Speculation-Dolphins in Trade Talks with Cardinals?

all this talk about pennington limiting what boldin can do here is ludacris!

anyone tell me who the cardinals QB was with boldin before warner and lienart?

go ahead look it up....look at boldins stats, including his rookie of the year award....

ok.....now tell me pennington wouldnt help him one more time....

 

I lost.

I swore this would only get to 22 posts before someone brought up Wannidiot passing on Boldin.

 

To be honest brother, I don't really know what to expect from Wake. He was undrafted, signed as an UDFA and cut, then became an excellent CFL player, which doesn't necessarily translate to an excellent (or even pretty good) NFL player. To me he is a wait and see type of guy. Hopefully he can develop into a very good player, but that still doesn't solve our LB concerns on the inside.

I like Boldin alot as a player, but after seeing the way he acted this year, everything from openly complaining to the media about his contract, having a shouting match on the sidelines with a coach during a huge playoff game, to bolting the stadium instead of celebrating with his teammates, that's a major character red flag for me. I think if he were to come here and see less passes come his way (due to system and QB) that he might start up again. I'd prefer to spend the pick on a guy who will get our running game in gear, a guy like Mack or Robinson.

 

I'd give the 25th pick, and an arm or leg of mine. Their choice.

(but they can't have both)

Seriously, I think Hakeem Nicks has a chance to be a special player, but I know that Boldin already is one. You're taking a risk there. Boldin is only 28-years old and he's already a Pro Bowl WR. You don't get such guarantees anywhere in the draft. Pull the trigger if it's on the table.

 

Parcells has already said our offense needs to get more explosive, so we're not aiming to be just a 3 yards and a cloud of dust team. If this front office is serious about going after Boldin, then they must think WR is a hole they need to fill.

I've seen the argument from a few people that Boldin would be a waste because Pennington doesn't have the arm to take advantage. To me that argument is shortsighted, as it basically assumes that most of Boldin's worth is to go deep. What Boldin does is get open, whether it's 10 yards down the field, 25 or 40. And Pennington has enough of an arm and accuracy to get him the ball on those intermediate routes.

He is worth at least the 25th pick in the draft because he is a proven commodity of considerable talent. Draft picks are great, and the way to build your team. But you shouldn't be so infatuated with them that you turn a blind eye to the ability to acquire proven talent. To counter another argument I saw earlier, trading draft picks didn't kill this team. Poor personnel management did. Does anyone think New England wants their 4th back for Randy Moss? Did the Jets feel shortchanged trading a 1st and 3rd for Curtis Martin?

Smart organizations acquire talent any way they can.

 

Josh McCown who has much better arm strength than Penny. Boldin and Fitz could play off of each other, they could use their abilities to get open and McCown could chuck it down the field. Here Boldin will be double teamed, he may get open, but Penny won't throw downfield with the same consistency as a Kurt Warner to take advantage of any separation that Boldin may get.

Penny is a great game manager, he might very well have a good chemistry with Boldin if he were brought in, but he isn't going to make the throws that Warner can make and his presence would have a negative ripple effect on the rest of our WR's who would see their production drop at a time when they should be taking the next step.

The systems are different, the QB's are different, you can't expect Boldin to have the same impact here that he had in Zona. I just don't think that he'll be worth the cost in this offense.

 

Matt Leinart has comparable arm strength with Penny and in 2006 when he started 12 games Boldin had 1200 yards and his career high in YPC

 

I think you are missing the point. In the Cardinals' offense, Larry Fitzgerald is the guy that runs down the field and catches the bombs from Warner. Anquan Boldin is the guy that catches the short to intermediate routes and takes them to the house. Of course, that's not always the case, but that tends to be the pattern from the games I have seen.

Boldin is actually a great fit for this offense. He does not need a QB with a big arm to be dangerous. He is a great combination of a possession receiver who can take it to the house. He also blocks well which would be a nice bonus for that run-based offense you have been talking about.

As for the other arguments in this thread, I really don't understand them. Some people seem to be trying to say that Boldin would be a greater risk than a draft pick. I think that's ludicrous. Others are focusing on the value of the #25 pick (talent vs. salary). In some drafts, this argument might have merit. But in this draft, I'm not so sure. Most of the guys that could really be immediate impact players for us (Crabtree, Maualuga, Raji, even Jerry & Laurinaitis) are likely to be gone. I actually don't like our position at all because I think we could ultimately grab a guy at #25 (like Sintim, Matthews, or English) that might be there in the #30-40 range.

