They said the same stuff about John Beck. Picking out a good Qb is as much art as science, even the so called experts are often wrong and the only way to tell is to pull the trigger with a draft pick and to see what they've got. To me, so far, White has not shown fear of failure like Beck did, White is having "some" buzzer problems, but not as many as I recall Beck having.
That was as fine an example of Head Coach gibberish as we are likely to hear. Interesting that he brought up Romo in Dallas, it took years to develop Romo into a NFL Qb.
Not to mention they are working him in front of the crowds in the regular offense. Wait till he's running the Wildcat and then we'll see him operating in his strengths.
I'm sure playing with 3rd teamers and guys who wont come close to making the team dont help his case.
Either 'mando or omark Marty, the blogs tend to run together and a 7 line sentence is tough to recall when you read it. Actually it was Mike B: 6 words...out of thousands...from 3 days ago... http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sport...ns-afternoon-practice-observations-day-3.html A) I guess I'm a larger PW fan than I thought B) Big picture, notice all the Qb's seem to find Turner in the end zone?
I think the buzzer, if White can master the thing, we will have something special because he is so quick, even in a short area, that fast decision making and the feet to keep a play alive and the arm to get the ball down the field, White could be pretty good for us. Sparano was talking about White as the #3 Qb, to me he is BSing us as White will have to be able to also run some semblance of the standard offense, even if it is bubble screens and comeback routes and drag routes. White has to be able to do that in order to keep the "D" from making substitutions, no way Sparano lets "White in game=D sends in WC defensive package" every time. (Waits for KB to lay smack down...)
Pat White will please big time he will be a starter this year he will captain the WildCat need not worry about Pat White
I expect them to SB, Def Cords have had months to plan how they want to defend the Wildcat, and chances are good that it will involve substitutions over base personnel. White simply must run the 2 minute offense well in practice as it as close as he will come to the sort of package that he can run in an actual game imho.
I thought I was pretty clear that I was trying to explain what I thought KB meant once people decided to jump on him for his comment about White. I shared my opinion in the following paragraph, I have said clearly that I hope he does well and also that it's too soon to hit the panic button, so I'm not exactly sure where the confusion comes in. Do I think that White has the ability to justify his selection in the early 2nd round? No I don't, especially seeing that we passed up more pressing needs at LB. If he was taken in the 3rd round after we addressed other needs, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. When there is question about White's ability to make it in the NFL as a QB and you jump in to say.... ...does that not imply that you feel he does indeed have those abilities that people are questioning? If not, please clarify your statement. Do explain that ridiculous comment, I'm curious to know who I'm "throwing under the bus". Well how about we start with the scouts and FO's of the Pats, Broncos and Vikes, teams that we know who worked White out as a WR, and potentially the Ravens. People can question the analysis of anonymous folks on a message board, but I think the Pats have a pretty good track record of finding players, evaluating them and then getting the most out of them. Moving on to guys like Kiper and McShay, both of whom said that White doesn't have what it takes to play QB. The funny thing about Kiper and McShay is when they say something positive about our team, our draft selections, or they knock the selections of our rivals, then they are geniuses and people use their quotes to support the player. But when they give a bad review of our draft selection (like White), they are bums who wouldn't know their backside from their elbow. Steve Muench and Scout.com also said that they felt White was better suited for the WR spot, with Muench saying... Remember, teams wanted White to workout as a WR at his proday and he refused, he then decided to do drills as a WR during individual private workouts. There is a reason that they wanted to see him lineup to catch passes, White wasn't going to supplant Brady or Cutler, he wasn't going to budge Joe Flacco, those teams viewed him as a WR and/or a specialty player.
When it is a small percentage of the actual offense, yes. Is a career 53% completion rating and 75% QB rating considered good by NFL standards? Vick is a RB in QB's clothing IMO.
How do you know how much spread-option we will be running? If we drafted a player to run it, don't you think we will see more of it? Vick took his team to the conference finals, and was a two-time Pro Bowler. His passing numbers will always be better than they appear, because he doesn't have dumpoff passes to pad them. I'm not saying he was great QB, but he certainly was very good, considering the system he was in was only partially sufficient IMO.
