Dorsey...Dumbest Decision Ever

Past "history" of defensive tackles has NOTHING to do with Dorsey being taken #1.

Defensive tackle is not a "pressing position"? Have you seen our run defense? You seem to be one of the "only players who handle the ball should be picked #1" guys. I'm opposite. where some people want Eric Dickerson or Barry Sanders I would take Bob Lilly, Joe Greene or Merlin Olsen over either of them...

Drafting McFadden #1 would leave me tempted to throw myself off my balcony.

 

On the "History" front, you missed perenial all pro Kenneth Sims of the New England Patriots DT Texas...the Patsies back in the day were baaad, and Mr. Sims was supposed to...shore up the run "D"...

And I do agree, Mr. Dorsey is hurt worse then we know, for some, that doesn't matter as he had a "great" 2006 season...

There is a month between the last LSU Game and the Championship game, if Glenn Dorsey doesn't show up and play big, then we trade out or grade McF..

 

Ronnie Brown is hurt. Though he's the best player on the team. I would argue that a running back should never be taken high in the draft because of the short "shelf-life," they have. If McFadden were Walter Payton than I wouldn't pass on him but that he is not.

I'd love to have a player of Tim Bowens caliber playing tackle for this team. I don't believe that was a failed experiment at all. Even Daryl Gardner worked out pretty well for the team IMO.

McFadden is the "sexier" pick because he's a running back but Dorsey is the better pick because he's the best player. The team took a high impact player last year and how's that worked out so far?

 

BTW...how was Tim Bowens a "failed experiment"? The guy played a decade and made 2 Pro Bowls as a middle plugger. I think that pick worked out damnn well to be honest.

Besides, comparing Bowens to Dorsey is ridiculous, they are TOTALLY different players. If you want to compare Dorsey to someone use Tommie Harris or Warren Sapp.

 

Let's look at the Chargers/Atlanta trade and compare it to the current situation.

1) The team with the #5 pick are the Jets. Well intra-divisional rivalry puts something of a brake on a trade happening.
2) Michael Vick was the clear cut consensus #1 overall that year, who also played at the most desirable position in football. This year there's no clear cut consensus #1 pick and even if there was is after the bowl games and combine it aint gonna be a QB.

Listen if we can pull off a a trade for the #1 overall for the #5 overall + 5th pick of the second round I'd nominate Randy Mueller to be the next Pope. I just have a lot of trouble seeing the dynamics favoring a trade occurring. Especially when teams looking to trade up will probably be more likely to want to deal with the Patsies than us (2nd overall gets paid less than 1st overall and the Patsies can afford to be more flexible in what they're willing to accept in trade)

 

History bears witness as to the fact that if there ever was a position were greatness was to be found early, it is defensive tackle. Go beyond round one, as far back as Leo the lion in 1950, and you might find a brawler, bow legged type that can clog the middle, but you’ll rarely find an impact defensive tackle. The early to late round equation is staggering really, unlike any I’ve ever seen before, with all of the all-time greats being children of the first round, the only exception being Art Donovan who lasted until the 17th round in 1947. I guarantee you that if general managers took a closer look at the list, the flyers distributed in the later rounds to defensive tackles would probably cease immediately, and give way to flyers taken on tight ends or linebackers, where the late round success rate is much more palpable. The reasons are evident, there are very few men who can take on two blockers consistently, caress the oncoming running back, and get to the quarterback regularly that go unnoticed.

McFadden is a fine thoroughbred, but he’s benefited from AD being a once in a decade prospect, just as Ginn Jr. benefited from Hester. I’ve watched a few of his games, notably the one where, earlier this year, he continued to run hard with his team down 21-0 to Alabama and was the real motor behind the Hogs comeback. He explodes thru the line, and has some scare in him, which is a given for any special running back, uses the straight arm as well as anyone since Priest Holmes. I'd be stunned if he doesn't end up with 1,200 yards next year. It isn't enough for me though, because I have zero confidence of the protruding hole in the middle of our defense being fixed by another draftee, or free agent signing.