 

No, Ludacris is the pop culture icon.

Ludicrous is Boldin not being an upgrade regardless of QB.

 

Not at all brother, my point is that we would be bringing in a guy that would A) be coming to a team that is more of a run oriented offense, B) is going to push Ginn into playing that deep WR role and limit his development in a crucial year, and C) who has been very vocal to the media and on the sidelines about his displeasure with his contract and role with the team. Yes part of Boldin's game will be taken away due to Penny's lack of arm strength and the playcalling, but it's only one of the reasons that I think we would be better served using our 1st rounder on another position of need.

Not really risk, more value on this team (in this system) than anything. We need to be able to run the ball up the middle, something that didn't happen last year and you know that Parcells is going to make that a priority. We more than likely are letting Crowder walk and we don't have any playmaking or starter quality ILB, that needs to be addressed early and often in FA and the draft. The secondary is another year older and needs some infusion of youth and talent, this is another area that needs attention. I think a #1 WR like Boldin is a luxury at this point, considering the other needs on the team. You don't paint your car before you knock out the dents.

Did Parcells say that we need to become more explosive on offense? Yep, but that doesn't necessarily mean the WR spot, it may mean that we bolster our running game along the OL. Parcells has also written that he isn't above lying to get an upperhand, that could very well be another smokescreen to hide our intentions in the draft. With everyone and their mother assuming that Pitt is hot on the trail of Mack in the upcoming draft and our obvious need to improve the C spot, might that be a way of masking our desire for a guy like Mack or Unger so another team doesn't feel the need to trade up and pick one of those players before our spot at #25?

At this point this is all speculation, our interest in Boldin, who we are targeting in the draft, etc. It's fun to speculate, but we shouldn't take every offseason rumor seriously because most of them don't pan out.

 

no, but you can add new set of tires to make that baby run better. ive seen a lot of dented cars win the daytona 500

 

IMO the idea that we shouldn't acquire Boldin b/c Chad can't throw deep is both incorrect and misguided. First, Boldin is more of a short pass guy that gets lots of YAC. Second, CP is our QB now but may not be by the end of the season. You don't pass up good players b/c of a short term limitation in your passing game. (I don't even agree with the CP can't throw long crowd, but I didn't want to add an additional debate here).

Now the question of whether or not Boldin is worth our 25th is debatable. That's just a talent vs. cost thing. I believe he's clearly worth our 1st but I'm not sure how much more (if any) I'd be willing to offer.

 

Different offenses though and he also had Fitzgerald on the opposite side of the field competing for the defense's attention. Almost 500 of those yards came when Warner was the starter. IMO we should let Ginn develop and focus our attention elsewhere.

 

i agree , sure there is a chance we could get an impact player and fill a need, or we could get a young wr, who is proven and definately fill the hole..

 

I don't quite understand the claim that we are a run-oriented offense. We have a power running game. Sure. But it's not like we're running the ball a significant amount more than we are throwing the ball.

As far as Ginn's development, I don't see how bringing in a guy to take the pressure off him would stunt that. I think that's pure speculation. In fact, bringing in a legit #1 would likely be a boon for Ginn in that he would see more single man coverage.

As far as his attitude, I cannot blame Boldin. The Cardinals threw a ton of cash towards Fitz and essentially just stiffed him. He claims that they made pseudo-promises that they would get him a new deal and are now balking at it. I don't think he has handled the situation inappropriately at all.

We've already put a lot of resources into upgrading the offensive line. Do we have holes all over? Sure. I just think that #1 WRs are hard to come by . . . as evidenced by our problems there. If you have a chance to grab an established one with a low 1st round pick, I think you have to seriously consider it. My dream scenario would be if we could get Quan for a 1st and Beck.

 

This sounds like some wishful thinking on the part of Cards fans. He's not worth the 35th pick plus a player and / or another draft pick.

 

i disagree he is a icon.......

