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Confused about Beck's season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phincanuck, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    That's what I thought.
     
  2. sabanhater

    sabanhater New Member

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    Beck was in an impossible position to succeed, but they kind of had to do that.
    he worked with the 1st team offense for the 1st time 2 weeks before having to start.
     
  3. Linus

    Linus Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sometime in the last week, there was an article that said players wanted Beck to succeed. But, a few weeks ago, when we all learned about all the internal problems and whatnot, there were articles that stated that there were "veterans" who had not agreed with pulling Lemon and giving Beck a shot because it wasn't fair and "gave up" on the season.

    That is where there's a problem...when the players feel they know more than the coaches. This shouldn't be a problem on an NFL team. Watching those games Beck had been in, I really felt like there were some players who weren't rooting for his successes for the simple reason that they really disliked Cam and Beck was basically the extension of Cam himself. Then Cam pulled Beck, which shows either he never trusted Beck, he thought Cleo was better all along, or he was just trying to appease the vets. The situation was a bad one from the start, and I blame Cam, and I don't think Beck deserved a lot of the pressure he received.
     
  4. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Yes, it's the same Jerome Pathon that never had more than 646 receiving yards in a season.

    "That first year"? He had 278 receiving yards (13 games) his rookie season. As a matter of fact, Small put together the best year of his career with a rookie Peyton Manning throwing to him.

    Ken Diilger had some solid seasons, but I would've never categorized him as a "premier" tight end.

    In Dilger's first 7 seasons (his prime), he caught 261 passes for 3,181 yards and 18 touchdowns. His seasonal averages over that stretch:

    38.31 receptions, 466.94 yards, 2.64 touchdowns

    As for Marcus Pollard, he wasn't anywhere near a fully developed TE in '98.

    86 receiving yards as a rookie in '96
    116 receiving yards in '97
    309 receiving yards in '98

    "There was a reason the Colts had the #1 overall pick, they were devoid of talent pretty much everywhere save for RB, 1 WR, and a LT......" Or atleast "developed" talent.

    Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows were both 2nd year players in '98. Larry Moore was a rookie in '98 that only started 5 games. Steve McKinney was also a rookie in '98, he started all 16 games. Manning had a very inexperienced OL as a rookie, and generally speaking, it usually takes time for an OL to gel.
     
  5. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Matters not that Pathon never had more thab 646 yards receiving; we're talking specifically about 1998 and the year he had 50 catches.

    BTW - great job of ignoring the fact that Manning had two 1st ballot Hall of Famers on that offense.

    "That year".....1998.....Torrance Small had 45 catches for 681 yards and 7 touchdowns. So I'm not 100% sure what you're on about.

    You clearly know little about Ken Dilger and how he was looked upon around the league.

    Similarly, for a 2nd tight end in Pollard who was athletic enough to stretch the field and still come away with 309 yards as a #2 tight end.

    Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows were very good players in their 2nd years. Shame you know so little about it.

    Trying to compare Manning's supporting cast and mentioning it in the same breath as Beck's is about as intelligent as the rest of your argument.
     
  6. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    I haven't made up my mind up with anything, other than Beck was beyond terrible in '07. That shouldn't even be up for debate. As for expecting Beck to elevate the teams play, I never expected that. I didn't expect Beck to be better than any QB on the roster during his rookie season, and I didn't expect the worst QB play out of any NFL QB with atleast 100 snaps.....by a substantial margin. I did expect him to atleast come somewhat close to a career 3rd stringer after spending the first 10 games on the bench.

    The jury is still out on whether or not he will develop into a good starting QB. I just got upset at the Manning comparison, if anything, Aikman is the much better comparison.
     
  7. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    It was the other way round. The players wanted Lemon to start because they thought he was giving them the best chance to win. Glazer's report put it rather awkwardly so many people got it the wrong way. The veterans were actually in Cam's face asking him to put in Cleo.
     
  8. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    What does that make him? A below average #2 WR, but a good #3?

    If we're going by what they did in '98, would that mean Ken Dilger was a below average TE? For the record, I believe he was a "solid"/above average TE, just not "premiere".

    Again, he was a below average #2 WR for pretty much his entire career. He just happened to have the best season of his career because Harrison missed 4 games that season. Of course, it didn't hurt that Manning was throwing him the ball.

    In the 4 games Harrison missed, Small caught for 273 yards and 3 touchdowns.

    Can you point out specifically where I stated that Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows weren't very good players in their 2nd years? I simply stated that it takes time for an OL unit to 'gel', that the unit as a whole wasn't as good (in '98) as what some would believe.

