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Phins come clean: You desperately need top wideout

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ATVZ400, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    No.....I think you'll be seeing more and more of them as Ginn is gradually phased out
     
  2. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Everything that goes against your opinion is an excuse...
     
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  3. mroz

    mroz Fix the OL Club Member

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    and a TE
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Are you saying that Ginn should be a red zone threat? He's not built to be a red zone threat. Pennington played a ball control game, and threw short passes. That is why Ginn didn't have many td's. It's not an excuse, it's simply the truth. You want to ignore that Ginn was running the deep routes, thereby allowing Bess/Cam/Martin/Fasano to run the short routes that Pennington liked to throw. It makes perfect sense that in that system Ginn would not have been a td monster.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  5. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    it is what it is....

    Ya'll act as tho I stand on an island with these opinions. I don't, the same thing is being said all over. The fact is, most media and dolphin fans, have a very low opinion of Ginn.

    The only real evidence to back up ya'lls argument, is the rare times the guy has actually done anything in the past 36 games.

    Well he's in his 3rd year

    Pennington is gone

    We have a strong armed QB

    We're at the point where you would have to scrape the bottom of the excuse barrel to defend him any longer
     
  6. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Then why did we waste picks with Hartline and Turner? I'm confused.
     
  7. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well...

    First...let me say I am a big Ginn supporter.....but this is a problem for me. Its a problem because I can relate to EXACTLY what Sparano was upset about.....

    Not sure how many of you have played Keeper before in Soccer. I noticed I had started to get into a bad habit in practice and warm up...where I would not dive for a save that was obviously not goin in...or so it looked to me. So...it wasnt long before it became a habit. Its a repetitive thought where my mind said....eh..its not going in...dont dive. For me..the reason for not diving..is Im 36 and after warming up for 20 min diving at balls...it takes a toll on you..and I wanted to leave something for the game....

    No big deal right....until I noticed during games...when a shot came at me...if it looked like it was sailing left or right..or even way over...I didnt attack it like I used to....it was like I had already decided to save some..because it wasnt goin in anyways....until all of the sudden shots that looked like they wouldnt be close...starting getting the lower corners of the net....these are shots I used to be pretty good at stopping....but I had ruined my timing...when someone rips one from 15 yds...you dont have time to think....but I programed my mind TO THINK....it made me slower....

    The lesson is....not attacking every single ball that comes your way....becomes habitual....and its not an easy habit to break. The only way it becomes second nature..is to attack the ball 100% of the time...all the time..even in practice.

    If Ginn is doing this in practice....hes already developed this bad habit...and now hes thinking when a pass is on the way. Even if its a split second thought....its a thought that shouldnt be there. It should be impulsive to JUST ATTACK THE BALL.
     
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  8. NYFinFan

    NYFinFan Member

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    Ginn has been open on a number of deep plays this year, but the ball was overthrown mostly and just hasn't gotten to him. See what him and Henne can do for the rest of the season and if those plays start hitting this offense will really take off.
     
  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Hartline looks alright. Turner who knows? We carry five receivers. Its not as if we have to cut them to draft one playmaker
     
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  10. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    'go get the ball' is just one of the reasons most here still consider him soft ... he doesn't go get the ball - period. if he did, he would have caught one of those 2 TDs and won the game a few weeks ago. he needs to see the ball, and own it ... not complain that he isn't being hit in stride, or that he has to run a hook or come back to catch a pass; regardless of the QBs arm strength ...

    as i've said before, i just don't see him here beyond this contract - if he even makes that. i really had high hopes for Marion to take his place next year ... but the knee might make that unlikely.
     
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  11. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I guess Cammy's questionable state before the season prompted them to draft WR.

    Looking back though, with hindsight, the only opportune spot I can see last year to take a WR is with Pat White's pick. I don't want to open that can of worms though.

    Watching Britt and Masaquoi do well though sure doesn't help. :lol:

    I'd rather take one in FA. WRs in the draft are too frequently misses as opposed to hits.
     
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  12. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Exactly......Ginn's idea of extra effort means getting to the ground or sidelines to avoid contact as as fast as possible.
     
  13. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    Im beggining to question the coaches ,They have done nothing to address our Wr need in which is a position we desperatly need,now jets make a good move and were still left empty handed.

