Why is it that no one has mentioned NE? I feel that they have the best out of all 4. I rarely see Brady get sacked and no matter what RB they fill in, they do well.
Cassel was sacked close to 40 times last season, alot of the Pats success comes when the Qb is hit as they throw, and all those sacks are a part of the reason why the Pats may not be as good as people ("experts") would like to think.
Brick before this year wasn't that good of a LT. His first two years he gave up 23 sacks. Last year was a solid year of pass protecting in terms of sacks given up but considering his draft position and the contract paid to him, I think he could do better. Woody had an ok year in pass blocking. 6.5 sacks and 5 penalties.
Well, I'm really curious to see something..anything that can back this statement up. Something factual, anyway. Something tangible and measurable that will show me that the Jets' OL is "clearly head and shoulders above every team" in the AFCE.
IMO Long>D'Brick (not close at all) Smiley=Faneca (backed up by the POA numbers) Grove<Mangold (but Grove is close) Thomas<Moore (the injury hurts Thomas here, otherwise I think Thomas is better) Carey>Woody (this one is close though)
You arent talking about Damien Woody are you? The same Damien Woody that was cut by and did not perform with the Lions? Thats a good one.. thanks for the laugh bro
Mangold is easily a Top 3 Center in the NFL. Everyone regards him as such. Everyone. But the Jet haters on here will ignore this, PS17, you just have to learn to live with it like I did. Not everyone is like that though, many people watch the games and listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to the game, like ex players and such, but some will just wear those colored glasses. Its all good. No point losing sleep over it. We could have Anthony Munoz out there, but Jake Long would still be better. Just learn to deal with it, sit back and laugh at the people who bash Mangold and Faneca, and deal. If they can't see that they are clear clut HUGE upgrades and Top 3 at their positions, so be with it.
I'm not bashing either those two or the OL. But show me something that indicates the Jets' OL is clearly better than ours. Something measurable.
I agree with you on Mangold. I don't think that top 3 is an exaggeration. I think he was a huge part of the Jets good OL performance last year. He's actually one of the reasons I'm excited about the addition of Grove. Mangold is proof that having a great pivot can really upgrade your OL. I don't think Grove is top 3, but he is very good and ideally suited, style-wise for our division. I don't agree on D'Brick. I see him as a top 20 LT and that's it. He's helped by Faneca who is still playing at a high level. I see Mangold and Faneca as the strength of that line. I'm not impressed with Moore. I see him as a space filler. I wouldn't feel any more confident about the Dolphin's line if we had Moore instead of Thomas/Murphy. I think Woody is good to very good, but VC is now reached the point where he is very good to dominant.
I don't see anyone bashing Goldylocks. I do see you exagerating about him though. He is not a GREAT Center! He is very good. Now you go ahead and take it as a bash if you wish. Take it as someone wearing colored glasses if you wish. Tell us we don't watch Jets games. Tell us you know better because you do. It's ok but the bottom line is it's nothing more than your opinion just like those of us who know nothing...
noone's bashing anyone, but top 3 is going a little too far. Players like Jason Brown, andre gurode, nick hardwick, olin kruetz, Jeff Saturday, Matt Birk, are far better than Mangold. Although one thing Mangold has going for him in comparison to these players is his age
The Bills OL is young and needs to prove it out on the field before they even enter this discussion, but there is talent there. New England's OL has always been middle of the pack when it comes to protecting Brady and last year they completely fell off the map in terms of protection. Whether that was due to Cassel holding onto the ball too long or not, they were pretty bad last year. Miami has too many question marks and health concerns along the interior of the OL to really be considered the best. Thomas is a complete unknown and injuries have plagued him. Smiley is a hard worker, but injuries are a concern as well. Grove hasn't been able to stay healthy throughout his career either, and after watching some of the plays from last year with the Raiders, he was pushed around far too often for a guy that is billed as a strong C. One play really sticks out in my mind, he was walked into the backfield like a football sled, not exactly what you want to see. So until Miami can prove that they can stay healthy and the interior OL can play consistently, the Jets have the best OL.
best will be determined on field, in a game, across the expanse of the season I believe the Orca-5 will emerge within the top five Offensive Lines in the NFL fielded in 2009 just have to wait & see they have to play the game
A couple of things that come to mind... I think its fair to say that injuries can hit any team, any player at any time. So actually if one wants to point to injury history as an aggravator then maybe it would be more fair to say we have the worst line in the division. Now IMO within the context of this kind of debate the fair thing is to add the qualifier "if healthy"......otherwise one can always play the injury thing. For instance most everyone gave the nod to Brady as the best QB. But he's coming off a very serious injury and he's still got to prove that his knee is going to be okay, doesn't he? So really with Brady getting everyone's vote there's this unstated "if healthy" that is being included in those people's thought process as they vote. It all needs to be across the board with these "who's the best" polls. Otherwise everyone's injury history needs to be taken into consideration. With that said, even if I concede the Jets' line as being better, not one person has offered up any evidence to support the belief that their line is "clearly head and shoulders above" any other team in the division.
understand your concern Friend Mariok have had the same thought @ one time or another but it does make an interesting statement: 1) loosely interpreted to mean those creatures that live (generically) in the seas. Dolphins, Whales & Orcas unlike sea lions. seals or turtles would be included in that term, even though they are as a matter of fact mammals & not fish... 2) GoFish! as in Take that! or generally telling someone euphemistically to go away. 3) is an excepted part of the the vernacular of the fans in DolFandom.