    I didn't ignore anything....

    As for having 2 Hall of Famers, he had Harrison for 12 games and he had Faulk for all 16.....but.....

    Faulk was nowhere near being considered a Hall of Famer when he was still with the Colts. He was considered a very good RB, perhaps the best "all around RB" in the NFL, but he certainly wasn't considered a Hall of Famer prior to '99.

    Faulks first 5 in the NFL ('94-98):

    5,320 rushing yards/1,389 carries (3.83 ypc), 2,804 receiving yards and 49 total touchdowns

    Very good production, but not Hall of Fame numbers.

    Another intresting stat, Marshall Faulk topped his previous career high in receiving yards by 386 yards in '98, Manning's rookie year. '98 ended up being Faulks 2nd best year as far as receiving totals.

    Faulk went from never averaging more than 4.1 ypc in a season, to averaging 5.5 ypc in his first season with the Rams.

    I know enough to realize he wasn't a "premiere" TE, I don't care that he was a 2nd round pick.

    A good #2 TE isn't as valuable as a #2 WR.......

    Manning had Harrison for 12 games, Faulk, and pretty much nothing else. Unless you think Torrence Small and Jerome Pathon were anyting greater than below average. Saying the '98 Colts had a better OL because of one player is also a stretch. There was a reason the Colts had the #1 overall pick, they were devoid of talent pretty mucheverywhere save for RB, 1 WR, and a LT......

    I'm well aware that John Beck had very little to work with, that still doesn't change the fact that his performance was about as bad as one could get.


    How does that translate into saying Beck had comparable weapons to what Beck had to work with? Using a similar statement for Beck, the Dolphins were devoid of talent everywhere. I srongly disagree with the premise that Manning had a great supporting cast as a rookie.

    You mean like saying that Dilger and Pollard were "premiere" tight ends in Manning's rookie season.

    John Beck's rookie season=Peyton Manning's rookie season. After all, Manning had 2 1st ballot Hall of Famers, 2 pro bowl offensive tackles and 2 "premiere" tight ends. It is clear, that no rookie has ever had more to work with than Peyton Manning, John Beck didn't have anything, thus they are comparable.....:001_rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  9. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    LOL.....you slag off Pathon and Torrance Small, who in 1998 combined for 95 catches. Doesn't matter if they're 7th and 8th string wideouts, 95 catches is 95 catches. I haven't looked, but I doubt Marty Booker, Ted Ginn, Derek Hagan and David Martin combined for 95 catches this season.

    Can I point to where you said Glenn and Meadows weren't good players? Yes. In the thread you said that Manning only had 1 good lineman. So you either thought that Glenn wasn't up to much, or Meadows.

    Look around the Dolphins roster from last year that Beck worked with. Which 2 players there had future Hall of Fame ability, if you're using the argument that Faulk and Harrison weren't fully developed?

    I don't expect to hear from you.

    Clearly you know very little about football in that time, otherwise you would have known that Ken Dilger was considered a premier AFC tight end, as stated, for his all round game.

    So apart from a future Hall of Fame WR, a future Hall of Fame back, a premier AFC tight end and a field stretching #2 tight end and a #2 and #3 WR pairing that caught 95 passes between them and two great tackles, Manning had nothing.

    You make such a convincing argument.

    Not.
     
  10. general tso

    general tso New Member

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    I'm upset at the Manning comparison too. How can anyone compare Manning's 3 TDs, 12 turnovers, 11 sacks, and 4 losses in his first 4 games to Beck's 2 TD, 8 turnovers, 10 sacks and 4 losses in his first 3.5 games, especially when the supporting casts were miles apart (does anyone really want to compare Faulk, Harrison, Dilger, Pollard, Glenn, McKinney and Meadows to Chatman, Gado, Marty Bookier, Martin, Peele, Carey, Liewinski and Shelton?), Manning's team wasn't already 0-9 and Peyton didn't have to play a road game in one of the worst field conditions in NFL history?

    Considering the situations, Beck's first 3.5 games were better than Manning's. Which simply shows what is obvious to most... 3.5 games isn't nearly enough time to evaluate a rookie QB and predict their future success/failure.
     
  11. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Phil Simms recently said that Parcells likes big strong QBs that throw down the field. You decide if that fits Beck. And I think Phil Simms knows something about what Parcells wants in a QB. Call it a hunch
     
  12. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not sure Phil Simms ever fitted Parcells quarterbacking requirements and yet he was his most successful signal caller.
     