 

We are a run oriented team, or at least that's the type of team that Parcells and Co. are trying to build here. Our inability to run between the tackles and control the clock was glaring this year and we passed the ball more because of it. I think once the FO has the personnel in place to run the ball the way they would like to, you'll see that pass/run ratio change dramatically.

If we want to develop Ginn into a #1 WR and get the most out of him as a player, we need to give him more responsibility and more passes in his direction. Someone posted a stat that showed that Ginn's hands are very reliable and it suggests that more passes his way would result in greater development into that #1 WR we crave so badly. Will he ever be as good as Boldin? Who knows? But we won't be doing any favors by not finding out what we already have in Ginn, especially during this important 3rd year. By bringing in Boldin you would change Ginn's role dramatically, he would become the #2 and be used more as a speed threat, a role and aspect of Ginn's game which we haven't utilized because of our QB's physical limitations. I don't see how that's speculation, we aren't going to be the type of team that has 2 80+ catch 1,000 yard WR's. One of those players (Boldin or Ginn) is going to see less opportunities, I don't think we would bring Boldin in here and pay him top dollar only to put up average numbers.

I don't care what the situation is or how upset you are as a player, openly complaining about your situation and distancing yourself from your teammates does nothing but hurt a team. His claims are just that, that doesn't mean that the Cards promised him anything. Chad Johnson made alot of claims last year as well and when he realized that he wasn't going to be able to force the Bengals hand he tucked tail and returned to the Bengals. It happens all the time in sports, I don't know why his word is any more credible than any other player who feels that he is worth more than what he's being payed.

As a player you have a responsibility to your team and your teammates, Boldin spent all of last year complaining about his contract status and causing a commotion.

We have invested alot in the OL, but we have one player who doesn't fit the style of offense in Satele, you have Thomas who missed all of last year due to injury and we realy didn't get a chance to see what type of player he is. He showed flashes, but we shouldn't just assume that he'll come back at 100% and be worthy of a starting job. Carey may be coming back and he may not (I think he will), but the OL is far from settled and we should focus on that so we can allow Ronnie and Ricky to run up the middle.

Normally I would agree, but there is still alot of work to do and I think we already have the pieces in place to pass the ball effectively, with the exception of a tall redzone target.

 

When you're inside the 20 you can never have enough big targets.

 

Couldn't agree more, brother. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Joey Haynos is going to develop into one of those big targets.

 

That is not the issue.

 

I would rather not have a complainer who makes scenes on the sidelines, and in the press.

Seems like a selfish guy.

 

If it was me, and we wanted a receiver with pick 25, I would draft Nicks. Let him grow with this team, and then when Henne takes over, everyone is hitting their strides at the same time. Boldin would be nice though, just depends on the final price tag.

 

Here is a link to a site that put up some cool stats...
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html

Stats can be made to help either side of the fence. It is KNOWN that Chad does not have a strong arm by any means. But he can still throw a good deep ball and be accurate with it. I keep thinking about the Seahawks game...he threw into double coverage to GINN. The pass was amazing...but he also did not hit the wide open guy on the play.

He is what he is... But having a player like Boldin (Who is thought to be #1 in the NFL after the catch...) would really help Ginn and Pennington.

 

Boldin for our 25th pick would be like us robbing the Cardinals and them thanking us for it.
But if we have to give up significantly more than that, I don't think I'd be for it. A WR is a WR, no matter how good, and having one or not having one isn't going to be the difference between a first-round out and a SuperBowl. We have several needs and I don't see using more than one of our higher round picks on a WR.

 

Boldin for a 25th pick...yeah.

But not sure they would even trade him for that. If Miami already had a NT, CB, LB, for the future...I would say give up maybe a 3rd with it. But we do not have that right now.

So...a 1st round pick is the line for me.

 

As for the how good would Boldin be with out Fitz question, 101 catches for 1,377 yards the one season he played with out him. Of course he had Jeff Blake and Josh McCown throwing to him. The 25th is absolutely good value.

That being said, I don't know that it’s the move for the Phins. I think we have bigger needs, but if Parcells Inc. decides that it’s in our best interest I don't know that I can disagree with their records with trades at this point.

 

I think the X factor in all this on the Cardinals side is Steve Breaston. The 2nd year man also had a 1000 + yard season and that with Fitz and Boldin ahead of him on the depth chart. If Breaston didn't turn out as good as he had we may not even be talking about Boldin being traded.