There are 2 major differences when comparing Brady's injury to those of our OLmen. 1. Brady suffered 1 injury, whereas our interior OL have missed significant time throughout their careers. Thomas has yet to play a full NFL game, Smiley missed 8 games in '07 and had a season ending injury last year causing him to miss 4 games (5 if you count the playoffs). Grove is the worst of the bunch, he's missed 26 games in the last 5 years, so durability issues are a major concern for our interior OL, history shows that they have a problem staying healthy. Brady suffered one injury and he's already fully participating in every workout, which brings us to... 2. Brady doesn't play a position that is anywhere near as physical as the OL. Brady uses his legs to drop back and shift in the pocket and he will have had plenty of time to heal and gain confidence in his knee before the games count. As I pointed out before, he has been working out running, cutting, planting, jumping, etc since before the NFC championship game. Miami fans who think that his leg is still an issue are engaging in wishful thinking. The OLmen play a very physical and demanding position that requires them to use every part of their body on every play for strength, gaining leverage, etc. It's totally different and really not a good comparison. A QB plays one of the least physically demanding positions in the game, the OL play the most physically demanding, so IMO it would be much easier for Brady to come back with few, if any, problems, complications or issues.
Fair enough. Really I just kind of pulled the QB/Brady comparison out of my butt because I'm trying to make a point. You're right though, Brady is probably a poor example. On the other hand, for the purpose of these polls, at what point do we say injuries aren't going to be a factor when we're voting for "the best"? Do Ronnie Brown's past injuries factor in? Why or why not? Even with Brady's injury not being considered a determining factor is it fair to say Pennington is 2nd best; in spite of his own injury history? Again I think the blanket qualifier should be "if healthy" But if not what injury history guidelines are fair to use? Yeah, yeah I know; I'm making much ado over nothing L2G, but it's the offseason and you're always a great person to debate with. You've usually got your s*** together
True to an extent. Our Miami Dolphin is a porpoise or is it a bottlenose dolphin. Porpoises are small cetaceans of the family Phocoenidae; they are related to whales and dolphins. They are distinct from dolphins, although the word "porpoise" (pronounced /ˈpɔrpəs/) has been used to refer to any small dolphin, especially by sailors and fishermen. The most obvious visible difference between the two groups is that porpoises have flattened, spade-shaped teeth distinct from the conical teeth of dolphins, and shorter beaks. But they are Dolphins sort of and are definitely related to them... However, and you should know this living in South Florida. There is a fish called Dolphins and they're mighty tasty...
Dolphins. Orcas, Whales, Fish, whatever the Orca-5 will eat defense alive our Miami Dolphins will never again be manhandled in the turbulent waters of a brutal NFL these Dolphins have become predators, not to be trifled with or taken lightly you swim @ your own risk! no more Flipper our Dolphins are KillerWhales
that list, as with others like it, means absolutely nothing. Just some arsehole's opinion. Personally I would not give much credence to list that includes Sam Baker after playing part of one season, as the 20th OT in the league.
Not sure how we are having a discussion about Mangold being the #1 C in the league, when the a piece of the supporting evidence is: "He doesn't overwhelm with physical tools and there isn't one aspect of his game that stands out, but he does everything well." (straight from the SN link) I would expect any #1 in ANYTHING would stand out in some aspect. This merely says he's solid, no weaknesses, but that's merely above average. A true #1 stands out from the crowd.
Not that anyone should dream of picking Buffalo as having the best o-line, but this lineup is just wrong. In fact, the projected lineup doesn't have a single guy where you have him. You got a couple of guys here who don't have a chance to start this year. Here is what is probably going to happen, at least at first: LT - Langston Walker LG - Eric Wood C - Geoff Hangartner RG - Andy Levitre RT - Brad Butler The Tackle positions are the only two guys on the line from last year, and they are both being moved from the positions they played last year...there are two rookies at the Guard positions, and the Center is a free agent acquisition from the Panthers. There might be a tweek here or there, and there might be a little rotation, but there is not a single position that is being manned by the same player as last year on the entire line. We haven't seen this line yet, so it's a huge question mark, which is different from saying that they are bad. And, yeah, I'm a Bills fan. Here's how I'd rank the AFC lines: 1) Patriots - three Pro Bowlers on that squad...hard to argue against that. 2) Jets - the Jets also have 3 guys that have been to the Pro Bowl, but I'd put them below the Patriots if only slightly. 3) Dolphins - Jake Long is going to real good for a long time. 4) Bills...even I gotta put them at the bottom until they show us who they are. The Pro Bowl doesn't mean everything. It just happens to be the thing I mentioned. Also, how the players at the so-called skill positions do always play a big factor on how a line looks, and vice-versa.
Until Miami can run between the tackles consistently, I'll give the Jets the slight nod. I will maintain though that Miami has the best pair of OT's in the division.
Assuming we don't get the injury bug (big if, I know) between the tackles like last year, I think we will be able to do just that this season. Three of the four lines in our division are close indeed. And if Buffalo's young guys play well and the relocated starters gel quickly, all four could be pretty closely matched at the end of the season.
