i think welker is a product of a system. he was always the same player here as NE.....but never close to the same production....he had 1 receiving td in miami. welker is always covered by a lb or the #2 corner....not to mention the spread offense hes in. of course his numbers will be bloated there. and imo edelmans production in limited time (a 7th round rookie quarterback from kent state) as a WR proves that.
i think White was picked for 2 reasons: improve the WC ..... by putting a QB at the helm, so you would have to respect a passing option vice just the run by RB .... Parcells seemed to appreciate the mobile QB (Carter) from his tenure in DAL in '03-'04 ... so PW was a venture into that arena .... giving another dimension to the offense. i do believe White's drafting was a mechanism to improve the dimensions of the offense - the problem is that he was no where near ready to contribute this year .... i still don't believe we will ever see him as a WR, except possibly during the WC in some sets. i also don't believe that he was ever viewed as 'competition' for Henne .... just a dimension that Henne doesn't have. i applaud the idea and effort ..... but like most - i am not at all convinced that we will see the intended value as a QB on this team.
Calm down. I haven't accused you of anything, nor did I even quote you in the post. I was speaking to a general criticism that Welker gets. My opinion is that he's a very quick player who runs very good routes and consistently gets yards after the catch. Always falls forward. Would he be as effective if he traded positions with Randy Moss? Of course not. Is Justin Smiley the greatest inline blocker? No, but he's a fantastic pulling guard. Apples and oranges, but I think we're all on the same page. One thing to note. Welker operates in a place where a lot of good receivers don't like to go; the middle of the field. Dude takes a lot of hits.
Why? We have Bess, and Bess can play on the outside a bit as well. What we really could have used is Moss, the guy who caught for almost as many yards as Welker while putting up over 3 times the touchdowns.
i agree with all of this. i just dont think he'd be as productive here or many other places as he is in NE with their spread and brady/moss combo
I agree with all this. I'm sorry for jumping the gun, but it seemed like just because I said Welker was overrated that I must think he's a scrub.
But that doesn't take away the fact that Welker is an absolute perfect fit for that offense and to be Brady's go to guy....he stepped in and right away that offense went from great to prolific.
Well, Stitches, I took your comments about the Pats system to be referring to Welker benefitting from Moss. My bad if I misunderstood. That being said, the Pats didn't put this system in place when they got Moss. They were doing it with Gaffney, Brown, Branch, and other average/good receivers. Welker woild have been a godsend for for QB's the last two seasons. Is there a receiver better suited for Pennington's style of play? Do you think Henne would have LOVED to have had Welker on the field for him this year? Let's not pretend that Bess or Cammy can do the things that Welker does, as well as Welker does them. Granted, Welker is linited physically as compared to Moss, or Fitz, or Cpavin Johnson tyoe receivers...but I'd put Welker in the top 20 for receivers. Posted via Mobile Device
Disagree. Welker routinelu draws double coverage. In the second Pats/Jets game, he had Revis on him with another defender helping, from time to time. Bess isn't even close to as good as Welker. Welker catches everything, and almost never fumbles. Watch Welker on those quick screens the Pats run to him, and watch Bess on them...not even close. Posted via Mobile Device
I don't see anything in our offense that would make Welker so much more valuable or useful than Bess or Cam given each player's skills and abilities. Putting Welker as the lone WR in a 2TE set really wouldn't help Henne at all. And I would be hard pressed to put Welker in the top 20 WRs unless we were talking fantasy rankings.
I remember the Buffalo comeback game in 2005 in particular -- where Chambers had 238 yards -- when he had one called back. Welker made a sensational leaping catch in the back of the endzone between two defenders for what would have been the win. Two plays later, Chambers wins the game. I always believed he was gonna be special, but that affirmed it. That was the first year he actually got to play receiver for us. He had only 29 catches with Gus Frerotte at QB. I think he clearly got better every year in Miami. But even if he was the same guy, what does that say about us? Welker emerged during the 6-10 season of Culpepper-Harrington. And you know what? He led the team in receptions. Just like he does every year in New England. I think it was pretty clear that he was going to flourish in that Patriots system. It's perfect for his skill set. IMO it's not about touchdowns with Welker. He's a guy that does his work between the 20's (well, the 10's probably). OT: I think not having to return kickoffs....and less punts....helps as well. Welker returned 293 punts and kickoffs for us in three seasons. He has 86 in the same period of time up there.
