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Things Learned this weekend

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by OSaban, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    The ONLY reason Indy lost was not because their defense, it was because Manning threw 2 picks and harrison fumbled, all in the red zone...That is th ONLY reason Indy lost
     
  2. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Things I've learned this week:

    Peyton Manning had 2 first ballot Hall of famers, 2 pro bowl offensive tackles and 2 premiere tight ends during his rookie season, thus John Beck and Peyton Manning had comparable rookie seasons.

    I feel a whole lot better about the Phins future knowing Beck has a chance developing into Peyton Manning, because he also struggled during his first 4 games.
     
  3. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Yes my boo boo I meant logan mankgins(sp?)
     
  4. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    2 of those picks went through the receivers hands, the Wayne catch was a difficult one, but the one at the 2 yard line was all on Kenton Keith. Of course the dropped balls at the end of the game didn't help either....
     
  5. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

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    I repeat: could Volek or Turner have done anything like they did on Sunday with our Offensive line. OL doing well automatically helps the Defense in general, because it keeps them OFF the field.
     
  6. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Indy's defense also gagged yesterday.
     
  7. phinfan0202

    phinfan0202 New Member

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    Or so we say. Don't get me wrong is Chambers ever going to be a receiver that regularly dominates the field of play? no, but with a good QB and a good offense he makes plays just like Wes Welker does when he has a good offense and players around him. Bottom line both of these receivers could have done the same thing with us if we had the talent to let them blossum but we don't.
     
  8. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    I didnt see the game. Was on my way home and listening to it on westward one. all the announcers said was that manning threw each pick.
     
  9. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    Little Rhody

    :death:
     
  10. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    :lol::up:
     
  11. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Thanks for the love man... OSABAN it's cause and and effect..., I'm not supporting two arguments... The top picks could be linemen one on either side of the ball and if a QB like Woodson/Brohm stumbles to 32 ..., well don't be surprised is all...

    Our Offensive impact is gonna look brutal unless something is done at FA and/or draft...
     
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  12. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    We don't know because we didn't have a Mike Turner or Billy Volek behind center this year.
    No offensive line would look good with the scrubs we had in from November through year end. Our O-line was good to very good with Brown and Green and Chambers. There's your correlation and proof that this O-line isn't as bad as the Flat Earth folks want to believe.


    Nothing would help our defense this year and we're not keeping any offense on the field next year unless we dramatically upgrade the skill positions players we have.
     
  13. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    NO NO NO
     
  14. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Manning did throw one that should've been picked off, but Merriman dropped it. The 2 interceptions were just great plays by the defense. The INT to Wayne was overthrown, but he got both hands on the ball, and tipped it into Cromarties hands. The other INT was thrown in traffic but right into Keith's hands, the ball ricocheted off his hands and into the defenders arms (great grab). Of course the media blames the game on Manning, they're fools.
     
  15. THCMAN

    THCMAN New Member

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    I've seen the last few Charger games and he hasn't dropped any easy passes, but he did just give up on a few routes after the ball was in the air, and he did fail to defend a pass or fight for it in the endzone which are two of the things he did on a regular basis while he was here. These are things I don't see other WR's do, at least not the good ones...

    I remember watching him totally slow down on a deep pass thinking, that's exactly what he did while he was here. He ended up having a great game stat-wise and he was a major reason why they won that game. You've just got to take the bad with the good some times. (and make sure not to overpay your players..:lol:)...
     
  16. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

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    I'm not saying we don't need help defensively, I'm saying if we fix the OL we have a chance to actually run an offense, not give the ball to Ronnie or throw the check down. A big part of our D woes started in the first game when the Redskins took a look at our secondary and said there's no way they can cover a #3 reciever set in a base D. Once they went to a 3 set, we had to counter by pulling a DL, adding a corner.We did fine for a while but after many 3 and out's the D wore down. That's where the OL comes in( if we had one we might have done something, like score). At that point they ran the ball. They had more blockers than we had big bodies, and the blueprint was cast. The rest of the teams just had to look at the film.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    what i noticed this weekend was how much of a joke it was for the cowboy players to act like it was a good change when wade phillips replaced parcells as head coach, they gloatingly talkedabout what a great move it was.

    They should of shut their mouths, because the lack of disipline in their game was obvious, That team needed parcells and all the stability that he brings to the table to be able to go all the way this year.

    They split up one year to early, too bad for you cowboy fans, thats what you get for talkin ###t about parcells.
     
