good for awhile.

    Wake is a free agent and a legacy player. I could understand the pros and cons of both keeping him and letting him go.

    Stills, despite being in the league forever, is still pretty young. He is probably overpaid. I could go either way with keeping or trading him. If I got a solid offer, I'd pull the trigger.

    #3 - Sign Teddy Bridgewater to a 3 year deal. This is an oddly specific, but integral part of my plan. Prior to his gruesome injury, he was an ascending player. In the preseason (take it for what it's worth), he looked pretty solid. My point is, with Teddy, there is a decent amount of upside. Maybe we get lucky, and he is a franchise QB. At least he gives us flexibility. I am truly afraid that the Dolphins will make a desperation play in this year's draft for an overrated QB. With Teddy on the roster, it allows the entire franchise to be patient. Even if we do draft a QB this year, there would be significantly less pressure to play him right away. This part of the plan probably involves us waiting till 2020 or 2021 to draft a QB depending on Teddy's play.

    #4 - The draft - We need to have a flexibility of mind on draft day. This is where my inclination of Suck for Luck 2.0 goes to the wayside. I don't like fielding an intentionally bad roster. There is a lot of ways that could blow up in your face. I really like the Buffalo Bills' model. If possible, I would love to move back in the first round and pick up another pick in 2020. This could be our ammo to move up and get our guy in 2019 if need be. This coincides with the rebuild process. By moving back, getting a late 1st and a 2020 pick, we can use that late pick to really solidify our offensive line. If we build a solid line, Teddy could thrive, and if Teddy is successful in 2019 and we have two 1sts in 2020, that is a high quality problem to have. That could turbo charge our rebuild.

    Again, I mentioned flexibility of mind. If a blue chip player is available a la Minkah, I think we take him. That would involve us likely packaging a 2020 and 2021 next year to move up UNLESS Teddy is playing solid ball (See the importance of TB in this plan.).

    #5 - Our new core. We will build our roster around Tunsil, Minkah, Howard (extend him), and the big decision will be James. We will probably have to overpay to get him, but creating another hole on the o-line seems like a bad move to me. I would try my best to get him under contract.

    #6 - Free agency - No longer are we giving players early retirement checks. We aren't signing any older vets. We need to get better on the trenches. I believe in addressing the o-line early and often. We need to have a "never again" approach to the line. It must be a continuous priority. We need to also bring in guys that specialize in stopping the run.

    Okay, finally you asked the question, if you fire Gase, who are you going to hire? You are asking the right question, and I have plenty of answers for you.

    Best case scenario - Jim Harbaugh, Bruce Arians - Call these guys and make them tell you "no."

    Maybe they get fired -
    Mike Tomlin - If he got fired, slide him up to a best case scenario guy.
    Jay Gruden - He would be a sneaky good hire. No one has been decimated with injuries worse than Jay. If you watch the Skins play, they move the ball pretty well with guys literally off the street. He is a solid play caller. He is better than his record indicates.
    Marvin Lewis - Before you yell, "hell no," wait. First of all, he would not be my first option, but he deserves a look. Just go back and look at the Bengals' draft classes. His players almost always develop. i think Cincy itself is not an ideal place to go, and the Bengal have struggled to acquire big name free agent talent. I don't think he would have this problem in Miami. He really is not a bad fallback option.
    Greg Williams - I know he had the bullygate scandal, but he has done a great job in Cleveland since taking over. Freddie Kitchens seems to be the hot name, but let's give credit where it's due.

    It may cost you -
    John Harbaugh - He has been solid for a long, long time. Worth a consideration.

    Up and comers -
    Eric Bieniemy - It might be a year early. He has only been an o-coordinator for a year, but I really respect the Andy Reid coaching tree.
    Dan Campbell - 2015 may have been too soon for him, but spending successful time under Sean Payton and working with Teddy Bridgewater (again the plan) warrants a second look.

    The fallback -
    Chuck Pagano - He was victim to the Andrew Luck lost years and did an admirable job. Many attribute his failure to his GM, and I tend to agree the cupboard was empty when he was there. His teams played inspired ball for him.

    In general, I think there are plenty of options to replace Gase, and I am not at all worried about that.
     
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  11. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Jim Harbaugh, Bruce Arians, and Jay Gruden would be the more interesting names to me from what you listed. I'm not so sure about handing Teddy a three year deal though. I'd rather see a one year 'prove it' deal for him.