As for Dorsey, he understands the game, eats the shuttle pass for lunch, and will blow up most gadget plays. A favourite aspect of mine, and a frequently overlooked one at that be it college or pros, is the relentlessness he shows from the gun to the end. You undress someone like Adarius Bowman, who, during Oklahoma State's embarrassing loss to Troy, gave half-hearted efforts and dropped an easy pass that would have resulted in a score, and you wonder how that will translate to the next level. You take a look at Glenn Dorsey’s legs churning in the fourth quarter, devoid of the Forrest Gump leg braces he had as a kid, and you know, that he is everything you look for in a player.

To recap, the history argument so often used by McFadden supporters, is, in fact, strongly in favour of Dorsey. A mountain full of names from Alex Karras, to Bob Lilly, to Cortez Kennedy, are all testament to that. The injury concerns are puzzling, unless you believe some posters, that they're ''chronic'', based undoubtedly, on their recent conversations with the athletic trainers at LSU. But above all, the don't let the Pats or Jets take him thinking knocks me silly. It reminds me of the Portland fans who insisted on taking Sam Bowie so that the Bulls could not get their man. The Bulls ended up with Michael Jordan, and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

I don't think LaDainian Tomlinson is the sole reason the Chargers franchise got turned around. John Butler and then A.J. Smith turned the franchise around. Tomlinson is a great talent but how many playoff games has he won? As great of a player he is that team like many others goes as far as the Qb can take them. When Brees struggled the team struggled just like Philip Rivers now. Also the roided up linebacker Shawne Merriman coming from the Eli trade has helped out tremendously. I don't care if this team has to play McFadden twice a year. McFadden isn't a better back than Peterson was when coming out.

I would argue that Michael Vick before as a player was more important to his team than LT. Now that he's in the hole it's a moot point.

You mention all the positions that the Dolphins have a need for yet running back isn't one of them. Glenn Dorsey is rated as the best player in the country and has been all year. The logic of taking a guy just so another team doesn't, is flawed. Hypothetically the Patriots although having Tom Brady would draft a Qb just so they don't have to play him twice a year.

 

Alright who gave Jeff in San Diego his Soap Box back?

 

He's played this entire season hurt, and he's STILL been dominant. Do you really think his injuries won't heal by August 2008? He's going to play exactly one football game between then and now: the national championship game, which is a month off.

Since when is being the victim of an illegal chop block into your right knee the definition of a chronic injury?

 

I agree. A pass rushing DT who is a constant threat to disrupt is a rare commodity. What about those injuries though? And his weight? He's listed at 299 and he'll be going up against 320+ pounders in the NFL.

 

He won the Bronco Nagurski Trophy this year while playing injured, and it's safe to say that since he's only got one football game left in his college career before the 2008 NFL season, worrying about his injuries is a waste of time right now. (Remember Ted Ginn's foot?)

Dorsey routinely gets double- and triple-teamed in college, and usually beats those efforts to get at the QB. If you project a college triple-team to an NFL double-team, Dorsey's odds of still being able to rush up the center look pretty good.

 

Why do you keep acting like back and knee injuries are minor and nothing to worry about? Do you realize that his knees and spine are whats holding up his 300lb frame?

The last thing we need is the next Trevor Pryce!

 

And Ginn was hurt making a play in the Title Game, will Dorsey even play in the title game?

And it is interesting to note that Ted Ginn of 12/09/07 looks much better then TG of Sept 07, as in much faster and more confident running down the field.

Ginn may be finally healed of his liz francs sprain.

In the NFL?

 

Do you realize that he's been hurt this entire year and has won the award for best defensive player in the country anyway? He has eight months from now until the beginning of the 2008 season to recover from injuries that didn't prevent him from doing his thing.

Please explain why we should disregard the possibility of drafting Dorsey based on two injuries that have not prevented him from excelling.

 

My point exactly. A double team in the NFL means two 320+ pound guys on a guy that's 299. Regardless of quickness, how can that possibly be an advantage?

 

Given that he's played this season with injuries and has a month off to rest and recuperate, yes, I would say it's about a 95% chance he plays in the national title game. I would go so far as to say that Dorsey's performance means the difference between a win and a loss for LSU in that game.

Being a rookie in a league where everyone is faster has nothing to do with that, of course.

Yes, in the NFL.

 

The award can be chalked up to hype Desides, I know you are a Dorsey fan, did have the "best" season of anyone in the country on Defense?

Did he have as good a year as he did in 2006? What should that tell us about the utility of the award?