  18. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

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    Chambers caught 3 passes for 67 yds and 1td. Good for him. I hope they have something left for the Cheats this Sun.
     
  19. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

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    Cowboy fan have the same playoff record they had when Parcells was there. So much for Phillips being such a great coach( although his dad was fun to watch and listen to).:up:
     
  20. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    the reason the colts lost is because their team isn't built properly

    they, just like the Redskins, don't address depth. They think that if they have the best starting lineup, they will have the best team. Unfortunately, every team in the NFL has to deal with injuries. And when someone like Marvin Harrisson, or Dwight Freeney gets hurt, there is a huge dropoff.

    If you get lucky, and stay relatively healthy, you are in good shape (e.g. '06 Colts). Unfortunately, not having injuries is a rarity.
     
  21. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :rolleyes:

    I'm still waiting for you to address my point about the OL and it's effect on the rest of the offensive positions.
    :lol:

    Point out one meaningless fact in my posts, please.

    We haven't spent countless high round draft picks on the OL! I'm not sure why you keep repeating that like it's a fact.

    Carey was a 1st rounder and Satele was a 2nd. Shelton was a FA, Hadnot and Mormino were 6th rounders, Liwienski, Rosenthal and Lekkerkerker were FA signings, Toledo was a 4th, Wade Smith was a 3rd, McKinney was a 3rd and Wade was a 2nd.

    So since 2000 the Phins have spent:
    1 first rounder
    2 2nd rounders
    2 3rd rounders
    1 4th rounder
    And a number of late round picks

    It's not like we've been picking up OL after OL in the 1st and second rounds year after year. Our OL's have been made up mostly by journeymen, underachieving players and wasted draft picks, not 1st round investments and prized FA's. The OL was sorely neglected for many years, this team put all of its money in the defense for the longest time.

    Was the OL better last year? Absol-friggin-lutely.

    Should we say "Well, the OL is better than it has been for a while. We don't need to improve it anymore"? Absolutely not.

    Also, you find better players in the first few rounds of the draft. Sure there are times when you can find a gem in the later half of the draft, but you are more likely to find real talent at the top.

    I have pointed out the lack of talent on the Phins for a while now, I've pointed to injuries in many of my posts. So drop the whole "you're ignoring and giving platitudes" nonsense.

    A great OL can make average QB's and RB's look good, look at the Denver Broncos and their revolving door of 1,000 yards rushers as an example. It's simple, when the pass protection and running lanes are there, players will look good. When the QB is being pressured and the RB is constantly hit behind the line of scrimmage, even the best players will look bad. A good example of that would be Ronnie Brown when he was hit behind the line on a consistent basis or Tony Romo last night when the Giants were in the backfield nonstop.

    As FinaticalOne pointed out, the Pats currently have a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, a 3rd rounder, a 4th and an undrafted FA as their starting 5. The Pack currently have 2 2nd rounders, a 3rd rounder and 2 7th rounders in their starting 5. The Bolts have a 2nd, 2 3rds and have done a fantastic job finding starters in the later rounds, but that shouldn't be looked at as the norm. It takes alot of luck and some skill to pick out those players on day 2. And I'm not even taking into account all of the picks that these teams made in the early rounds that didn't pan out or are backups like I did with Miami.

    Point being, Miami hasn't drafted or spent wise $$$ to fix the OL, for many years the OL was an afterthought. The reason that there hasn't been any continuity or stability with our OL is because we haven't had players worth keeping. We've drafted low or poorly and we've spent money for journeymen and underachievers. When has Miami spent on a probowl caliber OL in FA? If you say Shelton, this whole board will fall into one simultaneous belly laugh.

    The answer is "we haven't".

    Funny thing is, I'm not a "Draft Jake Long" guy (I want defense with the #1), but I've been suckered into this debate because you just don't get it. Everything on offense does indeed start with the OL, if they don't do their job the skill players don't get a chance to do theirs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  22. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Taking those facts out of context so you can make a dramatic statement, no?

    Noone is saying that Beck is the next Peyton Manning, what we are saying is "Be patient". Quite a big difference from your above statement.
     
  23. dredd1050

    dredd1050 New Member

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    I don't know about that, but I can see this kid turning out like a Derrius Thompson.
     
  24. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Despite all my criticisms of Beck's rookie season, I've never once stated he that he lacks the ability to develop into a quality starter. I just think it's absurd that because Beck lacked receiving talent, that he is above any criticism.
     
