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My Response To A Vegetarian

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by maynard, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    I knew a vegan cannibal, poor guy was a confused individual.
     
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  2. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    I would think that would be an extraordinarily difficult co-existence.
     
  3. Hellion

    Hellion Crash Club Member

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    Here and there
    You know what taste good?

















    Dog... :lol: jking
     
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  4. Soundwave

    Soundwave Phins Sympathizer..

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    Thanks for the post and delineating the Animal Rights / Welfare.

    Good stuff. :up:

    As to the bolded, I would agree that it's along the same lines

    it's been my experience that ex-smokers are even worse than non-smokers... lol
     
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  5. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    I view the vegetarian/meat eating argument the same way I do religion.

    Do what you want, just STFU about it.
     
  6. Hellion

    Hellion Crash Club Member

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    Here and there
    :lol: Ok then sorry Alex, i take back the "comeback" parts and i harshed it down some.
     
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  7. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    You should have invited her to talk about it further over a coffee and burger. :pointlol:

    Or pointed out that when her house was built it destroyed the natural habitat and likely many homes for the poor wild animals. But that usually just gets a blank stare, then the shifting eyes and finally the "Umm....err....what?" response.

    Great posts from Hellion, I have nothing to add to it but to say thanks for the read, I agree and give a :hi5:.
     
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  8. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    I really have no problem/don't care if people want to be vegetarians. Their choice doesn't effect mine. I only have a problem when vegetarians try to put a guilt trip on me bc I'm a carnivore.
     
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  9. Soundwave

    Soundwave Phins Sympathizer..

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    :wink2:
     
  10. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    lol Don't try to blame this on white people.

    I take no responsibility for this!
     
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  11. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Why isn't it natural to herd them for slaughter? We're simply doing it in a more efficient way. It's the bi-product of higher intelligence.

    I'm on board with the "killing for the sake of killing is wrong" crowd. I think cruelty is wrong.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Not even a little bit actually. We are very respectful of each other.

    - She's a Christian, I'm an Atheist.
    - She's Vegan, I'm a meat eater.
    - She likes country music, I have taste.
    - She likes reality TV, I use my brain.

    Seriously, though we discuss our differences regularly, but we've never once fought about them.
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    For the most part ALL Vegans/Vegs are ex meat eaters, so it stands to reason.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Well, the point is to do the least amount harm. Building a house does hurt things, but we have to live somewhere. We all care about people, but if you have to fire or evict someone, you'll do it, but you'd still be upset if they were being tortured.
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its not even the herding, its how they're kept and slaughtered. I would think it would be eye opening to watch the movie I posted a link to earlier. It generally helps to understand both sides of an issue, before passing judgment.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I believe hunting for food is way more humane then a factory farm. However, the problem is hunting by humans disrupts the natural order.

    Hunters love to claim, that they have to cull the herds because, if they didn't their numbers would explode. Where else in nature does that happen? Nowhere. There is no animal in its natural habitat that needs to be culled by people, when left alone. Its only when people start screwing up the balance, that populations explode.

    Have you ever asked yourself, why the numbers are so high to begin with? I mean if people are taking more and more land, why are the numbers so high? The reason is hunters, killed off the predators. There are not enough natural predators in their habitat to control the numbers. So, man replaces their predators. Problem is, you don't hunt like animal predators. Animal predators target the weak, infirm, or young prey. Humans target the biggest and the strongest. That causes more problems than you know. For one, the alpha buck controls breeding in his herd. Take him away, and there is a period of uncontrolled breeding. Other issues that stem from the alpha being taken are that, inexperienced bucks end up taking over. Instead of knowing the best natural feed spots, the go to the easiest places to find food, where the humans are.

    At this point, I think it is time to leave them alone, let them cull themselves. In time, you'll have a natural sustainable population. It'll be ugly in the mean time, but thems the breaks. Every time man tries to control the population it either increases it or increases another population inadvertently. Point is, leave the cycle alone and it'll do just fine on its own.
     