  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Agreed. Parcells will always goes with what works. If you dont have his prototype requirements but can still play he'll keep you around. Dat Ngyuen, Tony Romo, etc. But since he has no ties to Beck and is going to want to put his own mark on the team, he will definitely be drafting a prototype QB. Its just a question of which one he wants and what round he wants to pick them up. Ryan, Ainge, Flacco, etc. I dont think he'll go with Flacco because of the small school background but he has the size
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  14. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    If we do take a flier then I think it is Chad Henne.
     
  15. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Could be. He likes Michigan players. He's only 6'2" though but at least weighs a thicker 225 lbs. I think Ainge is a more likely pick later on but Henne is a possibility if they pass on Ryan
     
  16. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    Bottom line... we have no idea about Beck... period!

    Why?

    Because Cam had a flawed plan for Becks development in 2007 and failed to make adjustments when his flawed plan flat out failed... you just don't ask scout team players at the QB position to step on the field... and hostile fields at that.... supported by a flawed offense... with plays called to lesson risk instead of supporting the opportunity to succeed... and think we are going to see anything that resembles what Beck is or isn't...

    All this pontificating is whooee....

    The Dolphin organization has failed for DECADES to have a process in place to develop NFL caliber QB's... and yes that goes back to Shula... Danny (and Strock) spoiled us and basically took the importance of the process out of the equation...

    Let's see what BP and his new staff can accomplish with developing a process to secure the most important position on the field... and then find the talent to develop... Beck included....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  17. Jsbaugh

    Jsbaugh New Member

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    I think we need to take Ryan. He is a guaranteed winner and will take the Fins to the superbowl in his first year. This guy is a stud, with the arm of Brady and the brains of a tire iron. Dont worry about the fact he likes to throw to the other team, he wont do that in the pros. My Magic 8 ball told me all of this so its fact. It also told me the winning lotto numbers this week are 5,23,32,40,44 and 50 so Im on my way to put the down payment on my Ferrari. CYA
     
    Colorado Dolfan likes this.
  18. SuperMarksBros.

    SuperMarksBros. Active Member

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    i'm fine with this. im NOT fine with selecting a guy #1 overall, 1 year after selecting a guy early in the 2nd, and deciding he is not a franchise qb based on a 3+ game sample size
     
  19. SuperMarksBros.

    SuperMarksBros. Active Member

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    dont forget, he's a tuna kind of guy. we all know what tuna guys are, and we definately know that smaller guys without cannon arms like simms, pennington, and romo are NOT tuna guys
     
  20. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    You're right, they combined for 147 receptions....

    Booker and Ginn alone combined for 84 catches, and that's with 6 games Chambers was still on the Dolphins, making Ginn and Hagan 3rd and 4th string for those 6 games.

    It doesn't really matter though, since I never stated that Manning and Beck had comparable talent around them.

    Saying the '98 Colts had a better OL because of one player is also a stretch. There was a reason the Colts had the #1 overall pick, they were devoid of talent pretty much everywhere save for RB, 1 WR, and a LT......

    How does that translate into saying Beck had comparable weapons to what Beck had to work with? Using a similar statement for Beck, the Dolphins were pretty much devoid of talent everywhere.

    I can state that John Beck was pretty much devoid of talent, but that wouldn't mean he had 0 talent to work with. Every team has atleast a hand full of good/solid players on their team, but that doesn't mean they're standouts. I'd consider Vernon Carey and Samson Satele to be good players, but they aren't really strong impact players at this point in their careers (unless Carey moves back to RT). The Dolphins have a couple of great players (Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas), and several good players, but the majority of the roster consists of mediocrity or worse.

    In the '98 Colts case, I had already mentioned the impact talent they had at the time, Tarik Glenn included.

    The Colts had Harrison, Faulk, Glenn and Meadows in '97, and they were still 20th in scoring offense (19.6 points per game). A rookie QB wouldn't have made a difference.

    1997: The Colts quarterbacks dropped back to pass 585 times, they were sacked 62 times. One sack every 9.44 drop backs...

    1998: A rookie Peyton Manning dropped back to pass 597 times and got sacked just 22 times. One sack every 27.14 drop backs....

    Now, I'm sure Glenn and Meadows showed a great amount of improvement from their rookie seasons, to their 2nd year, but much of that was Peyton Manning. I will go on record in saying that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB I have ever seen when it comes to avoiding pressure in the pocket.

