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Davone Bess "most dynamic WR on the roster this season?"

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Styla, Jul 6, 2009.

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  1. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    we all hope that he poses a deep threat, and keeps the defense honest ... actually, we need him to do that; but as Bess, Turner (and maybe Cam) produce, it will take away some of his double teams as teams will dare him to burn them.

    a very quick definition of a #2 ... a complementary player who performs well against single coverage and zone, but falters against double teams and special attention. a #1 can take on the extra attention and maintain his success, because outside of their abilities - they are physically and mentally tough.
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I agree with the first part. The Bills last year decieded to test him by taking away the double teams and he destroyed them.

    I understand the concept of #1 and #2 recievers. I have yet to hear many coaches if any use the concept and good coaches can get around not having a true "#1" reciever. It is my opinion that #1 recievers are used more by fans and anaylsis and if the media never asked the coaches the questions about #1 recievers they would never use the term.
     
  3. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    from that perspective, you are right ... a good coach would never refer to any of his WRs as a #1, etc .... and certainly, not every team has one. they are special players ... just like Ray Lewis is as a ILB. henceforth, i will only refer to #1s as elite players ...

    equally, i am not inferring that this team needs an elite WR. additionally, it is not a Parcells staple. having multiple threats negates the requirement of needing that 'elite' player. that's where we are heading, multiple threats, pick your poison ... accept your punishment.

    the precipitous of the entire Ginn vs #1 is and always will be where he was drafted, and when his contract is up ... how much $$$$$ he is paid. time will tell - but he is nowhere near elite today.
     
  4. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    To be honest, not many players are expected to be elite unless they are drafted in the top three. I mean, everyone has their flaws and there are rarely more than three guys that people say "this guy is going to be elite."

    Calvin Johnson was one guy that everyone knew would be elite and he is. He's putting up numbers in Detroit of all places. Ted Ginn was the #9 overall pick, not the #1 or #2 pick. He doesn't have to be an elite WR to be considered a success.

    He was drafted at #9. There are plenty of success stories at #9 (Kevin Williams first comes to mind) but there are plenty of failure stories at #9 (Reggie Williams is the first one on my list). I think if Ginn can just pull off 800-900 yard seasons every year, he will be on that success story list. I think he's more than capable of doing so. The only way he'll be on the failure book in my list is if he's not putting up a consistent 700+ yards. If he's putting up 700 yards per season he won't be a failure but he won't be a success, IMO.
     
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  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Isn't there two more years after this one on his contract? That is really looking far into the future.

    I do agree with that for the most part. Right now I would not call Ginn elite. I still think there is a chance that Ginn can become an elite reciever. If the guy becomes half the route runner as Bess and develops an ability to find an open spot, he would be very dangerous due to his amazing speed.

    I do not think he will be a top 5 reciever, however I do think he can become a top 10 or 15.
     
  6. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    something ginn has shown signs of, i.e. jets and seahawks games.
     
  7. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    excellent reciever
     
  8. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    I don't see Ginn having anything near monster talent. I think he has exceptional straight line speed but I could find you someone to pay 700K per year that can run in a straight line fast.

    His hands are not exceptional
    His route running is not exceptional
    His drive to get the extra yardage is not exceptional
    His ball handling is not exceptional.

    OK so assuming he gets open, catches the ball, doesn't fumble he's a good open field runner. If he was gone tomorrow I wouldn't miss him he's like the ghost of Chris Chambers where I end up cringing more than celebrating when he's involved in a play.

    Take away that Buffalo game and really what did you have last season?

    As for that Buffalo game even a blind pig finds a truffle once in a while.

    Please Ted Ginn Jr. make me eat my words, I hope his season is so good that everybody on this board makes me remember this post and I will eat my hat with a steak knife.
    (end rant not directed towards any person other than Ginn).
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm assuming you do not like Ted Ginn Jr.
     
  10. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    It isn't dislike as much as it is that I don't think he ever will be a great receiver and I can't get that excited over 790 yards considering 175 came in one game and he only averaged like 41 yards per game the rest of the season.

    I think he's a poor return on investment. (Not his fault, he didn't make Cameron pick him at #9).

    He is certainly the fastest WR on the team, but that's the only claim he can make. I know if it were 4th and goal with the game on the line he's not the one I expect to win the game for us.
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It was his second year. There are plenty of receivers that put up similar numbers, then exploded in their third season.
     