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  17. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    what are you talking about? everything we do in our lives is of our own free will knowing the risk so its irrelevant and doesnt mean there arent innocents or tragedies obviously. anything can happen at anytime. would an appropriate response to the people that died on flight 93 on 9/11 be, "well, they knew the risk of flying" ??? no, thats silly

    what my response suggests, is that there are things in life we have to accept and move on from. my response wasnt supposed to refute her from being a vegetarian, but to put her cause in some perspective. here she is unwilling to accept that some dolphins get caught in nets, but is completely at ease with ways that more valuable lives (humans) die everyday

    to care so much about one and not the other is rather silly, imo
     
  18. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    And we have to eat something.

    Our farming is stretched to the limits as it is, if we were to cut back (or get rid of completely) our animal food source you would see alot of people start to die off because the land can't sustain our population levels. It works the same way in the wild if you remove humans altogether, which brings me to....

    I'll make this point now to get it out of the way, the difference between the human example and wild animals is that humans create food for animals to feed on. Increased food leads to increased population.

    We've actually had this conversation before and I will urge you to once again contact your local Department of Environmental Conservation to familiarize yourself with the statistics. Hunting does indeed control animal populations, if we were to end hunting altogether the population would indeed explode. You asked where that happened before and I went to google and typed in "Animal population explosion hunting" and the very first story that popped up was of a fox population explosion in Scotland when they banned hunting. The next result was a deer population explosion in Chatham county, it happens.

    In a world without people where the population of deer increases and the winter months close in, it's a battle for food and the deer starve. A good example of this would be the tree scenario. Think of a tree with leaves/berries on it, a healthy mature deer would be able to reach the top branches for food, while the older, injured and young deer are all fighting for the food on the bottom of the tree. Hunters, more often than not, are removing the older deer from the equation allowing the younger population to grow and be healthy. Remove humans from the equation and the deer starve to death, is that more humane than hunting?

    Now add humans back into the mix, except not as hunters, but as providers. Humans create alot of garbage and food sources for exploding animal populations. I can look outside every morning during warm weather and watch the deer eat crops and the flowers in the backyard, bear and coy dogs knocking over trash cans, they don't confine themselves to the woods. So the original example that I gave you of the human population dying off because the land can't support high levels (or the tree example) doesn't apply here because animals will wander into our backyards looking for a handout.

    That's why the DEC allows hunting permits, that's why they do surveys every year to monitor the population levels and adjust the hunting permits accordingly. Population doesn't increase because hunting reduces the number of predators, most hunters are going after deer, not coyotes, mountain lions or bear. Some people do hunt those animals, but the numbers are far far fewer than those that hunt deer. The people who are most concerned about predators are the farmers that are losing livestock because of an increase in predator numbers.

    You say "In time, you'll have a natural sustainable population. It'll be ugly in the mean time, but thems the breaks." based on the assumption that food supply will regulate population, under that assumption, do you think letting animals starve to death is more humane than selective removal? And what about the food supply that people provide these animals?

    Again, I urge you to contact your local DEC and ask them about this issue. They will be more than happy to set you straight. :up:
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    This is simply not true. First off, there are plenty of alternatives to animals. However, I'm a meat eater myself. None of what you said had thing one to do with factory farms. Now, the reason you're incorrect, is because what do you suppose we feed all those factory farmed animals? Where does their food come from? Crops. Try looking up what an average factory farmed beef cattle eats in a day in poundage and what a person eats. You'll see that, factory farms use 10 or more times land for growing crops, then is needed to feed people.


    First of all, the predators were taken out when the towns were first built, and have been kept at minimum ever since. They are still hunted to this very day, and their numbers are nominal. Secondly, the fox article you brought up was on a hunting website and provided no facts or figures. But even if we assume its true, no one is actually arguing the numbers would increase, but eventually the numbers will go back down. Never argued it, and it is what I said earlier. Foxes in Scotland were hunted for sport in very large numbers for 100's of years. Their breeding habits adapted to this. While it kept them from being extinct, it also provided more supply for hunters. Point is, had they never been hunted to the degree they were, you'd not have this problem.