  25. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Noone said that he is above criticism, but the criticism that he has been getting here like "He sux, OMFGlolz" or "He's a BUST after 4 games" is unwarranted and ridiculous.
     
  26. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    I'm with you too:stupid:
     
  27. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    lol

    I guess that would make you stupid as well, eh? ;)
     
  28. psingh01

    psingh01 New Member

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    Get outta here! Fiedler in 2001 had similar numbers to many of Troy Aikman's seasons. That doesn't mean he is anywhere near the class that Aikman was. Numbers can lie, especially when they are used to argue that Jay Fiedler was anything more than a bum. Now we've had bigger bums since him, but he was still a bum! :)
     
  29. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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  30. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    You don't think that players can wear down mentally when their team is continually losing?

    Yes Ronnie Brown is a great back, yes he did VERY well until he was injured, but do you remember how well he played when the OL was playing poorly last year?

    And Chatman was doing pretty well until he was injured, how do you account for that?
    Can you even follow a conversation? I mean seriously, talking with you is more than a little frustrating when you misquote, talk down to people and ignore valid points.

    I said, and I quote....."On OFFENSE, it all starts with the OL"....../quote.

    As I said before, in order for the skill players to get the ball into their hands, the OL needs to block the defense long enough for the QB to drop back, make his reads and then get rid of the ball. If the QB is constantly under pressure, he doesn't have the luxury of letting the offense develop infront of him. That's why Wes Welker was so productive for us last year, he was the recipient of alot of dump passes by a pressured QB. It's also why Randy McMichael did so poorly, because the OL wasn't doing their job he was used primarily as a blocker and not as a receiver. See how that works? It's simple, really it is, I swear.

    5 high picks in 8 years is a large amount? :lol:

    And like I said, I didn't take into account all of the players that teams like the Pats, Bolts, etc picked in the top 2-3 rounds that are either backups or no longer with the team, I only used their starting 5 when I gave those numbers. If you like I can go and search all of the picks that each of the teams with the top 10 OL in football have used to select lineman in the same period of time.

    More misquoting and overly dramatic posting.

    Who said we should "go crazy" adding OL? I wasn't aware that adding to and improving an area of the team was considered "going crazy".

    Noone is disputing that there are MAJOR holes on this team. Any team that goes 1-15 has a serious lack of talent as I (and many others) have pointed out several times. But does that mean that we should pass on upgrading the OL if an opportunity arises to do so?

    If that's the case, pull a quote, keep it in context and put me in my place. Simple enough, no?

    And for the last time, enough with the attitude. You've done nothing but treat your fellow members with disrespect all throughout this thread.

    Really? I could have sworn that the Giants were in the backfield all throughout that 2nd half. Sure Crayton and others dropped alot of passes, but how many times was Romo flushed out of the pocket and failed to throw the ball away?

    I'm going to do a little homework and find all of the picks that teams with top 10 OL's have spent on their linemen since 2000 so we can compare. You seem to have blocked out the fact that we had the highest payed defense for many years with the likes of JT, Zach, Madison, Surtain, etc.....the OL was an afterthought.

    :lol:

    You actually have to have a player before you give him up. That was a horrible trade, but at the same time it was only 1 draft pick. 1 trade for 1 draft pick does not mean that they made the OL a priority.

    Again, pull a quote where I said that before spouting your garbage. Infact, I have been very complimentary of this OL this yaer, but the sad fact is they struggled towards the end of the year.

    You do if you are willing to pay the price (Hutchinson, Steinbach, Dielman, Bentley, Diem, Pace, Jones, Neal, Tait, etc all hit the market and were available in the last couple years). Who did we sign? Shelton, Bennie Anderson, McIntosh, McDougle, etc....:sleep1:

    Last warning on personal comments

    Pull a quote

    For the very last time, I have talked repeatedly about the lack of talent on this team even when everyone is healthy.

    No it doesn't. What did Cam and Randy talk about when they wanted to fix the offense?
    "you build it from the middle out". What area of the football team does Parcells value? The lines, both offensive and defensive. "It all starts up front" isn't meaningless, it's the way you build a solid football team.

    Again, look at the Broncos and their revolving door 1,000 yard rushers.