  12. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    To say he doesnt have good hands is silly. Ginn has very solid hands. In fact if there is one very real positive amongst our WR core is that they don't drop passes and can make the tough catch. Ginn is all we got to a credible #1. It will be a scary day if we have to depend on Bess or Cammy as the top guy.
     
  13. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    And I sincerely hope he does.

    You're right he doesn't have bad hands, but he also didn't missed quite a few playable balls so I wouldn't say he had great hands either.

    In the back half of the season when Bess caught 40 passes for 441 yards against Ginn who caught 26 for 400

    Bess was every bit as important the back half of the season as Ginn.

    I fear the day we have to rely on Ginn as our #1 because that means our #1 will be invisible unless he really steps up his game this year.
     
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  14. 124

    124 Banned

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    He's already a better receiver than Ted Ginn.
     
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  15. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    So what's it mean if Bess doesn't have a game next year where he gets 130+ yards? He must be pretty f'n bad then, huh? :rolleyes:
     
  16. 124

    124 Banned

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    God I am so glad you are here posting. You can say things I can't say without getting bashed on. :lol:
     
  17. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    I love how people take Ginn's unbelievably speed and turn it around to take a shot at him. To say that he has just "straight line speed" is just inaccurate.
     
  18. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I would bash you the same as anyone else. :up:
     
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  19. 124

    124 Banned

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    Well, yeah, you would. But there are plenty who even if I said "Dolphins will go 15-1" would ***** at me and call me an idiot Jet fan cause I didn't say they'd go 16-0. :lol:
     
  20. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    As opposed to relying on Bess as our #1, when it takes him 14 more receptions to only gain 41 more yards?

    Let's face it if we have to rely on any of our WRs as a "traditional #1" we will be in a lot of trouble. That is not what our team is set up for, that is not how our QB plays.
     
  21. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    CT isnt mindlessly bashing like some would do on FH. He is just giving constructive criticism, instead of all caps crap(BUSSSST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

    Now Bess was avery good role player last season, I expect that role to increase as he takes snaps from Camarillo. I'm not hating on Greg, its just that he's on the mend from the ACL tear and everyone heals differently. So one would naturally assume he'd be bumped up on the depth chart while Turner and Camarillo split time as the No.3 WR.

    I do agree that Bess wouldnt have as many oppertunities as he did, if Ginn wasnt being doubled most of time.
     
  22. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    You're talking about a guy who was drafted #9 overall, not #1 overall. You can't expect the 9th overall to be an elite player. A good starter? That's acceptable, but there isn't ten elite players in every draft no matter what people think.

    Ted Ginn was very raw coming out of college with a lot of upside. There were definitely more "NFL Ready" receivers out there than Ginn (Dwayne Bowe is one that comes to mind) but looking at what everyone else has done in Ginn's draft class, I'd say he's ahead of schedule. The only receivers in that draft class I'd take over Ginn is Calvin Johnson (no brainer) and Dwayne Bowe (again, no brainer). I would not take Anthony Gonzalez as even playing across a great wide receiver in Reggie Wayne with a fantastic quarterback, he still is mediocre. I would not take Steve Breaston because his numbers are overblown because of playing across an elite wide receiver in Larry Fitzgerald and playing in a stretch the field type of offense. I would not take any other wide receiver in the 2007 Draft over Ginn than the two mentioned previusly.

    It's been two years, why does there have to be so much dead-set "He is going to suck, not amount to ****" type of thinking? A lot of players don't explode onto the scene in their first or second year, especially one that was extremely raw coming into the NFL. I'll admit that Ginn would have been better off playing another year in college, but I will not say that Ginn's selection was a bad one. There are always better selections to make when hindsight is involved, but that's a rather silly way of trying to win an argument.

    Tony Sparano took the time to single out Ginn, it wasn't a question "how is Ginn doing?" but a question "who has improved the most this offseason?"

    Ginn has solid route running and is improving. Sparano even said so himself. His hands are certainly not bad, but no worse than any other wide receiver on this team. I watched every game and I'd say that there were very few balls that I would say Ginn upset me about because they dropped it. In fact, the team in general didn't drop many balls in my recollection. I specifically remember Ginn dropping a pass though and on the sidelines you seen him doing a pass catching drill by himself. That says a lot about him, he could have just sat down and pouted but no... He was trying to better himself. Every wide receiver drops passes, don't give me a Holier Than Thou type attitude that we have the only wide receivers that do.