    If these populations are encroaching back into human territory then it is a clear example that hunting is not stopping the problem. Hunting is a band-aid that has to be applied every year. There are methods from keeping animals away from property, killing them is the easiest though. In the thread we had earlier, I brought up llamas for example. There are a few livestock farmers who've used llamas to deter coyotes from attacking their herds. It works. I encourage you to look it up.

    Now, if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I'm not talking about hunting from a humane standpoint. I'm talking about it from causing problems. Which it does. You quoted that I said it would get ugly before it got better.
     
  20. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Unless you support eliminating all of those animals, they'll still need to eat. If we were to keep those animals around for milk, eggs, etc (not their meat) then they would still be relying on those crops. Crops which btw are low grade crops and which are usually mixed with recycled animals parts that are left over from meat processing plants. Get rid of the meat processing plants, and those crops (or land for grazing) would need to increase, leaving us less land for our own crops.

    It's not as simple as saying "Cows eat x amount of pounds a day, a human will eat x amount less, so we have more crops to feed people".

    And in the thread where we spoke about hunting a few months ago, I also pointed out how the local DEC transplanted mountain lions into this area to help keep the deer population in check because animal rights groups were complaining about an increase in doe tags based on survey numbers. Instead of thinning out the deer population, now we have a mountain lion problem to boot. Had the DEC just given out the extra tags, things would be fine, now we have mountain lions encroaching into backyards and on school grounds.

    Transplanting one animal into an area doesn't work, sooner or later you'll need to transplant another animal to take care of the first one.

    You say that without offering up any evidence. Again, I urge you to contact the DEC, they have the numbers and I'm sure that they'll be more than happy to supply them for you.
     
  21. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    LOL..why would you?:lol:



    "get outta here ya gad dang vegetarians. won't eat meat will ya !!!???" :tantrum:








    :tongue2:
     
  22. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    This is going to be my response to a vegetarian in two hours:

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're picking and choosing here. You said we don't have enough land to grow crops for human consumption. If the land that was used to grow the crops for the animals was used to grow for people there would be plenty of land. So yeah it is that simple actually.

    In that thread I also pointed out how that was foolish. I keep saying we need to leave it alone and let nature take its course, and you keep offering up examples of human intervention to prove me wrong. (Reading what I wrote, I realized I wasn't as clear as should have been, about the llamas.) Where ever there is a farm with livestock, coyotes & foxes are an issue. These farmers hunt and trap the coyotes by the 1000's. Livestock farms span from coast to coast as do these coyotes and foxes. The coyotes and foxes, not being idiots, go for the easy kill. Penned up livestock, are the easy kill. By going after them they leave many of their natural prey alone. That increases the prey's population, and increases in the coyotes and foxes population. Adding llamas to these livestock farms, (not out into the wild) will dramatically decrease the amount of livestock taken. Llamas will stomp a mudhole in these predators asses. These predators will then go back to their natural prey, which will now become the easier meal. That will begin to help cull the numbers, naturally. The other part is prevention of the prey animals coming into our towns. We put a man on the moon, we can outsmart deer.

    Again not true. I've provided:

    - Mating habits of deer, when the alpha buck is removed by hunters.
    - Hunters removed the bulk of predators from human populated areas.
    - Humans have almost never successfully managed a population of animals in the wild.
    - Predators go for the easy kill.
    - That it will be ugly if we outlawed hunting.
    - Llamas have significantly curbed the taking of livestock on farms that have used them.

    You have provided info from the DEC. The DEC is funded by hunters and works on the premise that hunting is the way to solve the problem. Their research limits them to one way to think about the problem.

    Point is, again, hunting has not solved the problem yet, otherwise, there'd be no problem right now. Hunting and humans caused the problem, and now we're told hunting will solve the problem, even though it hasn't. When do we try another approach?
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So you're going to tell them that you prefer ribs from restaurants that are out of business?:lol:
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I would also like to point out that the sword cuts both ways. I've heard many of you say vegetarians need to keep it to themselves, but since my wife is vegan, I've seen plenty and I mean plenty of nagging, prodding, insulting, and picking on of her from meat eaters.