    Bill get off your @ss and make a deal ! :tantrum:
     
  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    me too. thats what i thought they would target. Although to be fair I wanted us to draft TE Cornelius Ingram :lol: Didnt realize his knee was so bad that he wouldnt go until the 5th :lol:
     
  15. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    if they dont get a WR next year your complaints will have merit. This was the year of the CB. Cant do everything at once. Next year linebackers and a WR and then we finally have our complete team. After next year its just picking BPA and plugging leaks
     
  16. finz810

    finz810 Season Ticket Holder

    Imagine if Crabtree didnt just sign and he was available ahhh :p-----o (me drooling)lol
     
  17. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Funny, but Sparano said last year that they were going to limit his responsibilities to keep him fresh, infact Sparano talked about limiting his plays so he could play "really fast". I know I didn't imagine that.

    Maybe it was just the apologist fairy sprinkling apologist dust on my head? :confused2: :pity:
    And? Pennington couldn't throw downfield worth a damn, he was a dink and dunk QB, that isn't something new, we were telling that to Jet fans when he played in NY. Pennington at the end of his career wasn't the same QB at the start of his career, not that that version of Chad had a rocket for an arm, mind you. When your QB limits the field with his arm or decision making, the defense will play closer and tighter. Ginn is the only receiver that we have that can create separation with his speed, which WR do you propose the defense is going to key in on? Turner who is on the bench or the guy who might be a threat on the field?

    Funny that when we used that logic for Ronnie it was right on the money, when we use it for Ginn is't excuse making. Using your logic, we could completely ignore the play of an offensive line when talking about how many times a QB is sacked, and things like coverage sacks would be a thing of the past. After all, a sack is a sack, who cares how his supporting cast plays, right?

    If you aren't willing to understand how defenses play someone like Pennington and how that would impact a WR like Ginn or a RB like Ronnie, I don't know what to tell you.

    It's the same thread that gets batted around these forums every year, just insert a new player into the title. Over-reaction, unfortunately, is rampant among fanatics, which is where the word "fan" comes from. One needs to look no further than a game day thread to read things like this...

    "Oh come on! Allen SUCKS!"

    ---2 plays later---

    "WOOT!!! Allen is the man!"

    ---2 plays later---

    "WTF?! Why is he even on the team?"

    ---2 plays later---

    "Great game by Allen!"

    As someone who keeps a close eye on the game threads, I see it every week.
     
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  18. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    So he played exactly one game with a strong armed QB and that's enough to sum up his whole career? :lol:

    You seem to forget that many WR's have taken 2-3 years to reach their potential in an offense (and with players) who know how to take advantage of their talents. As someone pointed out last week, Roddy White took 4 years. Ginn has to change his game to suit the team because Penny can't throw for beans, he finally plays one game with a Qb who can throw downfield and we should write off Ginn and anyone who defends him is making excuses? :lol:
     
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  19. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    so i guess the 6 tds, 91 catches and 1000+ yards L. Coles had on the jets in 2006 with pennington was a result of penningtons dwindling career as well?

    (hell and in alot of peoples minds, coles aint that good of a WR either)
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ted Ginn will be a great Wr...:yes:

    Ted Ginn is a bust....:cry:

    Ted Ginn needs more time...:shifty:

    What is it about Wr in Miami that causes such angst? To me it begins with Anquan Boldin and sort of has dragged onwards by Chambers remaining chaste and never....quite....turning...the corner...and now continues with Teddy Ginn.

    I believe Sparano has marked Ginn for culling, just my .02, and oddly that will, imho, free Ted Ginn to play like he probably should be, Sparano should take off the bubble wrap and use him on ST and throw a couple of deep balls a game his way and be happy with that because that is about all Mr. Ginn appears capable of doing to help us win football games.

    Stop trying to reinvent the wheel vis a vis Ted Ginn, he is what he is.
     
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  21. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    Don't forget that disgusting trade of Ogulenleye for Booker :pity:

    That's where i think it began for me.

    In hindsight, it's not unexpected we haven't had a threatning wideout since Dan was our qb. Funny how that works.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    As opposed to Ginn going for 800 and two td's in his second year? It's not like Ginn was way off...especially considering he was getting his first real playing time. No one in here is saying that Ginn is elite. I just think that the Ginn bashers are cherry picking things to make Ginn seem like the worst reciver ever. He's not. I've had to read the same threads, but about Ronnie Brown, for his whole career. It really is frustrating. The threads about Ronnie were false, and I have a feeling that these threads about Ginn could be false to. However, even if they turn out to be true in a season or two, it doewn't make them true right now. Ginn is a decent player, who could be great for us, if he steps up. If he can't succeed with Henne throwing the ball (if Henne is any good) then I will agree with the bashers.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
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  23. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    so your comparing 50 less catches and 4 less tds? ok......
     