Bess fumbled one more time than Welker this year (not counting punt returns) and caught more passes for more yards and more touchdowns than Welker's best year with this team. He also had a higher first down % than Welker. Just because we don't run WR screens as well as the Pats doesn't mean that Bess is worse than Welker.
He would have had as much production here if we would have thrown him the ball. A long time ago I did a projection that if we threw the ball to Welker as much as we threw at Chambers that Welker would have had over 1000 yard seasons here. I don't remember the exact numbers but many people laughed at it at the time because everyone thought we got a steal in getting a second for Wes. I'll go look and see if I can dig up that post.
Yeah, except you forgot to add that part that he really didnt want to play for us but indeed the Patriots Do we really have people saying that Welker demands as much attention as Randy Moss? You have absolutely got to be kidding me...right? No?
I agree that Bess seems a bit better on the outside. But in our ideal receiving corps, he plays the same position as Welker. And I don't think he's as good. Welker is quicker and gets more YAC. While neither is great, Welker is unquestionably the better punt returner. Hell, it could be argued that he's better than Ginn on both return units. Before you jump down my throat , my position is that Welker has proven he can do more with less. He's got good vision and good enough quicks to get thru some garbage and pick up some yardage. Ginn needs open field and a head of steam. Obviously when those two things are present, you'd want a sprinter like Ginn. Again, not trying to turn this into a Ginn debate. Just pointing out another troublesome area of our team where Welker would have value to us. I think most receivers wouldn't be as productive as they would be in NE with that personnel and that system.
Maybe not but Welker probably gets more YAC than our entire WR unit......I'd say that alone makes him better than Bess.
We did get a steal (or at least fair value). Just so happened that the trade benefited both teams (we just didn't end up hitting well enough on the draft pick).
Talk to me when Bess starts putting up numbers like Welker. In our offense, predicated more on short passing, Bess should put up numbers like Welker...except Bess isn't as fast and can't make guys miss like Welker. For what it's worth, Welker almost DOUBLED Bess' production THIS YEAR, even while missing THREE GAMES. Not to mention, Welkers final year in Miami he had like 680 yards, with Harrington, I think, or was it Culpepper and Lemon, throwing him the ball, while Bess had Henne this year, and Bess had Henne. Oh, and Welker almost doubled Bess' first downs this year. Posted via Mobile Device
Yeah, the guy who scored 15 touchdowns over the past three years is really the guy teams are worried about, not the guy who scored 47 during that same timeframe. Oh, Moss still caught for more yards as well.
We would had to hit on one hell of a player with that draft pick, to make it worth aiding the Pats in making their offense prolific that year and just dangerous on a regular basis.
Moss stepped in right away too (they were acquired in the same offseason) and they (collectively, not like Welker alone put them over the top) became prolific. All Moss did was catch 98 for 1493, 74 FDs, and 23 TDs.
It's just silly to argue that Welker wouldn't have made our offense more potent, and even sillier to still cling to the idea that we stole draft picks from the Pats for Welker. Welker may not be physically able to do what Moss does, but if teams decide not to double Welker, he kills them. Actually, he kills them even if be does get doubled, hence going off for almost 200 yards in the second Pats/Jets game. Posted via Mobile Device
Again, Welker alone didn't make their offense prolific. At the time, getting a very good/above average starter was more than fair (we just didn't get that). Welker never would put up pro bowl numbers for us.
I'll get back to you in a second once I'm done doing the math. Oh, and Muck, I didn't forget about you - Welker is certainly the better punt returner. Then again, what does that say about our special teams in general when Bess is the best we've got doing it? Or at least, the only guy that they feel comfortable having in there.