    Look at this thread, pictures, insults and rubbing it in has gone on, on every page and no one here is telling anyone to go vegetarian. I just think it isn't as one sided as you guys make it out to be.
     
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  26. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    My local restaurant is very much in business. :up:
     
  27. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    Guilty. I once was a waiter in an Italian restaurant. A customer informed me that he was vegan and could not eat anything made with meat, milk or egg, and a couple of other things, it was years ago so the accuracy of my memory is questionable. I do remember, however, that it eliminated 99% of the menu. He asked what I recommended for dinner. I told him 'eating at home'. He and the entire party laughed at my comment and I ended up bringing out the chef to assist in selecting this man's meal, but damn, what a restrictive diet.
     
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  28. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    For the record ... picture of a delicious rack of ribs aside, I would *never* try to convince a vegetarian they are "wrong."
     
  29. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Damn right Steve ! :up:
     
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  30. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    Wow. Props to you.
     
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  31. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    after reviewing his sig at fanhell, i find this last part very very hard to believe.:pointlol:
     
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  32. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    That is amazing. My first wife was a Bills fan. There's a chasm that no bridge could cross.
     
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  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The one thing we do have in common is our sick sense of humor.:yes:
     
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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Don't get me wrong, if she liked the Jets, I'd get her pregnant just so I could punch her in the baby and then divorce her, after I banged her mom and sisters.

    What's really amazing is you've been married twice by the age of 5.
     
  35. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    Oh, I see I told you my stories already. :pointlol:

    I'm from the South.
     
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  36. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    my wife was a Jets fan.





    was a jets fan :up:
     
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  37. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    So brain implant surgery is now effective? :up: Awesome bro!
     
  38. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    :sidelol:
     
  39. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    that with the constant looming threat of forced anal...


    can i say that? is that ok to say here? talk about hijacking a thread.
     
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  40. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    So those animals that we would be using for food just magicaly disappear? No need for a place to live or food to eat? And once those animals are released to the wild, won't they also become an issue that we'll eventually have to deal with (population and encroaching on populated areas)?

    It's not as simple as you make it sound.

    Not really because animals like coyotes, bear, fox, mountain lions, etc will learn to hunt in packs. I've seen instances on local farms where a farmer will bring in a bull to protect his cows, only to wake up to find the bull dead on the ground and multiple sets of tracks in the area. Animals aren't stupid, when a farmer builds a fence the animal finds a way to get over (or under) it. Remove the cattle and chickens from the equation and you still have human garbage and domestic animals that predators will flock to because it's easy pick'ins. Once they start becoming a problem within neighborhoods they need to be taken care of.

    I would much rather have a deer managed with a gun than have the population increase and having a deer hit by a car endangering human lives in the process.

    It's a situation that is constantly changing, it will never be solved one way or the other, but hunting is the best solution.

    And your points directly contradict the facts from the DEC, you provide examples with no numbers to back them up. The DEC on the other hand have very detailed numbers to support the case for hunting. If the DEC is only concerned about money as you imply, why not sell more tags? Why restrict the number of deer (or other animals) that a hunter can get? IMO that's a horrible way to run a business.

    Also, lets be fair to the discussion, when we had this conversation before you used words like "bloodlust" to describe hunters and you also admittedly attended a protest for animal rights. I absolutely admire your concern and dedication to ending the abuse of animals when there is a documented case for it, but demonizing one practice (hunting) in order to support another (animal rights/conservation) is counterproductive because it undermines any argument that you may have. Not believing the DEC because you feel they have an ulterior motive is a good example of that.

    If we were talking about the treatment of domestic animals, then I would be right by your side. I rescued a stray, I get my animals at the humane society and I would contact the authorities if I ever saw someone mistreat their pet, but when it comes to hunting and the impact that it has on the animal populations, you are waaay off.

    Again, I urge you to contact your local DEC for more information. :wink2:
     

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