And the Pats have a pretty good track record of giving major smokescreens. McShay and Kiper definitely did say White is a WR. But Mayock, Lombardi, Gruden, and Parcells all think he will be a QB
Do I know for sure? No I don't, but I don't see us running the WC enough to warrant drafting a specialty player to run it in the early 2nd round. As the season progressed, more teams started to figure out how to contain the WC, I don't think that Parcells and Co. would put all of their eggs in one basket and run the WC more than we did last year. I wholeheartedly disagree, take away his ability to scramble and I don't think he lasts as long as he did as a QB and I don't think he gets selected as high in the draft. Probowl appearances are misleading, I know that I've used them in the past as an aide, but fans have a role in the player's selection. Every year there is a thread for us to go out and vote in our players, so while PB selection does tell you something about a player, it's hard to know if he made it on his own merits or if he was voted in by fans who think his jersey is cool. Then what does it say about Chad Henne that we had to use a high 2nd rounder on yet another QB? Last I knew, the FO was very high on Henne.
I thought were used a low 2nd rounder on Chad Henne. The very high was used on Merling. I wonder if it is just a coincidence that both Pat White and Chad Henne were taken with draft picks from a trade.
Well, see the funny thing about that is when I first challenged your statement, you never claimed you were trying to "explain what KB meant". You defended it as if it was your own statement. It was only after I again challenged it that you decided that it wasn't your statement and merely your attempt at interpreting what he was trying to say. Even if you were just trying to clarify what he was saying, what the statement was is essentially Pat White couldn't read defense IN COLLEGE and couldn't find the open man IN COLLEGE. So why would you thank KB, and then go out of your way to interpret his post, as if we're all illiterate and can't read or comprehend what he wrote, if you didn't agree with it yourself? Are you really trying to have me believe that you jumped to that statement based on KB's post(I went back and read it, he never really said Pat White couldn't read a defense in college or hit the open man) and that you don't agree with it, but decided to type it out anyway? Ok, I buy that. Nope. It only implies that I believe he obviously had the ability to read COLLEGE defenses and hit the open man in COLLEGE. Again, I was challenging your statement above which you are now backpedalling away from. Whether or not he can read NFL defenses or find the open man in the NFL remains to be seen. As I explained above, you are throwing KB under the bus by claiming your statement was your interpretation of his thoughts when it seems like your own thought. Debating the statement until I pointed out how ridiculous it was and then claiming it wasn't your thought is pretty ridiculous IMO.
much to do about nothing won't see Pat White until you see the WildCat & you might not see a lot of that until game time only the season holds the answers to this exceptional football talent & athlete the end
I think there is a valuable point to made here, especailly in light of Sparano saying we will have a "Pat Package". Traning Camp is all about a learning curve and discovering a player's limitations, that is why rookies are challenged until they reach the point of failure, in essence, their learning curve plateau's and runs into resistance from going back upwards. Smart coaches discover that plateau ASAP and then put the players into situations were they can succeed...the exact opposite of Cam Cameron's "fail forward fast". Pat White's TC learning curve stopped at practice 7 or 8, before the first scrimmage, does that mean White's ceiling as a Qb is low? I will say the Staff now has formed their opinion of White pre playing any games, even intra squad games, it is now up to White to take what they design for him and master it and show room for further growth. Stuff to look for with White is: Clock Management, pulling away from Center smoothly, looking off the Safety, and quick decision making. The "Pat Package" may bolster the case for those who feel White was a reach, the "Pat Package" gives those who liked the pick something to look forward to watching White accomplish.
Ya know.. I hear some of you fella's complain that we wasted/didn't get value for our second round pick on White.. well how about Henne.. we spent a second on him too, how many snaps did he get last year.. 6? does that make him a wasted pick too? How much did HE contribute in his first year? We will get significantly more value out of Whites pick in his first year, and if Penny should go down, or leave us that would make White the second qb. I just don't see how any of you can say the White pick has depressed value when he will not only be serving the exact same function as Henne has, but will actually see the field and contribute in his first year. The only time a qb gives back any value is when he is on the field.. our third qb will see more reps than any third qb in friggen NFL history.
