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Things Learned this weekend

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by OSaban, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    This is a list of draft picks that teams with very good OL's have chosen since 2000. It doesn't take into account players signed in FA, players that were undrafted FA's, players traded for or players that were drafted and switched positions.

    New England Patriots
    2000
    2nd Adrian Klemm
    4th Greg Randall

    2001
    2nd Matt Light
    4th Kenyatta Jones

    2003
    5th Dan Koppen

    2005
    1st Logan Mankins
    3rd Nick Kaczur

    2006
    5th Ryan O'Callaghan
    6th Dan Stevenson

    2007 (had no 2nd or 3rd round picks)
    5th Clint Oldenburg
    6th Corey Hilliard
    7th Mike elgin

    Dallas Cowboys
    2001
    5th Matt Lehr
    7th Char-ron Dorsey

    2002
    2nd Andre Gurode
    6th Tyson Walter

    2003
    2nd Al Johnson

    2004
    2nd Jaocb Rogers
    3rd Stephen Peterman

    2005
    6th Rob Petitti

    2006
    7th Pat McQuistan
    7th EJ Whitley

    2007
    3rd James Marten
    4th Doug Free

    Indianapolis Colts
    2001
    4th Ryan Diem
    7th Rick DeMulling

    2003
    4th Steve Scuillo
    6th Makoa Freitas

    2004
    5th Jake Scott

    2005
    4th Dylan Gandy
    5th Robert Hunt

    2006
    5th Michael Toudouze
    6th Charlie Johnson

    2007
    2nd Tony Ugoh

    San Diego Chargers
    2000
    3rd Damion McIntosh
    7th Jason Thomas

    2001
    5th Eliot Silvers
    7th Brandon Gorin

    2002
    2nd Toniu Fonoti

    2003
    3rd Courtney Van Buren

    2004
    3rd Nick Hardwick
    7th Shane Olivea

    2005
    5th Wesley britt
    6th Wes Sims
    7th Scott Mruczkowski

    2006
    2nd Marcus McNeill
    6th Jeromey Clary
    7th Jimmy Martin

    Seattle Seahawks
    2000
    1st Chris McIntosh

    2001
    1st Steve Hutchinson
    4th Floyd Womack
    7th Dennis Norman

    2002
    5th Matt Hill

    2003
    3rd Wayne hunter

    2004
    3rd Sean Locklear

    2005
    1st Chris Spencer
    4th Ray Willis
    7th Doug Nienhuis

    2006
    4th Robs Sims

    2007
    4th Mansfield Wrotto
    7th Steve Vallos


    Jacksonville Jaguars
    2000
    2nd Brad Meester
    4th Joey Chustz
    7th Mark Baniewicz

    2001
    2nd Maurice Williams
    6th Chad Ward

    2002
    2nd Mike Pearson

    2003
    3rd Vince Manuwai
    6th Marques Ogden

    2004
    5th Sean Bubin

    2005
    2nd Khalif Barnes

    2007
    5th Uche Nwaneru
    7th Andrew Carnahan

    Green Bay Packers
    2000
    2nd Chad Clifton
    7th Mark Tauscher

    2001
    4th Bill Ferrario

    2002
    6th Mike Houghton

    2003
    6th Brennen Curtin

    2004
    7th Scott Wells

    2005
    5th Junius Coston
    7th Will Whitticker

    2006
    2ndDaryn Colledge
    3rd Jason Spitz
    5th Tony Moll

    2007
    4th Allen Barbre

    Tampa Bay Buccaneers
    2000
    2nd Cosey Coleman

    2001
    1st Kenyatta Walker
    5th Russ Hochstein

    2003
    4th Lance Nimmo
    4th Austin King
    5th Sean Mahan

    2004
    5th Jeb Terry

    2005
    3rd Chris Colmer
    4th Dan Buenning

    2006
    1st Davin Joseph
    2nd Jeremy Trueblood

    2007
    2nd Arron Sears
    7th Chris Denman

    Pittsburgh Steelers
    2000
    2nd Marvel Smith

    2001
    4th Mathias Nkwenti
    5th Chukky Okobi

    2002
    1st Kendall Simmons

    2004
    3rd Max Starks
    6th Bo Lacy
    6th Drew Carter

    2005
    3rd Trai Essex
    6th Chris Kemoeatu

    2006
    4th Willie Colon
    6th Marvin Philip

    2007
    5th Cameron Stephenson

    Baltimore Ravens
    2000
    5th Richard Mercier

    2001
    3rd Casey Rabach
    6th Joe Maese

    2003
    5th Tony Pashos
    7th Mike Mabry

    2004
    7th Brian Rimpf

    2005
    2nd Adam Terry
    4th Jason Brown

    2006
    2nd Chris Chester

    2007
    1st Ben Grubbs
    3rd Marshal Yanda
    Sup Jared Gaither

    In order to have a good OL and to make sure that you keep a good OL, you have to make an investment in that position. Players leave in FA, players get hurt, players don't live up to their potential and players retire, you need to keep stocking the cupboards or those cupboards will become bare.
     
