just the way i see it is he has the floor of ryan leaf a likelihood of joey harrington and the possibility of rex grossman
No one, I repeat no one has even come close to suggesting we should draft a "franchise qb" here just for the sake of it. Don't put words in other posters mouths. Uh, what? From I have read and heard he did impress many, where are you getting he didn't? How much further back could we possibly go?
I have to be honest man, after reading this I don't think it's possible for you to have a fair and unbiased opinion on Ryan.
Ok lets see...the QBs of the last 3 drafts in the first round are: 07 - #1 Jamarcus Russell, #22 Brady Quinn 06 - #3 Vince Young, #10 Matt Leinart, #11 Jay Cutler 05 - #1 Alex Smith, #24 Aaron Rodgers, #25 Jason Campbell. In my opinion, after watching a lot of Ryan in his senior season, I have Ryan rated higher than all except Cutler. I'm not sure about Russell unless he changes his attitude because I really liked his ability coming out of college. It's one thing talking about Beck working his butt off and another thing executing when the bullets are flying. It's not really fair to compare stats of Beck, Russell and Ryan because they all play against different competition. Stats/measurables are only guides. I would understand not drafting Ryan if we have a Pro Bowl QB but we don't. We have a QB with a 4 game experience and as you said high potential. What if that potential does not get realised?
Behind last seasons offensive line? T Brady would have struggled mightily if he would have been Miami's starting qb last season! Marino1983
No way! Not at #1. If he falls, I wouldn't mind trying to trade up a little from 32 like the Browns did for Quinn.
What should Parcells say about J Beck? In fact when has Parcells come out publicly and said anything about any player (other than JT) on the roster? This team is rebuilding once again and considering all that went wrong last season I just do not see how anyone can give up a J Beck. This kid has all the intangibles to be a very successful starting qb in this league.. Does this mean he is the second coming of Danny? No but who is to say that Beck cannot be as good or better when given the right tools to work with, mainly an offensive line that doesn't play like a group of swinging gates. Matt Ryan imo doesn't have the skills that J Beck has shown.. And there is just no way in hell that Ryan is worth a 32 million plus signing bonus the overall 1st rnd pick will receive this draft. Marino1983
Regardless of any OL, Beck has not proven anything yet. Has he proven himself with a good OL yet? No! And yet you are going to hand him a starting job after 4 games? Sorry, that's too gutsy for me. I rather take the conservative approach. Draft Ryan now and let Beck try to compete.
What has held this franchise back the most is complete ineptitude in personnel moves over a 5-7 year period...(thank you very much Wanny and Saban)...That's the need that has held us back. We've lived off of JJs defense since he left. Yes, QB has been a key issue, but so has OL, RB, secondary, LBers and STs...
No you're not. If you were, the first thing you'd state was that you weren't a contrarian at all. Needs more Monty Python
I didn't want to say it before but since you have already mentioned it, every time I saw Ryan throw, he reminded me of Tom Brady. He also has a bit of Farve in him because he tries to emulate his style. Hence the throws off his back foot and the gunslinging attempts.
Well Charlie Weiss compared him to Brady. Said he reminded him of a combination of Tom Brady and Brady Quinn whatever that means. And I believe Ryan's favorite QB growing up was Favre so that probably is probably why you see a bit of the gunslinger in his game
Kind of hard to show your talent as a qb behind a subpar OL! So how can Beck be judged? And I never posted that J Beck be given the Dolphins starter position. This thread was started with the question of drafting M Ryan or not. Marino1983
Like my dear departed mother always said: "Hindsight's a rare luxury (you can't afford)." What you think of these listed QBs now has no bearing on the consensu perception of their skills and potential prior to the drafts. Given that, Leinart, Young, Cutler and maybe even Jaw's favorite Clemens would have gone above Ryan. And for those who are quoting Jaws as Ryan being "elite" remember he called Clemens the best QB in his class). Russell, right or wrong would have gone before Ryan and I equate Ryan to Quinn who ended up going at 22 - all last year's Quinn slurpers are now fixated on Ryan. Smith who also was very smart and had the "it factor" might have gone before Ryan, that's hard to say. Aaron Rogers, who going into the draft was neck and neck with Smith and ended up being a Quinn-depth selection might have been also been selected prior to Ryan. This is all conjecture, but the point is, you can't put on your "back to the future" glasses projecting Ryan's success....but use hindsight when it comes to the other highly touted QBs in those drafts. I stand by my assertion that Ryan's at best the 5th most promising QB in the last 3 years and as such does not justify a #1 pick. Then again, opinions, including my own are like you-know-what...every has one and some are smellier than others!