On a serious note, do you or anyone else have any idea of the nature or severity of Glenn Dorsey's injuries?

Glenn Dorsey's health status is only one factor, he is a high character player, the pertinent question (for me) is he is on a team of very good players, if he plays in the title game, who are the Olineman that he will be up against and are they NFL caliber players?

 

Yes.

That tells us that even hurt, Dorsey played better than anyone else in the country.

Clearly they aren't career-threatening if he can play through them.

 

I don't think it would be the dumbest decision ever. I just don't believe Dorsey at #1 is the right decision. If we draft Dorsey with our 1st round pick, I believe it should be in the event of us trading down and still getting a Top 5 pick. I believe Dorsey's stock will fall a bit, or be neutral while others climb up. McFadden, a QB or 2 (possibly Ryan and Woodson), maybe Laurinaitus (sp?), and Chris Long will all have wonderful combines and have their stock rise. Maybe Dorsey has that same combine, etc. I just think you have to take a guy that will change the course of your team right away. I think McFadden does that the most.

 

What is your yard stick for saying that?

No, he only won a vote.

So you don't know either the nature or extent of the injuries?

 

We will see, it should be interesting to see who we sign in FA.

 

People with no medical qualifications need to refrain from giving medical opinions.

 

Good idea, does anyone with any medical qualifications know anything about the nature or extent of his injuries?

 

No, but there are some clear assumptions from the fact that he has continued to play with it. It's almost certainly not a chronic issue, or something that will lead to one.

Wow that's edgy.

PS- You are failing pretty badly at what you are trying to do here.

 

I thought it was his knee?

 

I'm just saying you are really shocking people and creating quite a stir. This is certainly going to live on in infamy a whole 30 seconds after you get banned.

 

lets wait for the new year, he should be healthy for the Buckeyes

the only thing I have against the pick would be the fact that DT's have a short shelf life

Dorsey would be a solid, non-sexy choice, a wise Patriot-style choice

after watching Eli Manning and Alex Smith, suddenly solid doen't seem so bad

 

Ok, so becuase he might be a Tim bowens, one of the best DTs the phins have ever had we shouldn't draft him? Yeah, that would suck if he could only play 10 years for us! Was that really your point?

Guess what? McFadden and Dorsey have the same number of NFL rushing yards and touchdowns! You think you know, but you don't know what a player will do in the NFL, until they are in the NFL. Until then you kind of have to go by their college film.

This McFadden vs Dorsey thing is starting to get silly. Dorsey has had a great year playing hurt and was the best player on his team. McFadden had a great year playing unhurt and was the best player on his team. Both are great players and at this point could be the number one overall pick and a Miami Dolphin next year. Neither should cause the heart burn that Ginn did. Then Ginn shouldn’t have caused that heartburn either.

I lean towards Dorsey over McFadden as I see Dorsey filling the bigger need. This doesn’t mean I think McFadden sucks or that I will try to dismiss his accomplishments. I read a lot of McFadden supporters trying to do this. Most of the five thousand threads on the subject seem to go like this: (I am not directing this at padre or any specific poster)

“He had a sucky year and he sucks! He barely played. He was only good last year”

Um, he did just win the Lombardi Award (best interior lineman in the country) and also won the Bronko Nagurski (best defensive player in country). Both this year!

“HAHA nope he sucks, and I know, I’m a random guy on the internet.”

Well so am I, and when I saw him play he was dominant, drawing triple teams even when he played hurt.

“Sorry dude, McFadden is the truth, if he was a DT he would draw quintuple teams and still score touchdowns! Did I mention that he scores touchdowns! Touchdown! TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!!

Ok, you win, gotta run now. Have fun coloring at school.

TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!​

That was, um, “liberal paraphrasing”, but I have seen posts saying that scoring was more important than stopping the other team from scoring; there for we must draft McFadden. Like our points counted double or something.

 

Ohh, but we will paying him 20 million (or whatever) we can't afford him...

Tim Bowens was a late round pick, not the #1 overall.

Jeff Cross played for us 8 years and made one pro bowl (maybe more) and he was a late round pick when that meant something.

Point being, we have good chance to make something out of this draft, run plugging DT's are a not that hard to find.

That is as long as you realize that you need them, they tend to break down quickly.

One player has film from 2007, the other from 2006, which ones would those be?