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  2. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    steelers and seahawks didnt have very good o-lines this year
     
  3. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    They both made the playoffs... But, of course the steelers had a good OL.
     
  4. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    In order to have a good OL and to make sure that you keep a good OL, you have to make an investment in that position. Players leave in FA, players get hurt, players don't live up to their potential and players retire, you need to keep stocking the cupboards or those cupboards will become bare.[/QUOTE]

    Good info but I noticed two things- one: there were lots of 5th - 7th rounders in here. I'm OK with that. I think some of that is that these teams lose free agents because they draft well and get they back comp picks they can use on other positions so they can afford to invest late on the OL.

    We don't draft well and this is the first year we'll get back comp picks in a long time.

    Some of that is that we haven't had late round picks a lot of years as we've given up 6th and 7th rounders for Lemon, McNown, Harrington, Rosenfels and Druckenmiller. Maybe some of those lost picks would have been turned into starting linemen.

    If you take out some of those lost draft picks we're drafted about as many linemen in your 7 year survey as most other teams.

    Two: those good teams you list have built lines with continuity. Seattle and GB don't make wholesale changes on their line like we tend to. They don't move their best RT to LT and thereby weaken two positions. Seattle has made do and thrived with Chris Gray who played here in the 90's, and not at a high level until he left Miami. They invested in Jones and Spencer but the rest of the line isn't made up of superstars.
     
  5. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    I dont think we are really getting any..if we do i think were only going to get 1 maybe 2
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  6. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Fact is, they didn't. The OL played well AFTER Ronnie went down due to injury, but as the season wore on and the losses kept piling up, they struggled.

    It didn't make your point at all, I asked you if you remembered how Ronnie did last year when the OL wasn't playing well. Truth is, he struggled, just like Shaun Alexander struggled after Hutchinson left for Minny. For most of that season Alexander averaged less than 3.0 YPC. Once Ronnie had a line that was doing their job, he was producing and all of the "He's a bust" crap vanished. It goes back to my explaination of how "Everything on offense starts with the OL". Point made.

    And again, show me one quote where anyone is calling for the OL to be completely overhauled. I haven't seen any. But the fact is this OL isn't even in the top 10 in the NFL, we need to keep improving it and finding ways to make it better.

    Again, they played well AFTER Ronnie went down to injury, but as the losses kept piling up......

    Did they do a good job of pass blocking for Beck?

    It isn't revisionist history, it's a fact.

    Welker is a great #3 WR and nothing more. He was the recipient of alot of dump off passes from a pressured QB (Meaning the OL broke down). Now that he's in NE, he's in a great system where he can roam free, and it doesn't hurt that Brady is throwing him passes either.

    McMichael was indeedused primarily as a blocker, I'm not sure what Miami Dolphins season you were watching. He was used as a blocker because the OL was playing horribly and couldn't stop a simple 4 man rush. So......McMichael's production dipped (because everything on offense starts with the OL and they weren't doing their job).

    And I'm very well aware that we traded a #3 WR for a very good center. I'm glad we finally started focusing on drafting/upgrading the OL.

    Drafted enough OL? Do you realize how many players (not just OL) are still on the team from 1998-2003?

    Answer=ZERO

    That is 58 draft picks that just vanished from our team, gone without a trace. Those years of poor drafting and quick fix trades are what got us into the mess we find ourselves in today. This whole team lacks talent from the offense to the defense to the special teams, we are terrible. But to pretend that the Phins have done a good job in drafting OL and finding OL in FA is silly at best and intellectualy dishonest at worse.

    Please stop with the personal digs. I never said that all the teams problems are caused by the OL, but when it comes to offense, the offensive line is a big worry. Yes they played better last year, but they struggled at the end of the season and they aren't even in the top 10 OL's in the NFL. Should we be content with average or okay? I don't think so.

