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Satele Traded to The Raiders

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PerfectTeam, Mar 23, 2009.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Bottom line- this is business, and business is ruthless.... and other teams don't care about our feelings or "giving us what he's really worth. Unfortunately a center in the type of system Sam fits does not have as much value as the center in our current type of system.

    Factor in that there are at least 5 centers in this draft that might be better than Satele....and the fact that we have no leverage in trades b/c we acquired Grove, and it's impossible to get a team to give us more than what we got b/c they know we'll take less to get a deal done. :wink2: If we did the trade before acquiring Grove, we might have gotten more from Sam.
     
  2. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't mean to be disrespectful, but Oakland didn't run the Wildcat last year. When you exclude the Wildcat from our run game, we ran for 3.0 YPC all season up the middle....and half of those games were against teams who were 20th or worse vs the run. I would think that would count for dead last any and every year!! LOL. Verse the AFCE, our numbers dropped to 2.7 YPC and a total of 76 yards. You still think Grove isn't an upgrade? :wink2:
     
  3. mroz

    mroz Fix the OL Club Member

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    good points and I would like to add that "up the middle" includes the guards. Personally, I don't know much about the raiders guards but they are just as much a part of the problem as Groves (assuming Groves was part of the problem).
     
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I actually took it a step farther and crunched the numbers off Center. LOL.
     
  5. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    I am not happy with this trade at all. For one we got hosed on compensation and for another we really could have used Satele on the line, at least for depth. What a bunch of horse ****.
     
  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The other thing to think about is: Sporano and Co could have someone targeted in the top of the 4th who will be gone by say pick #15. The difference between getting their targeted player and a player who is there for us at our normal pick could be huge.
    Without a 6th rounder, we would more than likely have to give up our 5th if we want to move up the boards.

    Compare this to trading Satele and not only do we move up for a targeted player, but we get to keep our 5th while getting an extra 6th in the process.... so you could almost look at this as a net difference of 3 picks rather than just the 2 that are implied.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Now you're just insulting the FO/Coach/BP who brought us from 1-15 to 11-5 w/o even bringing in a ton of new talent. Have some faith will ya. Gees.

    If you're this sure that this is a mistake, you could always follow Samson over to Oakland and start sporting the silver and black. LOL.
     
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  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't mean to be harsh but...for any of you who disagree that this was a good trade: I've said it before and I'll say it again. "You don't win SuperBowls with backups." Show me one and I'll tattoo I love Tom Brady on my forehead!! ;)

    1 back up is NOT better than the potential of having 2 starters. One backup is NOT better than the potential of having 1 starter and 1 backup..... and 1 back up still is NOT better than having 2 back ups. With the track record of drafting, I'd like to think we'd get at least 1 impact player out of these 2 picks.

    If you factor in the possiblility that we were going move up in the 4th round if we didn't do this trade, you can add in the fact that we'd be saving ourselves from having to give up and exta pick. Now that's 3 picks that have a shot to impact verses a guaranteed back up. Cmon. No question this is a great trade for Miami!!!
     
  9. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Tell me how I "insulted the FO/Coach/BP." We got hosed on compensation. That's a given. Also, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, 3 of our 5 projected starters next year have played a grand total of what 3 total seasons out of 12 total chances? How can you discredit at all the need for durable and experienced depth on the OLine?

    Also to your point of "You win superbowls with starters, not backups" you're incorrect. You win Super Bowls with TALENT. And Satele had talent. And now his talent will be realized in Oakland because he "doesn't fit our scheme" which is the most bush league excuse I've ever heard.
     
  10. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Trent Dilfer - You can't argue he's a starting calibur QB
    Steve Smith - A backup WR who made the awesome catch in the Super Bowl against the Pats that lead to the winning TD
    Frank Reich - Against the Oilers in the playoffs...wasn't the Super Bowl but it got them there
    Kevin Dyson - A backup WR and return specialist who pulled off the music city miracle against Buffalo, again not the Super Bowl but got them there, though you can refute that by saying the Titans didn't win that Super Bowl

    Hell, the 1972 dolphins went undefeated with back-up QB Earl Morrall starting 9 games.