    The biggest difference I see between Manning and Beck, is that Manning makes his OL look better than what it is, while Beck, in the limited sample size we've seen him, has made his look worse. Of course there are other key differences like the time in which both players played and age.....

    Matters not that Pathon never had more thab 646 yards receiving; we're talking specifically about 1998 and the year he had 50 catches.

    Doesn't matter if they're 7th and 8th string wideouts, 95 catches is 95 catches.

    Well, since '98 stats are all that matters, Dilger had only 303 receiving yards in '98 (16 games). If we're going by your reasoning in this particular argument....

    I've gone on record in stating Dilger was solid, which he was. As a receiving option, Dilger was solid, he probably made as big an impact on the running game as he did in the passing game. You implied that he was a premiere receiving TE though, which he was not.

    For that particular time period...

    Tony Gonzalez, Ben Coates and Shannon Sharpe were premiere tight ends in the AFC. Dilger wasn't in that class.......

    Nowhere did I say that Manning had nothing to work with, just that his supporting cast was overstated. Saying Manning had a future Hall of Fame WR and RB, a "premiere AFC TE and a field stretching #2 TE, and a #2 and #3 WR that even approached being good between two great tackles, is extremely misleading.

    Marvin Harrison didn't show any improvement from his rookie season to his 2nd season. Marvin Harrison went from averaging 851 receiving yards and 7 touchdowns in his first 2 seasons, to 776 receiving yards and 7 touchdowns in 12 games with a rookie QB throwing to him. It isn't uncommon to see a WR take a big step in their 3rd year, but it is uncommon to see a WR doing that with a rookie QB throwing to him. Either way, to imply that Harrison was a Hall of Fame caliber WR in Manning's rookie year is extremely misleading.

    Implying that Peyton Manning had a great OL because he had 2 great offensive tackles is also extremely misleadding. You have to consider where they were in their respective careers, even if they were very good in their 2nd year as pros, the OL as a whole still wasn't as great as what you make them out to be.

    1997: The Colts quarterbacks dropped back to pass 585 times, they were sacked 62 times. One sack every 9.44 drop backs...

    1998: A rookie Peyton Manning dropped back to pass 597 times and got sacked just 22 times. One sack every 27.14 drop backs....

    The QB makes as big of a difference as the OL. Take 2006 as an example, when we had Joey Harrington and Daunte Culpepper.

    Duante Culpepper dropped back to pass 155 times and got sacked 21 times, one sack every 7.38 drop backs. Joey Harrington dropped back to pass 403 times and got sacked 15 times, once every 26.87 drop backs. Now, Joey Harrington did have a much better OL to work with (with Carey and Shelton switching), but not enough to make up the difference in sack rates. You could pretty much conclude, that Harrington was much better at avoiding the sack, regardless of the difference in OL play.

    I find it very hard to believe that the Colts OL improved that dramatically overnight, Manning was a huge factor.

    As for Faulk, he wasn't even considered a Hall of Fame back until he became a Ram. Faulk has always had Hall of Fame potential, but that potential was never realized until he had the supporting cast around him.

    Dilger and Pollard were solid receiving tight ends in '98 and Small and Pathon were the 3rd WR's.

    .....and since we're comparing what Manning did over his full rookie season compared to what Beck did in 4 games, Manning was a much better rookie.

    Manning had an adjusted QB rating of 68.02 as a rookie, Beck's was 42.85 (including QB kneels). My argument from the very beginning was that the difference in their supporting cast wasn't enough to offset the difference in production. The time in which Manning was a rookie was also before the 'no contact' rule was really enforced, combine that with the fact that Manning was thrown into the fire from the very beginning and was 4 years younger, and the two weren't really comparable.

    Likewise....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  21. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Not true....

    Manning's adjusted QB rating over his first 4 games was 46.10, Beck's was 42.85. While their performances were somewhat similar over their first 4 games, Manning played in an era in which it was harder to pass (the 'no contact rule' wasn't really enforced much in '98). Beck also had the luxury of sitting down and learning the offense for the first 10 weeks of the season, Manning was thrown into the fire from the very beginning. That's not even mentioning the 4 year difference in age......
     
  22. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    Please tell me how you have assessed John Beck's talent in terms of watching him play. No statistics please, I just want your descriptions of the deficiencies you see in his mechanics or game.
     
  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Manning played in an offense that had much much better talent at the Rb and Wr and Te positions, hands down, no question about it.