  24. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Considering Coles caught 53 of those passes when the ball was 1-10 yards in the air, I wouldn't take much from that. If they had Ginn run shorter routes last year (like what Bess and Cam did), then he would probably have similar numbers... A high percentage of Ginn's catches were where the ball was 11-20 yards in the air or 30+ yards in the air.

    Pennington in New York attacked the intermediate passing field moreso than us and was willing to take more chances back then... This is why he threw 16 interceptions in 2006 and only 7 interceptions in 2008.

    You are comparing a 7 year veteran (at that point) who had past experience catching passes from Pennington to a 2 year veteran who had no experience catching passes from Pennington... but let's just throw that out the window, tsk tsk.
     
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  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But a higher YPA ;)
     
  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Same exact things were said about Ronnie Brown. Injury prone. Can't be workhorse. No break away speed. Can't take over a game. Gets caught from behind. This was all said AFTER his 4th year here.
     
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  27. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Clearly people have the memory of an elephant because I remember A LOT of Ronnie Brown = BUST threads... A LOT.
     
  28. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    That's right, Padre...at this point, in his third season - the magical "coming out" season for WRs - Ginn is what he is.

    Make all the excuses you want, guys. He isn't getting any better from here.

    What you see now is what you're going to be seeing 5 years from now with Ginn, if he's still in the league.

    Just like what you saw with Chambers here is what you see in San Diego, despite having everything now that people said he needed to take the next step.

    Players have it or they don't; some people think it's necessary to wait for some players...well here he is, season 3 of Ted Ginn looks a lot like season 2, and season 1.

    And now that everyone is saying it, not just us "negative posters," what now?

    Does he need a different Quarterback? A different OC? Better players around him?

    Different color uniform?
     
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  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ronnie had already produced a 1,000 yd season and was leading the NFL in nearly everything when he was injured in 2007...

    Ted Ginn did lead the NFL in returns in 07...et ergo sum...Ted Ginn should be back on kick returns..
     
  30. DaFish

    DaFish Well-Known Member

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    At least Ronnie showed us a glimpse of what he could be.

    Ginn can run really fast and curls up like a pillbug when he is about to take a hit. I am sorry. I have just seen enough of Ginn. I don't think he is the answer at WR. Please don't take that the wrong way because I wish like hell he would prove me wrong. I just don't think thats going to happen. It's time to admit that Ted was a total waste of a #1 pick.
     
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  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yup, then he got injured. Injury prone!

    Nabo. How does season 2 look like season 1? Just curious.

    Vincent jackson mediocre first 3 years. 4th year he was good. 5th year he was great. Did you write him off year 3? Just asking.

    Just saying, I'm giving him all 3 years to prove something. Not say he gets 3 years then rag on him at the beginning of year 3.
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ginn will still be in the NFL 5 seasons from now, he dives like a Don King boxer, he knows how to preserve his body.


    To the larger point, T Ginn is the type of cat who will make some big plays, will catch 50 balls, and will for as long as he is in Miami attract "love'm/hate'm" reactions.



    I wouldn't compare those two players Nabo, Chambers was more of a Wr, Ginn is more of a weapon if he is allowed to play like one that is to say.

    So far Sparano has tried to make him into a "go get the ball" type of Wr and he just is not that guy, he is a nice Wr, and I think Sparano letting Ginn return a punt against the Bills was telling, Ginn wants to contribute, Sparano was willing to risk him on a punt return and he did a good job of it, ditto on the kickoff fake handoffs.


    Here we differ, I think Ginn has it, I just don't think he has it as a Wr only type of player, to me he could be Yamon Figurs but can play Wr like an average NFL wideout.

    Granted not the stuff of "9th overall selections" but we are 1-3, hopefully Sparano ain't to proud to put the ball in Ginn's hands out in space..


    1 game with Henne, he had 6 sacks and 3 fumbles, things could heat up in that direction over the course of the season.
     
  33. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    The infamous "3 year rule" is a theory, not an actual rule. Every player is different, some players adapt to NFL game speed quickly (right away) while others take a lot longer (3 to 4 sometimes 5 years). We have Ginn tied up for another 2-3 years, considering Ginn also had a learning disability on top of coming out of college very raw (it was pretty universal that people thought he should stick it out at OSU for one more season)... I think we should be more patient.

    We seen some flashes throughout Ronnie's career in seasons one through three... then he broke out with a Pro Bowl performance in season four. We've seen some flashes throughout Teddy's career thus far, we may as well give him a chance considering the amount of time on his contract. It's not like we have someone else on our roster with raw talent like him to replace him right away...
     
  34. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    ginns shown huge flashes just like ronnie, so you can stop with the overexaggerations.
     