    The point is that more so in football than any other sport depth and backups are important. You can't win with 22 guys who can play and 33 who can't.

    Oh, and what color do you want that tatoo?
     
  11. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod

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    If anything, the Wildcat proves that Satele is more than capable of playing center, as it was designed, in part, to take advantage of his strengths. Even if we go back and look at the numbers from last year, we ran for 3.86 YPC behind G/C ... so while it's lower than this year's number, it's better than what Groves and company did in Oakland this year.

    You can apply this same logic to the way Satele struggled as well ... we started a guy who was pedestrian at best (Ndukwe) for 15 out of 16 games, and started a guy that was a poor backup (Alleman) for the last 4. Factor in a torn labium for Satele and I don't see how you can pin all of our troubles on him alone.

    Look I'm all for the move if we do indeed get better with the power running game, all our starters come back healthy, and we score some nice depth along the way via the draft. It just seems a dangerous (and unnecessary) risk for a team that's known for a cautious approach.
     
  12. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    I agree that the trade favors the Raiders. We used a 2nd on Satele and you'd like to get at least that back in return. Plus I really liked his toughness. However I do think he struggled with run blocking. Just my observation. Too many missed assignments and there was often a big pile-up in the middle instead of a lane.

    The other thing about this trade that is interesting is that we are in a much better position to draft Antoine Caldwell from Alabama in the 4th round and Quinn Johnson from LSU in the 6th round.
     
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  13. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    I love the overrating of Satele going on. Coming from the same folks who overrated Hadnot who went on to sign that mere 2 year $5 million contract.

    We have quite the history of overrating our bad to average linemen (Satele/Hadnot) and underrating our actual good ones (Carey).
     
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  14. PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN

    PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN Well-Known Member

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    But there's now way we are drafting a Center with our first round pick when we just signed Grove and Berger. Maybe with our 2a pick, like Unger, but now with our first round pick.
     
  15. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Here's the details on the Satele trade

    not that bad if you ask me. We weren't gonna use Satele anyway.

    http://phinphanatic.com/

    The Dolphins will get the Raiders 4th round pick, which is the 8th pick in that round, and the Raiders 6th round pick also the 8th of that round. In return, the Raiders get 2 year starter Samson Satele and the Dolphins 4th round pick, number 26 in that round.
     
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  16. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    sorry. just realized that these details have already been talked about. i didn't feel like reading all 6 pages. i read the first 3 then posted my previous post.
     
  17. SCall13

    SCall13 ThePhins QB

  18. phinfanuk

    phinfanuk Season Ticket Holder

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    I can deal with a 4th, would rather have kept ours as well though.
     
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  19. BrazForPhins

    BrazForPhins From south

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    a swap of 4ths and a 6th ?

    ok satele doesn't fit, but we could get more than that
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I would respectfully beg to differ. The Wildcat wasn't designed to take advantages of Satele's strengths....it was more disigned to mask his weaknesses as a power run blocker, which is what BP wants our Center to be.

    This is true b/c... if Satele was a better smash mouth run blocker, we would have been relying more on our primary offensive scheme (power running) to win games, not the Wildcat. Remember that Smiley was healthy when we first used the Wildcat as a crutch.

    This is true b/c.... if it weren't, Satele would still be in aqua and orange. LOL.

    We're not a Wildcat team first who can "power run". We're a power running team who can add an extra dimension with the wildcat....so our strength revolves around the power running game, not blocking for the wildcat.
     
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  21. dgb11112

    dgb11112 Hall Of Fame

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    What we received for Satele

    This is from www.ProFootballtalk.com
    I'm not to sure that this was the best we could do, sort of disapointed curious as to what the rest of the members think. Just my opinion.
    Dgb11112

    SIXTH-ROUND PICK AND A FOURTH-ROUND SWAP FOR SATELE
    Posted by Mike Florio on March 23, 2009, 5:05 p.m.
    And the Miami Dolphins continue to squander second-round draft picks.

    Over the past few years, they have traded second-round selections for players like A.J. Feely and Daunte Culpepper.