    Ginn doesn't always go for the extra yards, but who gives a ****? Marvin Harrison ducked down to avoid contact because he was small and didn't wanna get lit up/injured. I don't really care if Ginn ducks down because I don't want to see him get injured. There is a magnifying glass on Ginn's every single move. Everything that he does, even though there are elite wide receivers doing the same, seems to be an issue.

    Ginn does have some fumbling issues, but he seemed to improve on that later in the season. If Ginn can make a big stride off a 790 yard season, then I will be very happy. I think he will. Davone Bess is not the most dynamic wide receiver on the team, Ted Ginn Jr. is. You can call Davone Bess the safest wide receiver, probably even the most polished wide receiver. But you need to learn your vocabulary if you think Davone Bess is the most dynamic. He doesn't give you that "Take it to the house at any given moment" factor. You have that with Ginn. It's just that simple.
     
  23. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    No, what I'm saying his that his year was already marginal and if you take the one excellent game out it was seriously sub part. If next year he posts one good game and a bunch of turds in the punchbowl then yes I'm going to say he's pretty f'n bad.

    I tend to find myself on the unpopular end of many of these discussions. I don't know if I expect too much, am overly critical or just don't wear rose colored glasses for my own team.


    Is that fast speed what makes him sloppy at running routes? Give me a crisp route that puts the receiver where he is supposed to be on a timing play over the guy that gets there fast (but can't get open anyway).
     
  24. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Constructive criticism is telling someone's weaknesses so they can better themselves.

    Constructive criticism is not saying you do not particularly like the player and would not care if he was taken off the roster right now.

    I'm OK with him taking the other side of the fence, so to say. But that certainly is not constructive criticism he if offering. It's just an opposing opinion....
     
  25. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    Do you know their first down conversion stats from last season? And you're right I don't think we can pretend to have a true #1 but a solid corps of receivers will benefit just the same.

    Camarillo stands the most to lose in this equation, but we are running into a good problem to have depth at WR with many people contributing different talent sets. I'm very eager to see the rookies this pre-season.

    Good write up.

    I don't compare him against his draft class that would be like trying to parallel O'Brien & Marino based on the fact that they had a simliar draft status.

    I'm not saying we should have drafted so and so. I will say I don't think he merited the selection that we took him at, but I've seen a lot bigger reaches in the draft that Ginn.

    Where you don't care about the extra yardage thing it's one of my top pet peeves because as you know sometimes a first down wins or loses a game and my thought is that if you don't care enough to dig for that yard your lacking something. Injuries can and do happen, it's part of the game but I can't ever remember thinking I wish he had just fallen down and not tried to pick up the extra yard after an injury.

    As for taking it to the house my feeling is that Bess will be more likely to take a 10 yard out and run 60 because of his extra effort where Ginn will be more likely to give up on a play rather than risk being hit.

    If you're talking a fly pattern - yea no doubt Ginn just because he's faster than hell.

    I love Chad Pennington but the way our team built with Chad at QB there is more potential for Bess to succeed based on his particular skill sets against those that Ginn possess.

    And I'll say it again - I hope with all my hear that Ginn steps up just like you think he can.
     
  26. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    Are you saying there aren't players that you wouldn't miss off this roster? Are there no players that you think this team could do without or that we couldn't replace?

    I would be hard pressed to believe you if you said that were the case.

    And I'm not trying to bust balls here, but you picked that particular statement to take exception with.
     
  27. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Same can be said about Santonio Holmes. But seasons aren't evaluated on what would have happened if this didn't happen, you go by what did. That great game did happen, and not because a blind pig found a truffle. You are trying to marginalize success he did have in order to further your argument that his season was sub-par (which it wasn't).
     
  28. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Ginn had 36 FDs on 56 catches (not counting rushing FDs), and Bess had 29 FDs on 54 catches. Ginn also had twice as many TDs (which isn't saying much).
     
  29. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    I don't want Santonio Holmes either lol

    It's safe to say that you and I have differening opinions of sub-par and that's A-OK (I look at more than yards, including things like fumbles, drops, extra effort, punt returns etc...)