First of all, it's really, really, REALLY hard for a quarterback to prove himself with a good o-line when he never PLAYED behind a good o-line. Second of all, I'd rather not draft Ryan. Nothing against him or anything, but there is no concrete evidence to show that Ryan has significantly more potential the quarterback we have now (not to say he doesn't have potential. He has loads. But so does Beck). Should we go into the draft without trying to take a QB? Of course not. But I'd rather not spend a first rounder on a quarterback who probably any more potential than the one we even have on our roster.
No I dont want Matt Ryan if he falls in to the 2nd or 3rd round then okay. But I don think we will pick a quarterback up in the draft. But we also need to give John Beck a chance
Very true. And most talent evaluators agree that Matt Ryan is the best prospect in the draft so the odds of him being a bust are significantly less than the other QBs in the draft. The only QB that even comes close is Brian Brohm.
The reason all those "Quinn slurpers" are fixated on Ryan is that we STILL don't have a QB in Miami. We'll be clamoring to draft a franchise QB until we actually do it.
I'm wouldn't be adverse to pulling the trigger on a "Franchise QB" if only one were only available this year ....or last! Who knows, maybe next year we might be well-positioned to capture a Manning or Palmer.
Russell was evaluated as the best QB last year and actually underperfomed Beck in most meaningful statistical categories... and then there's David Carr
I've got a better idea, I believe. Let's fix what could only charitably be classified as an "offensive" offensive line this year and then see what Beck can do behind a (hopefully) improved line. For that matter, let's see what Ronnie/Ricky/Lorenzo can do behind an improved line. If Beck cannot cut it, and McCown just shows to be a stop-gap at best, then we can address QB with the possibility that behind that hopefully improved offensive line said new QB can grow and show some sparks of being a "Franchise" quarterback. The key to any offensive scheme and any offensive production is a more than capable offensive line. We have not had, nor have we invested in one any more than a cursory in fashion in far too long - like 15 years. With depth in the draft this year, this is the time. NOW!!!! If we spend 2008 putting together the O Line, and let the learn how to play in conjunction with each other, then in 2009 we will be in far better shape than we have been in a long, long, time. In no way do I see a questionably adequate first round quarterback being worth the investment this year unless he is the second coming of Johnny Unitas, let alone a clone of Dan Marino or Peyton Manning.
...and Matt Ryan has proved exactly what in the NFL? ...behind any line? ...and yet, you're going to hand him the starting job after never playing a snap in the NFL? I'd rather take the more conservative approach. Not wasting a #1 overall pick on a player that probably won't play at all this year any way and see exactly what we have already on the roster... Let Beck compete with McCown and maybe a later draft pick...
And what QB is better or as good as Ryan next year coming out of college if Beck fails? Drafting Cherilous or Baker will solve our ROT position and we can draft Velasco with our 4th if we want to add a Guard. Our oline is fixed and we have the best QB prospect since Marino on our roster
Even if there was - drafting a potential franchise QB when you don't have a more than capable offensive line is a recipe for disaster. Take a look at Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Alex Smith for points in case. All of them were considered franchise material and none of them panned out. Compare that to Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer and you'll see that both the Colts and Bengals drafted a left tackle first and adressed the QB position after they found their franchise tackle. You'd actually have a hard time coming up with just a single "franchise QB" who panned out under the QB first approach. I'm truly at a loss as to why NFL teams keep drafting inside out. It never works. The Raiders, I'm afraid, are going to be the next team that has to learn that the hard way. I sincerely hope we don't follow in their footsteps. To me, the whole debate isn't about whether or not Matt Ryan is a true franchise QB and worthy of a #1 overall selection. I don't think he is, but that's completely irrelevant as the inside out approach isn't very considerate of potential franchise QBs. Usually, it ruins them. I'm still convinced that David Carr was one of the most talented QB prospects of the last 10 or 15 years. Four years behind that Texans line and he's damaged goods. When people talk about successful franchise QBs, they tend to step into the fallacy of assuming that they would have been successful QBs anywhere. To me, that's not just speculation but a logical fallacy. Even if Marino or Manning were available in this draft, I wouldn't draft them. Not unless I've got a franchise LT and a good LG to boot. Get a good offensive line, and you'll be successful with s solid QB. The same just isn't true the other way round.