    I think we'd all like this forum to be more open, honest, smarter and less reactionary. But you can't deny that Chambers never reached his potential here and he dropped way too many passes. He could make you jump out of you seat on one play and pull your hair out the next 5 plays. He was inconsistent. And the OL s a major concern for some, they should be allowed to their opinions whether you agree with them or not. This is an open forum for people to talk about Miami Dolphins football, not one mans personal blog.

    Isn't the fact that the QB is constantly under pressure and flushed out of the pocket largely on the OL?

    The defense is in total shambles, noone is arguing that. This whole thing has been about you overstating other members concerns and telling them that they are wrong. Fixing a part of the team is not wrong, it's a very wise thing to do when you have a player (Hadnot) who is a FA, a player (Shelton) who is a career underacheiver and a position (LG) that at the moment is unfilled.

    There is no gaurantee that they would have selected him, their focus was OL and they made a horrible knee jerk trade. Carey has turned into a fine player, but the trade was not one of the better ones in Dolphins history.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  7. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I'm not disputing that they had less talent to work with than they did when the season started, but they played well AFTER Green went down, AFTER Brown went down and AFTER Chamber was traded. They only started to fade as the season went on and the losing took its toll. The jobof the OL is to play well no matter who is playing at the skill positions. The fact that they didn't block well for Beck is a good example that they wore down.

    Again, look at the Broncos and the players that they fielded at times, and yet they've had a revolving door of 1,000 yard runningbacks. Go figure.

    Those players did hit the market but they were either tagged or decided to resign with their respective teams. Hutchinson, Tait, Bentley and Steinbach all switched teams because there was a team willing to spend the $$$. You can get a franchised player if you're willing to spend what it will take. The Vikes payed a heavy price for Hutchinson because they wanted him badly enough. Miami has never made that commitment, they are more content with overpaying average and underacheiving talent.

    You are the only one talking about an overhaul, you are taking what is said out of context and spinning it to fit your side of the argument.

    You are completely wrong on that and putting words into their mouth. If you can't pull a quote to support that, please stop saying it as if it was a fact.

    Let me tell ya, this team is on the same level as an expansion team. When you go 1-15, you have a serious problem and need to start over. This team is old, it's slow, it has a serious lack of talent and it needs to be rebuilt from the inside out.

    Pull the quotes, I've seen nothing of the sort. You are being overly dramatic to make your case, but you haven't backed up your claims that people want to "Jake Long" the whole OL.

    Funny thing is, what you stated as your view on fixing the OL....

    ....is pretty much how I feel and the rest of the people here feel, you just fail to see it. There is nothing wrong with adding a player or two through the draft, there is nothing wrong with adding a player or two through FA, but there is a BIG problem with the way the Miami Dolphins have gone about building the OL the past 10 years. Lets hope they can build upon what Randy and Cam started (Satele and Mormino), but this OL is far from a finished product.
     
    REV KEV likes this.
  8. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    The point of all of that was, those teams weren't complacent when it came to a position that was a strength for them, they continued to upgrade and bring players in. Noone is saying that we should be spending all of our picks on OL, but it wouldn't hurt to look at players that will be there and could potentially help us in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th rounds.

    And yet they spent 3 1st rounders, 2 3rd rounders and 4 4th rounders to upgrade their OL since 2000. They (like many other teams) didn't stay pat when their OL played "Good".
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
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  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    But they notoriously have very good OL's. I added them because of that.
     
  10. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I'll be happy if we can find one player in FA (Adams, Lilja, etc) and one in the draft (Otah, Oher, Benedict, etc).
     
  11. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    We are getting some comp picks, our net loss in FA's might only be one or two but we will get some picks for losing McIntosh, Sammy Morris etc.
     
  12. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    hope so, not sure though about morris since he ended the season on IR
     
  13. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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  14. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Never said that, stop spinning.

    How can I say they continued to block well after Brown went down?

    Maybe the fact that Chatman was averaging 4.8 yards per carry from week 7 to week 11.

    You keep saying that the OL is fine, and yet you say in the next breath that they didn't play well after Ronnie went down. Can't have it both ways. Which one is it?
     
  15. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    No O-Line looks good when David Martin and Derek Hagan are lined up next to them

     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  16. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
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  17. Tigers2003

    Tigers2003 New Member

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    The o-line is very important.....Brady seems to have all day to trow the ball and so does Manning...the last play of the game Manning didn't have much time to trow and it was incomplete...having said that, we need to fix our defence but the o-line needs at least 1 more player plus 1 of the young guys needs to step up.