Breaston had 77 receptions and 1006 yards to Boldin's 89 rec's and 1038 yards. Breaston averaged 13.1 yards per reception with 3 TD's to Boldins average 11.7 yards per reception and 11 TD's.

He may not have the physical presence as Boldin does but I am pretty sure the Cardinals front office would rather spend less $$ with Breaston than have two heavy $$ hitters running routes in Boldin and Fritz.

 

And how many pro athletes get frustrated and whine when they want their contracts extended and that doesn't happen? A lot.

The guy has a whining problem that worries me but nowhere near bad enough not to take him, has he done anything close to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss, or Terrell Owens's level? Nope in fact other than his whining over money he had just that one incident, plus have you ever seen how Kurt Warner argued and got angry with Haley this season? It happened pretty often and was called being competitive and I think that's what Boldin's deal was so it wasn't a big deal. Trust me Warner got in Haley's face plenty of times.

 

True, but adding a WR by trading the #25 pick doesn't fill the OLB, DB, OL help that we need more than a WR...

We are going to probably lose either Carey or Crowder...hole to fill. We will probably lose either Goody or Hill...two more holes to fill. We have no depth in the OL..holes to fill...we need a replacement for Fergy and Porter at some point soon...more holes...

I'm on the bandwagon to get a WR, but giving up both cash and picks for one, even one as good as Boldin... Too much and doesn't fit the most need position we have...

 

That's a very misleading stat to say the least because, as some pointed out in that blog, it penalizes players if their team calls screen passes and also penalizes them if they choose to throw the ball away instead of taking a sack. A slightly more accurate, but still very flawed, way to do it would be to base it on actual completions rather than attempts. It seems silly that some of the obviously stronger armed QB's are behind Pennington in "air yards" because they attempted far more passes and have a lower completion percentage. Averaging all of their completions together to come up with one universal stat doesn't help the case either.

Or as my stat geek Raider fan friend (Mach) said...

"20+20=40

40+0=40

Same amount of air yards, no? Clearly they have the same arm. "



I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned and quickly gets forgotten is how a defense plays against Penny. Boldin and Fitz are able to work "the inside" because there is a threat of the long ball, defenses have to respect Kurt Warner's arm as well as Boldin and Fitz's ability to go get it. Defenses don't play Penny that way, they actually cheat a little bit to defend against the run, which would make the room Boldin has to work alot more crowded and possibly resulting in a lower YAC.

We have to remember what we all said about Penny before this year, before this year he was a "noodle arm" who had no arm strength and who threw "wounded duck" deep balls. Nothing changed since then, other than the fact that he wears our jersey. He just doesn't have the arm strength or zip to his passes that the other big armed QB's have, and defenses play him accordingly. And Penny (to his credit) doesn't even attempt certain passes that other QB's make on a consistent basis.

Like you said, he is what he is, he's a very good game manager that has physical limitations.

 

True, Warner got in Haley's face during the same game as Boldin, the difference was that Warner and Haley were both smiling about it immediately afterwards, where Boldin stomped away.

Also I'm not too sure that Boldin is going to be able to go back to not being a distraction easily, he spent at least the last calender year pouting about his contract, I wonder how much of that has changed his personality when dealing with the team and coaches. He may not be on the same pain in the *** level as a Moss or Owens, but he's definitely shown that he's more concerned with his personal situation, which isn't something that Parcells and Co. look at in a positive way (see Jason Taylor).

 

I'd give up that 25th pick for him in a heartbeat!.. No way any WR entering this years draft can compete with Boldin... none. And he wont need any NFL game speed adjustment , like all college players do. get it done Jeff.

OK now back to reality.. He will be HIGHLY sought after and at this stage of the "rebuild", I doubt BP/JI will want to spend so much (draft pick, contract) on a WR. So I doubt we land him. Would be nice tho.....

 

All I'll say is that he's better than anything we have and we paid more for some of them.