Turns out McFadden played with bruised ribs, those were the games when F. Jones got the ball instead of McF.

For me, I liked Okoye and from what I read on FH, I was certain that Brady Quinn was our guy...Ted Ginn/Brady Quinn, I thought ESPN made a mistake...

Actually that was one of the more amusing things that I've read tonight...

I know, We can play Dorsey at OLB, Safety, DE, MLB, NT and he may as well return kicks.....

Actually my point is our offense is much closer to being palatable then our defense is, 5 holes in the leaky bucket vs 14, Even Bowens needed help..

 

No one knows who will be better in the NFL...NO ONE. That being said NFL draft experts say that both Dorsey and Mcfadden are worthy of the #1 pick, so the idea that one is these guys is a HUGE mistake is just an opinion. Both could be busts, both could be mega superstars, but right now they are both amazing prospects worthy of the #1 pick. So have your opinions on who will be better and who we should pick but you have no idea who will be better. People using history to make your points reminds me of people using the bible to pick and choose what they want to make their points. Anyone can do that to make a point. And its usually so biased that it makes me sick. Dorsey could be the best DT ever and redefine the position. Mcfadden could be the best back ever, breaking rushing records. Who knows? As for injuries and shelf life its a case by case thing. Keith Traylor is a DT and has been in the league for 16 yrs. So kill that noise.

For me I look at what we need as a team. Right now I think DT and DE would be where i would go. And it just so happens that there are players in those positions that are ranked high in the draft. If I went with DT I would go after a DE in free agency and vice versa. I'm not totally against Mcfadden either. After Ronnie went down it opened the door for that option. The #1 pick is only going to be a small part in a entire offseason plan we must have. There are tons of things we need and could approach it in many ways both through the draft and free agency. If we can get a better DT in free agency then get Chris Long. If we can get a better DE in FA then draft Dorsey. If Ronnie is done maybe draft Mcfadden. I think its not as simple as Dorsey sucks draft Mcfadden. Oh and the dude that said winning the Defensive player of the year means nothing is just weird, so many great NFL players won that award. Suggs, Sapp, Champ Baily, Dan Morgan, Roy Williams, and Woodson. Show some Respect.

They are both worthy of the #1 pick, lets see what happens.

 

Long time no time Pinky....EXCELLENT post. I love it when history gets brought into the picture....post more my friend.

 

I rarely post in the Finheaven main forum, though if more posts were like this I would.

 

I totally agree...once FH is up again we may have a candidate for the "freebie".

 

I'm sorry, mate, but this is utter nonsense. If you are running a 3-4 scheme, there isn't a position as important as NT - not OLB, not DB and certainly not DE. There are not absolute position values; everything depends on the system you are running. In a basic 4-3 defense, DT becomes somewhat less of a value position than in a 3-4 defense. Likewise, CB and S are not as important in the Tampa 2 defense than they are in other schemes.

The bottom line is: If the FO wants to stick to the 3-4 (or rather Capers' hybrid version of it) than they'd do good to find a strong NT fast. Traylor might well retire after the season is over and Soliai isn't ready to take his spot by any means. Dorsey would be the logical pick then. If the FO decides to go back to the 4-3 (and there's some legitimate reasoning to do; the lack of 3-4 talent being the most glaring), then Chris Long becomes a very strong possibility simply because the D-line needs an upgrade and DE is more valuable in a 4-3 than DT is. Besides, Holliday and Wright would make strong DTs in a 4-3. None of them, however, is capeable of playing NT in a 3-4.

The bottom bottom line: If you want to stick to Capers and his defensive schemes, you go Dorsey. If he ends up grading high on your board that is.

 

Dorsey isnt a pure run stopping DT.

Uh no. DT is one of the position with the highest longevities. You know how many non kickers and quarterbacks are older than Keith Traylor(38) and Ted Washington(39)? Did you just notice the Vikings gave Pat Williams(35) a sizable contract extension?

 

Compared to both Bowens and Gardner?

Both of those guys are in that age range and they are long gone out of the league....

 

I dont understand the point you are apparently trying to make here. Two defensive tackles we drafted played for a good amount of time in the league is somehow proof of a lack of longevity for the position?

Here's a homework assignment- Find how many non- K/P positions have more players in the league over 35 years of age.