  35. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Well first of all I went a little far in pushing the excuses label on you guys, I personally don't appreciate being called a "basher" or accused of complaining for kicks, while I'm actually taking the time to make a point......so I apologize for that.



    At the time he started having Ginn focus on WR, Teddy was pretty much a non factor on returns anyway. It wasn't like he was lighting it up last year. And pretty much anytime they've tried to re-introduce him as a returner, he's done nothing special. He pretty much played himself out of a position that was supposed to be his main strength, the reason for his draft stature.



    Absolutely agree that Penny was limited. If I had it my way Henne would have went into camp as the starter without a competition for the job. I appreciate Penny's service to us but I had seen enough.

    I also agree that having Henne at QB should improve the play and stat line for Ginn. But the thing is it should improve every receiver we have. I just don't see a very high ceiling for Teddy. He's just too limited

    I know Omar isn't some well respected football guru by any means...lol.....but hell, what he wrote could have been a comment he over heard at that practice. But what he said about Ginn's attempt at that ball and the coaches reaction? Dude that's dead on accurate......that's vintage Teddy Ginn. If there's one single facet he desperately needs to work on and improve at it's his effort in attacking the football. Not talking about buttin heads, just leave nothing on the field when he goes for the ball. Until he gets better at that he's just another complimentary WR.

    Those throws he was gettin from Penny were perfect for Ginn and personally I don't think he matches up that well with Henne.

    Behind the defense, near perfect throw in stride....Ginn's a one trick pony as far big plays in the passing game.


    Two diff players......Ronnie Brown accounted for over 2400 yds from the LOS in his first two seasons and was a monster his third year prior to injury. Like Ginn, he suffered from his draft position. Was he elite? and blah blah blah. Diff was, Ronnie Brown was drafted in a much weaker draft than Ginn.....Saban had no where else to go with his pick.

    My point is, with his play and production, Brown has been MUCH easier to make a case for and defend than Ginn. The knocks on him are something that been visual, they still are.


    It's like someone mentioned earlier.....if Revis shuts down Ginn, so what? we're used to him not being much of a factor. It's almost like they're wasting the best player on their defense. From Ginn I can see expecting a great play on occasion, using him on ST and on mis-direction stuff and getting some production. Not saying we can't find a way to get some value from him. But impact? How?....with what?..........his speed? Because at this point, that's really all he's excelled at is being fast.

    .

    lol.....hey I feel ya

    It's always been like that on all Fins forums.............most everybody is guilty to some degree of having gotten carried away at times. But not everyone is guilty of just looking for an argument for no reason. If someone has content to their posts and is keepin it civil other than the expected occasional jab, then it's a diff situation than what u described above.

    My opinion of Ginn isn't a grudge from his being drafted at #9 and it's not an over reaction to the Colts game and his play thus far this year...... it's my conclusion after having followed his play for 36 games.......and my opinion is that his position needs a serious upgrade. That the passing game will continue to suffer as long as Ted Ginn Jr is our go to guy and eating up the most snaps
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Is season 3 for Ginn over? Did I miss 12 games? He's had ONE GAME with Henne...a game that Henne had his own problems in. How many times THIS SEASON has Ginn been missed on easy td's? I can count four...overthrow by White, overthrow by Pennington, late throw by Pennington, and an overthrow by Henne. So, to act like Ginn hasn't suffered from having some poor play from his QB is ridiculous.

    There are still people on the board who think Brown is easily replaceable, and there will always be people who want Ginn gone. I don't think that Ginn is elite, I just think that people need to step back, and give the guy a chance.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I will say this about ST play...our unit was HORRIFIC last year. Ginn was getting hit behind the 20, routinely, last year. That's not his fault, and it makes it really hard to make plays when you have zero blocking. Not to mention, the times he DID get free, his plays were called back from boneheaded penalties that usually occured behind Ginn, or on the other side of the field. Ginn got blamed by alot of people here for poor special teams play, but it really wasn't his fault at all.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
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  38. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    So he's as bad or worse than John Avery?
     
  39. Cosmic

    Cosmic Social Disease

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    This is one hell of a good point. Thank you.
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Avery was a bustaroni from Day 1, Ginn has had great moments for us so far, the TD catch against the Jets for example.

    We are coming into the most difficult 4 game stretch in our schedule, NYJ, Saints, NYJ, Pats, I can wait to see what Ginn does in that stretch of games before comparing him to some of the dim bulbs that have posed as Wr for us over the years.

    As the saying goes "Big time players make big time plays" irregardless, they find a way to get it done, a part of that is Sparano and Bonamego should put Ginn on returns and enough with the 'fresh as a daisy" stuff, if he is a Football Player he will make football plays when given the chance.
     

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