 

wait, we give up our 1st for Anquan AND the cards later round pick and or player? or vice versa... He isnt worth a 1st AND a player or later round pick... actually, if the pick was some scrub we have, then maybe, but not worth 2 draft picks

 

I think this is a misunderstanding. Our inability to run between the tackles, aside from losing Thomas at G and Satele's poor play (whether related to just being overmatched or the torn labrum), could have just as much to do with our inability to threaten defenses with our passing game. If defenses are not worried about big play threats from your receivers, they are free to stack the box. So one could just as easily argue that Boldin would aid us in the very department that you claim we need to improve.

Again, this is merely speculation and, actually, poor logic. I could take the very same argument and say that Patrick Cobbs should be our starting RB because his productivity versus carries was so extraordinary. Using statistics in this manner doesn't necessarily prove anything. Aside from one game, Ginn has not shown anything to suggest he can be the #1 WR we need. Lots of great #1 WRs developed into their role by taking advantage of playing behind other great receivers (Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt immediately come to mind). As far as lost opportunities go, the detriment you claim is only legit if we are actually stealing away productivity from Ginn, and again, nothing has yet suggested that will be the case. I feel it's wishful thinking to expect Ginn to put up such high numbers as our #1.

This is just a difference of opinion, but I will say this . . . most people will still take Chad Johnson on this team. Nothing about what Johnson or Boldin have done suggests a poor work ethic. They are simply great players in crappy situations who got sick of biting their tongues. I think that hardly qualifies them for TO status.

I find it a huge stretch to claim that he caused a "commotion" for the "last year." His team made it to the Super Bowl. Honestly, how many times did you hear about him speaking out about his contract? I hardly remember it at all, and I think he did a pretty good job of keeping his mouth shut as compared to other players in recent history.

Whether or not we trade for Boldin, you have to assume our offensive line is in pretty decent shape. Sure, we could sign a center or draft one, but I again think it's a stretch to start throwing out guard as a more legitimate concern than a #1 WR. Thomas earned a starting spot, and we just played an entire season without him and won our division playing multiple backups. Also, again, creating more of a threat in the passing game is just as effective at helping the run game as is upgrading the offensive line (which we already did last year through the draft and free agency).

 

I just ran across it during a search...who knows if it is worth anything...

But lets look at what they are saying...IF I am reading it right.
The Air Yards... (Yards passing beyond the line of scrimmage to the receiver.)

Pennington, Chad:

(NFL Stats)
Completions: 371
Attempts: 555
Completion %: 66.8
20+: 38 (14th rank)
40+: 8 (10th rank)

(AIR YARDS - Site Stats)
Total Yards After The Catch: 3653
Air Yards: 1546
Air Yards%: 42

Those numbers just shows the Fins WR were making a lot of yards after the catch. No big surprise there...lol. I remember Bess being a tank on several plays last year. He may be little, but man he hates to go down. Sure there are a couple of other QB's that are MUCH BETTER than Chad that finished worse in Air Yards. But that also has a lot to say about the WR's ability to make yards after the catch. Chad was ranked 12th in AIR YARDS...not real great at all. Brees was about 1000 yards more than him in AIR YARDS. That sounds about right...Drew loves the deep routes. Hell I love the DEEP ROUTES...!!! But Chad still did well with it.

Teams do not worry about a bullet pass mid-to-deep. But they do worry about a pass with touch that is pretty close to being on the money. His arm will limit the offense on some plays. But he has more than enough talent to make plays built around him. He does have a good deep ball, when it comes to connecting with the receiver.

But adding any player like Boldin will help this team move the chains. Our passing game is also part of our running game. We throw a ton of passes for 3-5 yards...as if it is a run play. I would love to see the Fins get Boldin, if it only cost us a 1st round pick. It will help Pennington and Henne for years to come.

I also think the Dolphins have more glaring needs...But when a good deal comes along...you take it. If the Cards unload him for a 1st...it is a good deal. Anything past that...gets shaky for one player and a huge contract.

...as far as P. Manning, he just had a down year compared to his talent level. But pretty much any stat version you want to break down a player, Chad Pennington did a pretty good job. He is NOT the future of this team. But could very well lead it for a couple of seasons.

 

Not really, when Pennington was in NY with Coles, Moss, etc opposing teams were still stacking the box and daring Penny to beat them in the air. Any Jet fan could tell you that or look back at our own comments when we were playing the Jets and what we said we needed to do in order to win the game.