    Marcus Pollard or David Martin?
    Marty Booker or Pathon?
    Samkon Gado or Marshall Faulk?

    In re assesing the Beck pick, one thing that surprised me was how well he runs, 4.7 40, that is Steve Young type speed, yet he never really ran the ball on a scramble.

    4 games? 2 good ones, 2 bad ones, and a bang up job against the Bengals on a 1-15 team is not horrible, not great, but not needs to be replaced...
     
  24. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    I don't think you can compare what Manning and Beck did during their rookie seasons, without evaluating what the other quarterbacks on their respective teams did with similar talent.

    In Manning's case, his backups didn't have any passing attempts in his rookie season. The best you could do for a comparison is how the Colts '97 offense compared to the Colts '98 offense and compare the Colts '97 quarterbacks to Manning as a rookie with most of the same supporting cast. Also, what kind of a difference was there between the '97 quarterbacks we're using to judge Manning by to the the '07 quarterbacks we're using to judge the Beck by?

    In 1997 the Colts were 20th in the NFL scoring with 19.6 points per game. Their quarterbacks had a combined adjuted qb rating of 64.91. In 1998 the Colts were 19th in the NFL, scoring 19.4 points per game. Manning had an adjusted QB rating of 68.02 The Colts 3 quarterbacks were Jim Harbaugh (386 snaps, 73.43 adjusted Qb rating), Paul Justin (156 snaps, 69.97 adjusted QB rating) and a 2nd year Kelly Holcomb (89 snaps, 30.99 adjusted QB rating).

    From the Dolphins end, I'm not going to even mention Green's performance, as he had Chambers and a healthy Brown. Needless to say, he was our best QB in '07. Cleo Lemon would be the much better comparison.

    Cleo Lemon's adjusted QB rating was 67.02, granted 2 of those games were still with Chambers on the team and 3 of those games were with Ronnie Brown. Lemon's adjusted QB rating without Brown and Chambers was 53.26 (without factoring in QB kneels). That's still much better than Beck's 42.85 adjusted QB rating (factoring in his 1 QB kneel).

    Back to Jim Harbaugh and Peyton Manning, Harbaugh was better than Manning (73.43 adjusted QB rating compared to 68.02). There was still a much larger difference between the '07 Lemon and Beck than there was between the '97 Harbaugh and the '98 Manning. I guess it really depends on your opinion of Jim Harbaugh vs. Cleo Lemon. If you believe Cleo Lemon to be vastly superior to Jim Harbaugh, then I guess I could see how you might view John Beck and Peyton Manning as having comparable seasons. I'm not sure how anyone would come to that conclusion though....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  25. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    There's so much that goes into what makes a good, or even a great QB, part of that is knowing when to get rid of the ball, part of it is knowing when to step up into the pocket, part of it is down the field vision and finding the open man etc. John Beck has all the tools to become a very good QB, he has a very strong and accurate arm, to go along with good athleticism. My biggest problems with Beck are his low release point and his indecisiveness in the pocket, how much of that is just "rookie jitters" will determine what kind of QB he develops into.
     
  26. general tso

    general tso New Member

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    Explain this adjusted QB rating to me and how a difference of 3 points means anything significant. is it adjusted to account for a game in arguably the worst field conditions in NFL history? Is it adjusted to account for the obvious, to most, difference in talent between the two teams? Does it account for Indy actually mixing up the run/pass (i.e. letting Manning play) as opposed to everyone, including my football loathing wife, knowing what plays were going to be called when Beck was in there?

    Also, how much learning did Beck do while playing in the 3rd/4th quarters in the preseason, playing with soon to be cut scrubs in the last preseason game, running the scout team for the first 7-8 weeks and watching Green/Lemon's ineffectiveness? Didn't Manning practice with the first team all through camp and get prepared to be the starter all offseason? When Beck did get in, was his team not already 0-9 with the "here we go again" attitude any time something went wrong? How is that a "luxury" for Beck?
     
  27. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Actually, it's closer to 4 points considering I took Beck's "QB kneel" out of the equation. Since the game logs weren't available for Manning's rookie season, I couldn't find any such occasions when Manning sat on the ball.

    No...

    It also isn't adjusted to take into account the difference in eras, or the difference in age.

    Here's how it works:

    http://www.celtkin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2991

    I don't think you can compare what Manning and Beck did during their rookie seasons, without evaluating what the other quarterbacks on their respective teams did with similar talent.