    I'm not trying to marginalize that one game I"m just saying it was the exception rather than the rule last year.

    He needs to do more this season to get the ball in his hands, up his average by a catch or two per game and 20 yards or so and he'll be solid. I'll believe it when I see it and if he does have the potential to do it as many of you think he does I think our current coaching staff will get it out of him.

    That was part of my frustration with Ginn is that I felt at times his hesitation may have cost him getting into the end zone.

    His instincts as much as anythings just seemed timid.
     
  30. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    So what failed with Bess on him not getting into the end zone?
     
  31. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    First I would say that Ginn was still a bigger go to in the red zone.

    Second Bess didn't get nearly the chances early on in the seaon.

    I'm very confident that if it had been a full season of the two of the side by side Bess would have trumped Ginn in catches, and TD's. Probably would have had similar yards and Ginn would have had a higher YPC
     
  32. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    :confused2:

    Then why did Bess have 5 catches inside the 20 and Ginn only 3?

    I mean none of Ginn's 4 Tds came in the red zone.

    2nd, Bess' lone Td came in week 7 which was before he started getting more chances (it was a 7yd TD btw).
     
  33. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    PS: You said you look at more than just yards, and you mentioned fumbles. Well Ginn did have 5 fumbles, but guess how many he lost?



    0.

    Guess how many Bess lost?

    1 more than Ginn



    So I guess in a full season side by side, we could expect Bess to lose even more fumbles than Ginn.
     
  34. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    brother more catches doesn't mean more opportunities it just means fewer of them hit the ground.

    Didn't Ginn catch the flea flicker pass in the end zone?

    Do you know why Ginn didn't lose those fumbles because on most of them he was running scared to get out of bounds and the fumble went out of bounds it certainly wasn't because he dove on them in fact if it weren't for the sideline he would have lost 2-3 of them.
     
  35. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Yes, but it was a 39 yard reception. Not even close to the red zone.

    More catches might not mean more opportunities, but I guarantee Bess got as many red zone chances as Ginn (if not more).

    God you're so full of ****. He fumbled out of bounds in the buffalo game when the linebacker caught him from behind as he was trying to shake away Whitner's pursuit. He wasn't running scared or even trying to get out of bounds.

    Aside from that I'd take a fumble out of bounds versus a lost fumble any day of the week.
     
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  36. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    There certainly are players I would not miss that are on the roster... I'm not attached to every single one. It wouldn't bother me to see Camarillo off the roster simply because I think his injury has pushed him away along with the emergence of Bess. With Turner showing a lot in camp, it just wouldn't kill me to see him cut.

    I was saying that you provided an argument against a few of Ginn's abilities, but bringing a comment like that to the table... doesn't seem so much like constructive criticism. Maybe it's just me, but I never really think as a pessimistic view as constructive criticism. Sorry if you're offended but the pessimism comment, but that's how I always look at arguments over a subject. An optimistic side and a pessimistic side. The people who think they are realistic, not other side... the "I'm not an optimist or a pessimist... I'm a realist" approach are kidding themselves (and rather full of themselves, to be honest).
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    who told you you could speak :angry:
     
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  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Ginn wont really blossom until Henne is throwing too him. So far he's had Green, Beck, Lemon and Pennington. Penny is the only one played well but with his weak arm he doesnt play into Ginn's strengths. Ginn also needs someone to take away coverage from him. I'm betting that Turner may do some of that. We'll see. My take on Ginn is dont write him off until you see Henne in the game. Ginn needs a strong armed QB to shine
     
  39. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I forget which game it was but it was one of the last few games last season, may have been vs the jesters but not pos. It was a goal line play from about the 5-7 yd line Penny dropped back to pass and Bess ran a short routs off the R side to about the 1 yd line, when Bess turned around to face Chad for the ball three defenders jumped him and left (can't remember backup fullbacks name) WIDE open for a TD. That showed me that opposing defenses were worried about him..a lot.
     
  40. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Boy it's funny, I just went through all the play by plays, and Ginn was only thrown 4 passes in the red zone (caught 3), while Bess was thrown to 9 times (caught 5). So you're right, more catches doesn't mean more opportunities, but in this case Bess had way more opportunities.
     

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