Bringing Boldin in may stretch the field a bit, but it isn't going to make Satele any stronger or any more physical, it isn't going to make Thomas or Smiley come back and play like they did prior to their injuries and it isn't going to change the fact that opposing defenses don't respect Chad's arm the way they do a Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler, etc. They'll still continue to cheat against the run and dare Penny to beat them in the air.

We could also speculate that if we wore visibility cloaking uniforms that we would score more points, but there isn't prior example from which to use to back up that argument. What we do have past examples for is how a Parcells run team goes about their business. We know that Parcells favors a run oriented offense that employs a 2 RB system and relies on short to intermediate passes and an offense that also makes good use of the TE in the passing game. Only 2 times throughout his whole coaching career has Parcells ever had 2 1,000 yard receivers on his team, one was with the Jets in '98 when they had no TE to speak of, and then again in Parcells last year of coaching in Dallas when he had Terrell Owens forced upon him, which I dismiss because Parcells wanted nothing to do with him from the beginning.

I think it's safe to say that in order for Boldin to be worth the draft pick used to acquire him, as well as the money that we would be paying him, he would have to at least equal his 89 catches and 1,000 yard benchmark from last season (keeping in mind that he didn't play in 4 games last year). And I think it's also safe to say in order for Ginn to take the next step in his development (which is my concern in all of this) he would have to improve on his 56 catch 790 yard season, which would mean that he would have to get around 75 catches and 1,000 yards in order for it to be considered an improvement (an extra 5 catches and 50 yards isn't going to cut it). When you look at the type of offense that we run, the fact that the FO and coaching staff sees Fasano as a legitimate offensive weapon, how exactly can you say that Ginn wouldn't be effected? I don't see any example in Parcells history that would indicate that Boldin and Ginn would both be able to make that kind of impact in a Parcells offense (except '98 when the Jets didn't have a quality TE).

As for the Cobb example, that's a poor one IMO. Cobb is the #3 RB who has prety much reach his ceiling as a RB in the NFL, Ginn just finished his 2nd year in the NFL and it usually takes 3 years to fully evaluate what a WR can do in the NFL. Ginn's first 2 years are comparable to the first 2 years of Steve Smith's career, Smith didn't shine until his 3rd full season in the NFL, and I think we need to see if Ginn can make the same transition. Ginn has a very good sample from which to look back on and make an educated guess as to how he would perform given more balls thrown his way. It's not as if we're talking about a player that had 5 balls thrown his way all season and we're trying to project his stats, it's not nearly the wild speculation that you make it out to be.

It takes 3 years for a WR to develop, why you want to cut Ginn off at the knees is puzzling to me. The NFL has plenty of #1 WR's who took time to get their game together and who didn't shine as a true #1 until their 3rd year, Ginn is doing fine and following that timeline perfectly. Will he be a true #1? Who knows, but we owe it to ourselves to find out.

Reggie Wayne and Torry holt both played in totally different offenses, again a poor example IMO.

Chad Johnson is a lockerroom cancer, everything from fist fights with coaches, to his offseason shenanigans last year when he went infront of every camera to beg other teams to trade for him. That's a character issue and a major red flag IMO. While Boldin may not have reaches that level of jackassery, his complaining to the media and actions on and off the field suggest that he was more concerned with his own situation that he was with keeping a healthy lockerroom.

Why? The reports of his unhappiness started as soon as Fitzgerald's contract was being renegotiated and he continued right on through the season and up to the present. It's there if you choose to look.

A Parcells team likes to run between the tackles. We didn't do that last year. You can't expect Thomas to come back and just pick up where he left off. If he does, great, if not, we're in trouble. But again, he didn't do it long enough for us to really know what we have there. There is nothing wrong with bringing in another quality player to give him competition, if they both pan out then we have a pretty damn good rotation at G.

Ginn on the otherhand is right on target to have a good year next year, he's on par with other #1 wideouts at this stage in his career. It's not a stretch at all to think that he can improve upon last seasons numbers if given the opportunity. His sample size is more than enough to make an educated determination on what he may be able to accomplish next year if given the opportunity.

We have a huge difference of opinion, but I think if you look at the type of teams Parcells has had and the type of offenses that he's used, you'll see that it's unrealistic to expect Boldin to come in here and Ginn not to be impacted in his development. Maybe, maybe not, but it's a fun debate either way.