I dont understand the argument that we have to fix our oline and that's why we shouldnt draft Ryan. We have Satele, Carey, Smiley so we need two more positions filled. We have seven picks. Are you telling me we cant find a OT and OG with 6 picks left? Cherilous, Baker, Cousins, Nicks, Zuttah, Robinson, Gibson, Collins, Rhinehart, Schuening, Rachal, Velasco, McGlynn, Greco, Thomas, etc...What would prevent us from drafting these guys?
I comes down to if you believe Ryan is a franchise can't miss prospect, I don't see him as a franchise QB, and I don't see him as a can't miss prospect, so I say no.
because given a proper oline Beck would actually have a chance to succeed. In all the discussion not once has there been a quality argument that ryan is any better than beck. None. The only place you can compare them is college, and Beck wins that one. Fix the o line, fix the qb.
Which leaves the two most crucial and hard to fill positions - left tackle and left guard - without an above average starter. You seem to assume that drafting an OG or OT in the second or third round would make our offensive line set. I don't think that's the case. It's going to take these guys at least two years (and that's assuming your picks are going to pan out nicely to start with) while you expose your potential franchise QB to a shaky line and let him develop bad habits. Plus, there's literally no depth on this roster whatsoever. Who's going to man the left or right side if a tackle goes down? What if Satele gets injured? Fill those two positions first - and add some depth while you're at it - then draft your franchise QB. In my humble opinion, that's the only sensible way of doing it.
Well its certainly an understandable strategy just as the get our defense fixed first strategy is understandable. Of course I think draftinf a potential franchise QB is also in the mix for strategy
That's a very good point, mate. I still firmly believe that it was wrong to throw Beck in there last year. It achieved nothing and risked ruining everything. If it was up to me, I wouldn't even have him start this season (whether he beats McCown or not); not until I'd be dead certain I've given him a situation in which he can succeed instead of one in which he's bound to fail. That's the one crucial factor in which the inside out or QB first approach fails: it asks a cat to bark. You owe it to your young QBs to put them in a position where they can succeed. We can mock Harrington, Carr, Couch or Beck's performance last year but the sad truth is that these guys never had a chance to begin with. They were put in a position to fail. I don't want us commiting the same mistake. Let's create a position in which a young quarterback can succeed first. If Beck doesn't cut it then - go ahead and draft someone who can. It sure is, my friend. I just think that it wouldn't be the best timing in this year's draft. Don't get me wrong: It obviously is a legitimate strategy considering how many teams are doing it each year. But if I take a look at the results, they don't convince me that it's the most sensible way of doing it. But feel free to disagree
I agree with you wholeheartedly but even if I didn't, I think what the Ryan boosters are missing is our lack of consensus that he's gonna end up a Manning or Palmer vs a Couch or Smith. Ryan's demonstrated that he is worthy of a first round selection whether he ends up being successful or not..BUT not THE FIRST overall pick! I think there've been 2 schools of thought here regarding not drafting Ryan: 1) Beck's got as much upside as Ryan and it's not valid to criticize him on the basis of last season's "audition," especially falling in love with an imperfect QB as our first selection when there are so many holes to fill; or 2) Beck could be good but we have no idea and shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket - so if there was a scenario where we did some trading and we were there to select Ryan (or Brohm) in mid teens to mid 20s where they belonged, the upside is worth the risk and whichever of our QBs ends up #1 on the depth chart, it's okay with us, we win...BUT Ryan's just not worth the 1st overall pick. True, there might also be a small contingent who does come off arbitrarily labeling Ryan a "loser," but I think that's mostly a gut reflex reaction to the many disrespectful and inappropriate pejoratives hurled at Beck.!
lol guess that 82% answered your question. I would of voted but i couldnt find the not a chance in hell option..
what do you want me to say? i think he is a franchise qb just for the sake of being fair? like i said i grew up in new england i have seen him play his whole career and he reminds me of joey harrington at one point he will throw such a beautiful pass and in the next he throws in triple coverage and there is a pick 6 so would you rather me say he is dan marino incarnate he will lead us to victory while ignoring some big flaws in his game? i said he has the potential to be rex grossman, because rex is a avg qb in the NFL he will make some all right passes and then make the big mistake
Nor am I judging Beck. I'm only pointing out that he earn his right to start. I didn't turn this thread into a Beck thread...someone else did