    Ozzy rules!!

    See the teams left in the playoffs. They all have much more strengths than weaknesses on the OL. San Diego gave Rivers just enough time to complete passes eventhough there were communication problems between C and QB. Indy lost but they kept Manning off the ground. Their problem was not being able to open up the running game for Addai and their future HOF receiver was injured on the sidelines. Even the G-men OL have given Ely time to throw the last month of the season and look at the results.

    Its a combo of not being patient with the development of young talent and not acquiring the right parts. I firmly believe Tuna and company will fix this finally and the right decisions made on who to be patient with and who needs to go.
     
  18. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    i dont think the biggest problem with our o-line was talent

    i think their biggest problem, like every other area on the team, was COACHING
     
  19. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Post some facts to support your argument, all you've done is state an opinion.

    You wanted to know how the OL played well after Ronnie was injured, I gave you facts. You wanted to know what teams spent in the draft to fix their OL, I gave you facts. You wanted to know how everything on offense starts with the OL, I gave you facts. You wanted to know why I said Welker played well and McMicheal didn't, I gave you facts.

    And yet, you've given no facts to back up your argument. All you've done is spin, twist words and give an opinion (which you are entitled to), but you need to show some facts or back away from the dramatic statements.

    I see, the OL played well when Ronnie was in there, but didn't play well after he was injured, but Beck is solely to blame because he didn't play well? Did I sum up your side of the argument correctly? You're flipping and flopping and it's hard to keep up. Correct me if I'm wrong because this is truly frustrating. You can't have it both ways.

    Beck made mistakes, but the OL didn't pass pro well for him. Go back and watch the games for yourself.

    I'll give you one final opportunity to pull a quote or produce a link. There are extremes on both sides, but to make dramatic statements and put everyone into one big all encompassing category is foolish. I haven't seen people call for a complete overhaul like you claim, so prove it. Shut my mouth by producing a quote.

    I'm actually in favor of trying to trade down to acquire more picks. This is a very deep draft and the more picks that we can acquire, the more holes we can fill this offseason. This is a 2 or 3 year rebuilding project and getting more picks will help us in a big way.

    If we can't trade down, I would love to get Chris Long, Vernon Gholston or Dorsey (but only if he was moved to DE and we can get a NT in FA).

    I'm of the opposite mind, if the draft is deep at DB, you can pick up a 1st round talent in the 3rd, so why draft one in the 1st? I would rather grab a position that isn't as deep and then draft one of the CB's or WR's, etc.

    Dude, you just don't get it. Either you fail to see it or else you just like to argue. I think it's a little of both.
     
  20. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Again you practice what you accuse me of. Your point that the O-line got tired and worn down can not be supported by any statistical fact. The fact that our skill position players were pitiful from Week 11 on is supportable by many stats. The chicken and egg theory doesn't apply here b/c we've already established what Miami's two top backs did for 11 games this year.

    Your comment that Chatman had 4.8 ypc into week 11 after what Ronnie Brown did tells me that you realize we had a pretty good line for the first 11 weeks of the season. Did these guys all of a sudden forget how to run block and pass protect or were there factors out of their control in play?

    You can be a bigger person and admit that the Flat Earth Society is barking up the wrong tree or you can hide behind your platitudes, accusations and circular logic to desperately hang on to your sinking argument that this O-line isn't good enough because it couldn't support the likes of Cleo Lemon, Dave Martin and Derek Hagan.
     
  21. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Like2God Admits O-line is not that Bad Through 11 weeks

    You're right, they apparently blocked well for Chatman who is a good running back. That line played better than I even thought they did. Maybe they block better for rb's with talent and less so for scrubs? That can't be true, can it? Wasn't I the guy who said I don't believe the line is as bad as the Chicken Littles in here?

    You keep supporting those who say the OL isn't fine and yet you've given us stats that show the line did very well through 11 weeks. Which side are you really on?

    Then you say "they wore down" OK, then. What do you say we give them an eight month rest and have 'em try it again? Maybe we'll give 'em better backs and receivers to work with, too.

    God, you're stepping right into the truth. Just go with it and resist the urge to take both sides of the argument.
     
  22. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Oh my - oh my...?
     
  23. BSQ

    BSQ New Member

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    Fiedler=highly regarded? WHAT??????????????????????????????????????
     
  24. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Don't act so surprised, they do play football in Europe, they even have their own league from what I hear.
     

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