This stuff gets way overblown IMO and frankly is irrelevant to me. That guy played his *** off for this team. Dan Marino used to voice similar frustrations to the beat writers when the Bills were beating us up in the early '90s. Hell, he wanted out in the late '80s when things were really tanking. But if we really over-analyze it, what happened the year after Welker left? The franchise sunk into dysfunction and 1-15. That didn't happen just because Cam Cameron was hired. That was already in the works. Saban knew it. That's why his sorry butt left. The offense was 29th overall in his last year. Meanwhile New England was New England, 12-4 and just lost a barn burner AFC title game to Indy for what was the 'real' Super Bowl. If I were a player, I know which situation I'd choose. You think Welker would want out of Parcells and Sparano's Dolphins? I don't. OT: you guys are making it hard for me to watch the Fiesta Bowl. My Tivo cache is gonna fill up!
I certainly agree with you there. Just comparing the two guys. We could have done worse than Welker the past few years. Just stinks we burned that #2.
I don't think that matters. He'd certainly get as many snaps as anyone. Unless they had some kind of run-in, I don't think he'd have any problem fitting in here. Sparano's favorite player is Patrick Cobbs. Welker is that kind of player. Works hard, tough, does a lot of jobs (remember when he kicked for us?) and does them very well.
I don't have the full numbers because the sites haven't updated yet, but I'll give it a shot based on last week's numbers. Just based on targets alone, and no other factors (like having Brady or Moss on a team) if Bess was targeted as many times as Welker, he would have put up 1080 yards and an absolutely freaking stupid 96 first downs while scoring the same amount of touchdowns as Welker. 300 yards of offense difference yes, but also 25 first downs in Bess' favor. Depending on how you want to score it, I'd put that as comparable, and that's with Bess having Henne, not Brady throwing him the ball.
Here are the numbers this was from way back in 2006 took awhile to find the post probably would have been quicker to do the math again Anyway it's was a comparison of Welker and Chambers at the time and was extrapolated yardage he would have had had we thrown the ball to him as many times as we did Chambers: Chambers 2005: 166 Passes 1118 Yards Welker 2005: 52 Passes 434 Yards Welker with 166 Passes 1385 Yards Chambers 2006: 153 Passes 677 Yards Welker 2006: 100 Passes 687 Yards Welker with 153 Passes 1051 Yards Welker with 166 Passes 1140 Yards Those aren't receptions they are pass attempts and based on completion percentage the numbers we're extrapolated. It seems to be fairly accurate with the numbers Welker is putting up currently in NE. He always did produce for us, the problem was more with the coaching staff always trying to find "ways to get Chambers the ball more" at the expense of the real talent we had on the team.
At least we got Hartline for Satele That lessens the blow. Now, as far as having the oft-injured Groves getting paid millions while his backups are pretty freaking capable as well, that's another thread.
Ok fine...Welker's great, he sucks....whatever...lol After all the time I've spent screaming at a wall saying we should move White to WR, I finally get a little ground swell of support going and you guys turn it into a Wes Welker thread I just can't win
Absolutely. I mean, from everything I heard, the Pats took Edelman after Pat White. That they might have actually been targeting White all along, which is why Miami jumped and reached for White. If that was the case, then Edelman might be doing exactly what Pat White was intended to do in a Pats uni. For what its worth, Pat White is just as much of an athlete as this kid, even better. I want to see him used in that same fashion.
Yes Welker's good but he is definitely is overrated. I live in New England and there are a ton of people up here who think that Welker is the best wide receiver on the Patriots which is ridiculous.
Are you factoring in Welker missing three games? You could add another 300-400 yards receiving by Welker, and another 15 first downs. That would give Wes 1600-1700 yards and 86 first downs. So, the yardage difference is pretty significant. Posted via Mobile Device
As a teammate and a player, hands down, yes he is. As a playmaker? No, he's not. Posted via Mobile Device
Just saw on NFL Network, Welker finished 1st in Receptions this year, 2nd in YAC and 2nd in total yards of the whole league. Just looked up the record on NFL.com and he's 2nd place for receptions in a season in the History of the NFL behind Marvin Harrison, He is ahead of the likes of Jerry Rice and Cris Carter... http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/receiving Yep he's overrated alright
As passing number continue to inflate, receiving numbers do as well. Anyone who would take Welker over Jerry Rice or Marvin Harrison doesn't understand the concept of a system player. Welker's a good player, but the important thing is that he's the perfect player for the system he's in. It just so happens that many think his position in that system is easier to be successful at than others systems, so the results are easier to replicate with another player. That makes the one player (Welker) less valuable.