    In Manning's case, his backups didn't have any passing attempts in his rookie season. The best you could do for a comparison is how the Colts '97 offense compared to the Colts '98 offense and compare the Colts '97 quarterbacks to Manning as a rookie with most of the same supporting cast. Also, what kind of a difference was there between the '97 quarterbacks we're using to judge Manning by to the the '07 quarterbacks we're using to judge the Beck by?

    In 1997 the Colts were 20th in the NFL scoring with 19.6 points per game. Their quarterbacks had a combined adjuted qb rating of 64.91. In 1998 the Colts were 19th in the NFL, scoring 19.4 points per game. Manning had an adjusted QB rating of 68.02 The Colts 3 quarterbacks were Jim Harbaugh (386 snaps, 73.43 adjusted Qb rating), Paul Justin (156 snaps, 69.97 adjusted QB rating) and a 2nd year Kelly Holcomb (89 snaps, 30.99 adjusted QB rating).

    From the Dolphins end, I'm not going to even mention Green's performance, as he had Chambers and a healthy Brown. Needless to say, he was our best QB in '07. Cleo Lemon would be the much better comparison.

    Cleo Lemon's adjusted QB rating was 67.02, granted 2 of those games were still with Chambers on the team and 3 of those games were with Ronnie Brown. Lemon's adjusted QB rating without Brown and Chambers was 53.26 (without factoring in QB kneels). That's still much better than Beck's 42.85 adjusted QB rating (factoring in his 1 QB kneel).

    Back to Jim Harbaugh and Peyton Manning, Harbaugh was better than Manning (73.43 adjusted QB rating compared to 68.02). There was still a much larger difference between the '07 Lemon and Beck than there was between the '97 Harbaugh and the '98 Manning. I guess it really depends on your opinion of Jim Harbaugh vs. Cleo Lemon. If you believe Cleo Lemon to be vastly superior to Jim Harbaugh, then I guess I could see how you might view John Beck and Peyton Manning as having comparable seasons. I'm not sure how anyone would come to that conclusion though....


    Somehow I get the feeling Beck would've been worse if we relied on him dropping back to pass 40+ times a game.

    So you're honestly saying that Beck didn't have an advantage sitting the first 10 weeks on the bench? One would think that Beck had a deeper knowledge of the Dolphins playbook having the entire preseason to learn it in addition to the first 10 weeks of the season.

    As for the Dolphins having that "here we go again" attitude, I'm sure they had that same feeling with Lemon.
     
  28. general tso

    general tso New Member

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    So you're honestly saying that Manning didn't have an advantage playing with the first team all summer, going into the season as the starter and having a 0-0 record to begin his career?

    There's a big difference between "knowledge of the playbook" and putting that knowledge to use in practice and preseason games with and against 1st teamers.

    To the Lemon versus Beck argument and the play calling, I'm not suggesting Beck would've been successful throwing 40 times, but the play calling was quite a bit different for Beck than Lemon (see Buffalo game), consistently setting Beck up for 3rd & long situations. When my wife's predicting what we'll do on first down, you know Beck doesn't have a chance.
     
  29. houtz

    houtz New Member

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    Beck will be fine. He's shown a lot of potential and he's hard working. That's something we haven't seen from our quarterback in quite sometime. I think our Quarterbacks coach (forget his name) will come in and work with him. Hopefully he will be starting from week 1.

    And if he doesn't pan out, it's just another 2nd wasted. It's no big deal really, we get one every year.
     
  30. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    You can't compare the expectations we had for Beck to the expectations Colts fans had for Manning. Beck was a 2nd rounder, Manning was the 1st overall pick.

    How often do most teams play their starters in the preseason? Maybe 6-10 quarters...

    I think the 2 1/2 months of additional preparation time worked in Beck's favor.

    What makes you so sure that Manning's playcalling was any easier? He did drop back to pass 40+ times a game.....

    You're not going to change my mind and I'm obviously not going to change your mind. We'll just agree to disagree....
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
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    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    If FinFans want a apples to apples comparison try John Beck's rookie season with Steve Young's on a god awful Tampa Bay Bucs team..

    As I recall, Young had 9 Td's other then that the two are pretty similar:

    Young:

    Beck 56.1

    Young 52.2

    Beck 1 TD

    Young 3 TD

    Young 8 int's

    Beck 3 Int's

    Young 5 Games started

    Beck 4 games started

    Young 935 yds

    Beck 540 or so

    John Beck compares favorably with Steve Young, they both played on really bad teams, they both had similar TD's and Games Started..

    Apples to apples finfellas...
     

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