    All of this nonsense because people want to upgrade the OL. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
    REV KEV likes this.
  31. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Hmm, a good OL will make a crappy QB look decent, but wont get the team over the top. A great QB can make a line look better than what it is, but in crunch time, again, it will crumble.
    In case nobody has noticed, there is NO one position that is supreme overlord of need. Should we take some looks? How about Minnesota? AWESOME line-mcKinney/Hutch/Birk are all some of the best at their spots. They opened gaping holes for AP, and gave jackson time to throw. But Jackson is a mediocre QB, and when they needed him late in the season, he couldnt do it.
    Now look at the Cowboys the other day. Romo is an upper echelon QB, but when his line fell apart, so did he.
    You need depth and balance at ALL positions if you want to be a success. Look at the Pats-all pro QB, great recievers, solid runner, and a really good OL. It all comes togther and complements each other. Take one of those factors out and the whole team drops a level. Take away his great OL, put him behind someones like KC or Detroit and he wouldnt be nearly as good. Trade Brady with Travaris jackson and the Pats likely are beat by JVille. Take away Moss and Welker and who is Brady bombing it to? See what I mean?
    It doesnt matter what position comes up. When your drafting and your pick is called, you identify your biggest areas of needs, and take the best player for one of those areas. You build all positions equally, and then keep reinforcing them as the Pats keep doing.

    All this arguing is pointless. Go ahead and blow our first 4 picks on the OL and watch as we still get beat when we run into a good secondary or pass rush. Go ahead and buy a load of WRs and watch as the OL shatters against a superior D. Go ahead and draft Matt Ryan and watch him get David Carrized (I made up a word yeah!) if we dont upgrade the OL.

    Sorry, im not satisfied with the OL as it is. We have some good parts, and yeah, I understand the concept of continuity, but not at the cost of talent upgrade. We need another WR to team with Ginn. We need a backup plan for Beck incase he isnt the answer. And, at this point in time, we need a semblance of a defense. Recruiting Air for our DL was not a good move last season obviously.

    Dont get caught up in positional importance-it doesnt matter. Just go out and draft smart, get players, plug em in, go out and play football.
     
  32. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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  33. Dmarino110

    Dmarino110 New Member

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    1. I agree

    2. You know I read this and i hope you realize how dumb it is. If you've ever played football at all, you would know that if your O-line sucks then the offense sucks. You need more than 2 seconds for a 5 step drop, hell you need more than 2 seconds for a 3 step drop.

    How do you think those qbs would do (they are all fantastic) if they had a lineman in their faces before they could read the field? How well would Brady or Farve do if they were on the ground every other play? How many sacks did you see against the winning teams? Not many is the answer and the reason for that is that they all have great Olines.
     
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  34. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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  35. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    Lol... Huh? is that why they are 13-3? :confused2:
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  36. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Why this discussion has gone on for so long kind of boggles me - the BPA at our first pick is a defensive lineman, no way around it. Thankfully, it's also a critical need on this team. This is so simple - defense receives a higher priority than offense, but don't ignore the offensive line. Draft a QB 2nd day, grab a TE in there and a WR. Scour FA to find the right role-players to add depth to the team. Done.
     
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  37. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    When you keep a thread going based on a phony and erroneous premise (Our O-line sucks) this is what happens.

    We haven't had anything close to Favre or Brady in 10 years so this idea of comparing how they would do in this offense vs Cleo Lemon or AJ Feeley/Joey Harrington, whoever behind any line is also a bad comparison, imo.

    All I was trying to do was expand the discussion of our roster away from the very popular but easy to mislead and overstate claim that our O-line sucks and we never spend and money or draft picks trying to fix it. In two days we hire a coach whose specialty is working with O-lines. We just fired one of the best ever line coaches who did some good things here like develop Hadnot, Carey and Satele and was probably instrumental in drafting Mormino and Toledo so I'm not so pessimistic about the state of our line as most of you are. I see continuity as the key to putting together a good line, others see adding first day picks at the expense of other sorely needed positions. We agree to disagree.

    This has become a dumb argument. I'm not disputing that every team needs a good OL, I'm disputing that our O-line sucked last year based on the last ten games when we had no skill position players starting on offense. No O-line could make Lemon, Gado and Hagan look good. They are all marginal backups at best.

    All I'm saying is that if you look at where the roster needs the most help it isn't on the O-line. Yeah, we need a better LT and better guard play and I agree with a previous poster who wrote that we need help and upgrades at every position
     
  38. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    [mod]Personal comments are not allowed. Please be respectful to your fellow FH members.[/mod]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2008
  39. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I will say about Chambers and mainly why we traded him, was that he was being paid high #1 $$$$$$, and he is not nearly a high #1 WR.

    If he was making Booker $$$ or less, he would still be here - and we would find a true #1 to help him out.
     
  40. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Very well put, thank you. :thumbup:
     

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