    As for the secondary, we still need a solid #2 CB, but I agree with your plan for letting the older vets go, but I'd bring Wake back as a pass rush specialist for the right money.
     
  12. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I would say Burke is an adequate defensive coordinator, but isn't a difference maker. Does anyone want him back? Sometimes a fresh start can be good for everyone and revitalise the team. To me it's all about chemistry and not only about talent. Especially when the talent is comparable.
     
  13. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    Lamar miller has the 2nd most yards from scrimmage of any player since 2014... idk if you want to use him as an example.....
     
  14. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I think he is happily retired, but I would give my left nut if we could sign Arians!!
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So...we should pick up Bridgewater, and solidify our line so that Bridgewater can be successful?

    I mean, if that's the plan, why not just add oline and roll with what we got? LOL
     
  16. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    A billionaire is "dumb as rocks". LOL, hahaha. Ok, sure.
     
  17. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Football isn't how Ross made his money so there's no reason to think his success in real estate suggests he has better than average decision-making ability in football operations. Intelligence comes in many forms, and Ross' record suggests he's no better than average when it comes to putting a good football team together.
     
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  18. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    He opened his wallet and put people in place to build a solid program. They failed. It's hardly Ross's fault because if the FO did a better job Ross's decisions to hire them would look fine. H.C.'s and managers in sports get fired for ineptitude frequently, is it always the owners fault.?
     
  19. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    He chose the people, probably after hiring consultants. And the people he chose on the football side of things haven't proven to be good choices, as evidenced by our mediocre record and that he fired Sparano and Philbin. There's no evidence Ross is smart when it comes to hiring the right people to run the football side of things. Opening his wallet doesn't matter from that perspective.
     
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  20. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    When GM's or any other front office member fails is it always the owners fault? If that's the case there are a lot of " dumb as rocks" owners in professional sports.
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    If it happens repeatedly yes. And yeah there are a lot of owners that haven't shown they know how to choose the right people to build a successful football (or sports) team. So far Ross is one of them. I hope that changes soon.
     
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  22. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    I disagree Ross is to blame for the teams mediocrity/ineptitude. If he was the type of owner who accepted losing and thought of it as an eventual write off that's one thing. But, he doesn't strike me as an owner who doesn't care about winning.
     
  23. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Just because you care and want to win doesn't mean you possess the ability to. We're talking about ability not desire.
     
  24. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Would you have liked Harbaugh over Gase ? So did Ross.

    He put people in place that didn't do their job. I can't get on board with blaming Ross ( or any other owner for that matter) for that.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Yeah I'd love him. But it's not just a question of who you'd prefer. If you're the owner you have to close the deal and get those guys.
     
  26. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    He tried and for whatever reason Harbaugh declined. Not for lack of trying though. For arguements sake if Ross landed Harbaugh and he failed would you still blame Ross for the decision to hire someone who failed?
     
  27. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Yup. But "ability" isn't about trying per se. It's about delivering.
     
  28. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    You mean like kidnapping Harbaugh instead of taking no for an answer.? Like I mentioned above, if Ross was able to land Harbaugh and he failed to get the job done as HC for the Dolphins would you blame Ross for the hire?
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Yeah you're not getting it. "Ability" isn't about hypotheticals. It's about what you actually accomplish. So far Ross is a failure in that regard. He has yet another chance this offseason to show he's learned something about how to build a good football team. Not expecting much based on his previous moves, but I'll hope for the best.
     
  30. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Ross isn't afraid to spend money .The problem is he can't hire the right people and at what point does he share the blame?
     
  31. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    I'm not saying Ross made all the perfect moves but to suggest he is "dumb as rocks" is ridiculous. I've read people here saying Ross is an idiot for hiring Gase. Why would that be? Its statements like that that make me shake my head. What genius knew that Gase would not be very successful as a HC thus far?
     
  32. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    So explain ross' hiring of Tannenbaum. What Mike Tbaum did to us during his stay, he did to the stinking jest. And yet that didn't stop ross from giving him the keys. Why? What was it about Tbaum's successful jest past? Ross was hellbent on bringing in former nyj people. He just "knew" the league would award him the nyj franchise in 2000, but ross lost out to W.Johnson. imo ross likes the illusion that he wants to win.
     

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