I didn't feel the need to seeing that I prefaced my original post by saying "The point that I think KB is trying to make..." Once again, incorrect. You said... I thought to myself "Really? Nothing at all?" and replied... But please, do continue... I thanked him for this... I agree with him that White doesn't seem to have a role other than a specialty player in the WC, if we are to get true value out of him we'll need to try him at another position that he doesn't have any experience playing and may not be successful at, I've said that from the moment he was drafted, hence the thanks. I also think it's nice to see the gurus venture out to the main board to share their analysis, I think that deserves a "thanks", although that wasn't why I did it. Which brings me to another point, are we really that desperate to play the "gotcha" game that we are now going to scrutinize every "thanks" that someone gives? If the criteria for giving "thanks" was that I had to agree with every single thing that a person types, then I wouldn't be thanking very many people, none of us would. And your comment that implies that I feel our members are illiterate is insulting and about as far from the truth as one could possibly get. As for why I decided to step in to try and explain his comments, he made a very bold statement that is very unpopular around here, I knew it was going to receive a certain level of critical responses (and did before I could hit Submit) and I was hoping to give a little context and keep the conversation moving along instead of leaving his comment to sit there and gather angry replies until he logged on again to respond. Instead I seem to have redirected that anger in my direction, which is fine. Quite frankly, you're free to believe anything that you want. But you do have a Club membership and you do frequent that forum, I'm sure that you've come across one of the many posts from KB where he explains why he doesn't feel that White is an NFL QB, no? Oops, I guess I was using his comments in context after all. Which I just disproved above. I think you and others know me by now, after a few years of conversations I think it's apparent that I stick to my guns and defend my POV long after Elvis and all of his impersonators have left the building. I don't backpedal, I don't shift blame or "throw people under the bus", but you're more than free to think what you like. Right, because that was my plan all along. I said to myself "Mike, how about you take some of your spare time and log into ThePhins to make an unpopular statement and then blame it on someone else, just for ****s and giggles?". I used my "throw someone under the bus" superpowers to influence KB to post that negative analysis of White's abilities so I could agree with it before I disagreed with it....because....you know....I think everyone is illiterate....or something. You know brother, you jumped to alot of wild conclusions and accused me of alot of things without any facts to back it up. I would appreciate in the future that you take a little more time to think things through before you jump off the deep end and accuse me of being dishonest and thinking less of our fellow members, just because you happen to disagree with my POV. I haven't made any secrets about my feelings on the White selection, I've been consistent since day 1 that I think we reached for a player who really doesn't have the skill to justify his draft spot, he really doesn't have a role outside of the wildcat and that we had more pressing needs. I'm not the only person here who feels that way and there were several folks in the NFL that viewed him as not having the talent at his position to justify the pick,something that I've pointed out many times. If you looked at this objectively and read my first post in this thread you would have seen me say that it was too early to hit the panic button and that I hope White succeeds, all of this could have been avoided had you not jumped off the deep end.
"High" in relation to the rest of the draft, I think a 3rd rounder is a high pick as well. Marty, Henne is being groomed as the QB of the future and he will get his chance. White was drafted as a QB (per Ireland's comments) and that's wasted value if they view Henne as Pennington's successor. In my opinion, White's success is going to be directly tied to the success or failure of the WC because that's the role that he is going to play on this team, if it isn't as effective as some folks think it will be, White is going to either find himself on the bench as the #3 or he's going to be put into a position (WR) that he has no experience playing. That isn't enough to justify using the #44 pick, especially seeing that we had (and still have) more pressing needs. A team like NE can afford to take chances on a player, their roster is pretty much set and they are a SB contender, we are a team in year 2 of this regime, we need to be smart with our picks instead of drafting a guy who may have a very short shelf life in this offense.