    The Fins exercised a second-round selection in 2007, taking center Samson Satele. Less than two years later, he has been shipped out of town, reportedly for a sixth-round draft pick.

    According to David White of the San Francisco Chronicle, the Raiders and Dolphins also swapped fourth-round picks, moving Miami up 18 spots, from No. 122 overall to No. 104.

    Still, most teams aspire to get something more than that from a second-round draft pick, especially after getting only two years of service out of him.
     
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  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't think it's really fair to compare anything about Miami to Oakland/Grove. We ARE talking about the Raiders here. :lol: Too many variables in the equation to compare... we had better RBs, QB, defense, coaches... basically everything except for a Safety (who is now ours) and a CB. LOL.

    The only comparison that matters is the comparison to what's acceptable. :wink2:
    2.7 YPC off center vs the AFCE out of our "preferred power running" scheme is unacceptable. The Wildcat isn't supposed to be a factor in the equation, only an extra wrinkle for some big plays here and there....and to keep defenses on their toes while forcing teams to prepare for more aspects of our game.

    The point of a power running game is to not have to rely on lots of gimmick plays. The point of it is to dominate and wear down the defense, while stripping precious minutes from the clock so Brady and company have less time to air it out. Unfortunately, utilizing Satele's strengths in the Wildcat doesn't accomplish this necessity. LOL.
     
  23. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Let me just add, that a lot is made of "Bill Parcell's type tough guys." The guy had a torn labram, the same injury that A-Rod has and is out for 6 weeks with, and continued to start every game of a playoff run. Albeit he was never dominate, he still played at a rather high level. Can someone tell me how that doesn't define "Bill Parcell's type tough guy?"
     
  24. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    you really think parcells and ireland took whatever offer they heard first? im sure this really is the best we could get. satele was expendable. we didnt need to trade him, so its not like oakland had us by the balls. be glad we didnt get a 7th or nothing at all.
     
  25. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    I'm less upset with the trade and more upset with the results...

    I'd have thought he was worth more than a sixth and a swap of fourths.:pity:
     
  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I think they're/we're referring to Bill Parcels type toughness when it counts- when you're not injured and on the field required to hold your ground in a power running attack verse larger/stronger DT's/NT's.

    Satele is tough as hell to play through a torn labrum, but this is a different type of toughness to the forementioned.... but I'm glad you respect that part of Sam's game. Oakland's lucky to get him in that regard. :yes:
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    As soon as we signed Grove, we showed the league our hand- that Satele is now a backup....hence we lost every bit of leverage in squeezing out a more favorable deal with any team that secretly wanted him. W/O leverage, you don't get squat. LOL.

    Us trading Satele is analogous to hocking a ROLEX at a pawn shop!! They know you need to sell it, so you're not gonna get $#!+ :(

    All things considered, I'm exstatic that we got 2 picks out of it and upgraded another one.
     
  28. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Agreed its a horrible trade unless the players we pick from this trade turn out to be solid players.

    I look at Satele and in Cams offense was pro bowl caliber. Now with injuries he struggled this year but I think as many he would fit better as a Guard in this system but I guess as it stands he didn't fit the MOLD of a guard granted I'm fine with trading Satele but not giving him away like they did.

    I mean I'm sure Miami could have gotten at least a 5th its like they gave him away. I fear Ted Ginn Jr will be next because he doesn't fit the mold.
     
  29. BrazForPhins

    BrazForPhins From south

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    yea, probably..I still have in mind the 2007 satele, one of the bright spots of Cam's team..

    the problem is that we signed Grove. We showed our hand.
     
  30. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the deal, but we could get a pretty good player at the top of rd 4, IMO. There are some good prospects on the cusp of the 3rd round whom might fall to the top of the 4th.
     
  31. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    I'm still waiting to your rebuttal my post outlining backups who have played signifigant roles in team's reaching/winning the super bowl
     
  32. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    You guys realize that if we get a perennial pro bowler with the pick and swap we get from Oakland this'll all look stupid in a few years right?

    And yes, I'm aware of what it will look like if it goes the other way.