Were it not for White's ability to run with the football, I doubt he ever plays college ball much gets less drafted in the 2nd round of the NFL draft. Personally I could care less if Pat White, his agent, his mom, the NFL Network or whomever, wants him to be a QB....I want to get as much value as possible out of that premium pick pick we used on him. I would like to see him returning kicks, punts, lining up in the slot, in the backfield, wildcat package and used in whatever way we can get him the ball in the open field, because that's where this kid is dangerous. I have a hard time picturing him ever being dangerous, taking snaps under center and reading defenses from the pocket... JS
and if the wc is used equally as much as a base offense, is the pick still a waste if you are correct and thats all pat white is here for? Would the henne pick be a waste then as well? what if white evolves into a qb who is both mobile and can stay in the pocket? you have to be smart, but being smart and cautious are two entirely different things. it is pretty asinine to assume a pick is a waste, especially for the dolphins to draft a qb. Something this team has been devoid of for x number of years.
So, 4 teams out of 32 decided to work him out at WR as well as QB, and all the sudden you're posting things earlier, like after watching him for 4 yrs in college, "they", meaning I suppose, the majority of college scouts, do not think he has QB skills worthy of the NFL. Did YOU watch him in college? What did you think of his performances that YOU saw? When you were watching him, were you thinking he is too inaccurate, lacking of arm strength, too small, or too whatever to not make it as a NFL QB? I don't know who likes to praise Kiper and McShay when they are positive about one of our picks, and dissing them when they are negative. That's not me, and it is really not pertinent here. From what I recall though, since you brought them up, is the majority of comments I've seen on McShay are that he is very seldom well regarded here at any time. You offer them as 2 draft gurus who do not think he has a chance as a NFL QB, and I offer Jaws and Mayock as 2 who do think he has a good chance. Ok. depends on who's opinion carries more weight with you.
What is the success of the WC? I'm basing my assumption on the fact that teams were able to figure out how to limit our success in the WC as the year went on. Now that they've had a full year to digest, review and plan to stop it, I honestly don't see it as being as effective. How so? But do we continue to throw picks at the position year after year until we strike oil or do we try and develop the players that we have? I would think that any Dolphin fan who watched this team use countless draft picks in recent years on the QB spot would want to see us develop Henne instead of tossing more picks around.
I think what i feel in this thread, is more of a disapointment i guess, in some of the analysis that iam hearing in the thread. What bothers me is the lack of depth, of the analysis by the ones that i have respect for..a lot of us understand and think that Pat does'nt have the skills to be a traditional proset qb...But to stop the analysis there, without taking into account the dynamics of our new offense, and how this player, with his set of unique skills, and how those skills fit into what were trying to accomplish here, is incomplete analysis imo. We have to teach the guy how to play the position of NFL qb, but thats because he's our 3rd stringer...that doesnt mean that the plan is to become our starter, it means, that for him to be our third, he has to learn the position traditionally, so just in case, ya know... Thats just fluff, the real reason imo why he was drafted, is to evolve in the hybrid, alongside ronnie brown, to make that part of our offense as dangerous and threatening as possible to a defense, and, to eventually grow into his own package, running the wildcat, with ronnie by his side.. Much respect to all my brothers and sisters.
4 teams that were confirmed after his proday, several teams wanted him to workout as a WR and he refused, instead opting to do it during individual workouts. From what I've seen, and I admit that I'm not a hardcore college football junkie, I think he's the type of QB that will look at his first option and then run. I don't think he has great field vision as a QB, as a runner yes, but not as a pocket passer. Size is a matter of opinion, there have been QB's who are smaller than the prototypical 6'4" who have been successful. In short, I think we are in better hands with Henne. I didn't attribute that to you, it was a general statement. There is alot of short term memory on the internet, here we had folks calling for Crowder's head last season and who wanted to see him leave, then once he resigned he's a capable player. There were folks who said Taylor was finished, especially when it looked as if he was considering signing with NE, now we have the best tandem in the league and he's going to regain his old form. This type of thing happens alot. I don't think any of them are infallible (the same with NFL FO's), they are all capable of making the wrong call on a player at any time, but they do put in alot of time and effort into scouting and get paid alot of money for their opinions. I take everything I read with an open mind and try to look at players to make my own determination. My problem with White is that there were more than the usual coming out of the woodwork to say that they didn't feel he had what it took to play QB in the NFL, with teams going as far as working him out as a WR. If a player is that good at what he does, there wouldn't be that much question surrounding his ability to compete IMO. There may be a few detractors, but there wouldn't be people saying that he doesn't even belong at his college position for which people are singing his praises.
My bad, after trading away so many 2nd rounders that ended in disappointment, I've come to value them (and 3rd rounders) as high picks. While we may add more wrinkles, teams are wise enough to plan for anything we can throw at them. No respectable DC is going to sit there and only gameplan for what he sees on tape, he's going to look at the WC and think of every possible way that his defense could be vulnerable, then look for a way to stop it. I think alot of you feel that I don't want to see White succeed, that isn't the case. To root against him is to root against the Dolphins, and I'm a Dolphins fan above anything else. As much as I dislike the way Ricky left us and how Taylor helped to undermine Cam and force his (Taylor's) way out of town, they are Dolphins and I want to see them do well. Any other characterization that folks come to is incorrect.
I have a theory, the more a player sees the field and has success, the better he will become, simple mistakes are fixed, experience teaches the astute at a much faster pace than mere study does. There is no substitute for being on the field, the more P White sees the field and makes plays and things become comfortable for him, the better he will become, even in the mini offense of the Wildcat. For example, Ronnie Brown is now (and certainly should be) a much better trigger man this season, than he was in 2008 simply because he has practiced the WC more, he has experience at throwing the ball. The real question then becomes, how much will White see the field, and is he a fast, experiential learner?
It's been addressed and you dismiss the concern of how often the WC will be used, how effective it will be and whether the value of the selection was justified if the WC is less effective than you think it will be. It doesn't make sense to keep going around in circles if you won't consider those concerns.
By that concept every offense is moot after a year. Sorry bro, much respect as always, but a non traditional offense does not make it any more irrelevant after a year then others. It would be one thing if it was a couple of plays, I think by now its obvious the wc can be much more then that. If the wildcat and traditional offense are used 50/50 does that then render the henne pick a waste since he is only half of the plays. And if henne doesn't work out then you have nothing behind him to develop, and you are forced to start over again. Like I said its fine to be cautious. But there is unintelligent and cautious. Your approach is cautious. Using a second on another qb that could develop a new package, or possibly become a traditional qb in his own right, is far from an over use of picks imo. Especially for a position like qb that is important and the beginning of all offensive plays besides the center. I actually think their approach is in between not to aggresive, ie jets moving up to get sanchez, not to cautious either, ie drafting a late rounder, career backup.
When I watch him I see a qb who is pass first unless there is a huge hole. When I watch highlights of him play he is constantly looking down field, even when he is running towards the sidelines on a broken play. Many of the highlights I have seen is him running sideways and then throwing the ball. One thing he has over Vick and Young is the fact that he can actually throw on the run. He actually stops and plants, unlike those two QBs. I think what they did in college was play to his strengths. It would of been stupid of them to have him be a prototypical QB. It doesn't matter what his instincts are. The type of offense he can run in college is very effective.
Mike, i think we all think were in better hands with henne operating the proset....... so what the hell is everybody debating about,lol. How bout we focus on what is looking more and more like the real reason why we drafted the kid, and why i was jumping around in my living room when we called his name at the podium. Ronnie and Pat run out onto the field together, the crowd rises in unison, they break the huddle, ronnie is behind center in the wildcat to take the snap..BLUE 52!! BLUE 52!!!..ALL OF A SUDDEN, ronnie moves out from center, replaced by the rookie, {holy sh#@!! is that even legal, lol} ronnie moves to pat's side while Pat continues the cadence, BLUE 52!! SET!!! HUT!! HUT!!!
Great discussion here. Everyone has a valid point about Pat White. L2G is right when he says the pick of PW will be determined on the success of the WC. PW may be able to play other positions, but his main position is WC QB, and If the WC fails, PW is to blame. It also doesn't help that we picked Pat White over Barwin, Unger, Sintim, etc.., players that play positions of need on the Miami Dolphins. Hence, why he says the pick wasn't a very good pick. But L2G, for you to say the pick was a wasted pick is the problem. We have to wait and see. The WC could revolutionize the NFL, and PW can lead the way. He may not be able to run the base offense( MAY NOT), but he doesn't have to. And that is what DjPhinfan is saying. PW is here to run the WC along side RB. And I can guarantee you this years WC will be different than last years WC, because now we have the option of passing out of it, unlike last year.