    Even still - Satele didn't fit our scheme especially with the big NT coming in and that's very important.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, that is low ball value.

    Samson Satele was marked down.:sad:
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    i'm still thinking about it. LOL.
     
  35. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Honestly I'd have rather kept him for depth. Letting him go for a 2nd round pick and a swap? The trifecta must really not think highly of Satele. He's young, he's talented and he's working cheap.We should have gotten their 4th round pick outright. We got rooked. I wish Samson Satele well. He was a good player for us.
     
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  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I like how you twisted my words to try and make your argument. Touché. ;)
    I didn't say "significant role", although it's a given that reserves can contribute. I don't see Satele coming in for Penny or Henne to take us all the way. LOL. What I said is: "Starters win SBs, not reserves.". If you'd prefer to have a team full of reserves to try and make it to the big game....then good luck with that, but I highly doubt the Steelers would have made it to and won the SB without their starters. If you want to keep saying that their reserves would have done it, I'd have to call you crazy. I'll take Miami's starters over their reserves head to head any day. If it doesn't matter, why don't we just throw everyone's name into a hat and pick at random who will play each game. I'm sure we'll do fine. <grinning>

    I can understand your disappointment though....as a backup is much harder to find than starters. They must be....after all, we only mustered up what- 4 backups to 7 starters out of last draft(if you put Henne in the future starter category). Now I see your point- 4 is much rarer than 7. LOL.
    Sorry, just busting your balls in good fun like you are mine. We all love the Phins and that's all that counts here, right?
    After all I am a
    <<<<<<<<
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  37. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    One thing of note is the fact that we didn't have a sixth round pick prior to this trade. Remember, that was the second part of the Jason Ferguson deal last year.

    So the Dolphins did well to recoup a pick in that round. 16 spots higher, no less.

    As for the swap of 4th rounders, consider this:

    Last year, the Dolphins gave up the first pick in the 7th round to move up from 115 to 110 to get Shawn Murphy. Using the famous Draft Value Chart, going from 122 to 104 is the equivalent of a mid-high 5th round pick (No. 140). Or an even higher pick next year.

    The Raiders don't have a 5th rounder this year. And you always want picks now rather than later. So essentially the Dolphins accepted a trade-up nearly equivalent to the 5th rounder Oakland sent to Atlanta in the Deangelo Hall deal.

    So the question is, do you think a mid-high 5th and 6th round pick was sufficient for Satele? Does trading up ahead of time make it even better? Depending on who's sitting there on draft day, that may be a trade you want but can't get.
     
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  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Respectfully, the last thing I would call Parcels is a poor negotiator. Contrarily, he's probably the most intimidating personality in the league. We had zero leverage with ANY deal regarding Samson, so we got what we could get.

    Some of us are still thinking of Samson the starter, when he is in fact Samson the backup. LOL. We drafted him late 2nd to be a starter, so it's only fair to get the equivalent of a 4th for him as a reserve. ;)

    You don't realize it, but this actually nets us 2 picks and improves a volatile 4th rounder.
     
  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Our draft opportunities just opened up tremendously! Getting a higher 4th prevents us from having to reach in the 3rd if necessary, which in turn upgrades that pick if that were to become the case.

    There is a possibility of a player sitting atop round 4 that we highly desire who might be gone by pick 15. There is a big difference in talent level between a round 3 guy who falls and a bottom round 4 player.

    We had no 6th, so to move up to grab such a targeted player would have cost us our 5th. So in essence, we don't have to reach in 2b or 3, we get a higher 4th, we get to keep our 5th, and on top of it we get an early 6th to beat the rest of the league to some of the raw talented sleepers that may fall there.... like Guard Louis Vasquez, for instance, who I'd take over Satele without even swapping 4th rounders. ;)

    IMO, this creates a much greater opportunity for success verses the benefit Satele might bring as a backup. For anyone who doesn't really get deep into understanding how the draft plays out, this trade is potentially huge for us!
     
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  40. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    We could also package the higher fourth with our third to jump back into the first day of picks if someone is falling that we like. That would give us four picks in the first two rounds.
     
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