----- SI: Draft re-do: Fins take M.RYAN over J.LONG

I'll take the Pro Bowl left tackle and the cornerstone of the offensive line over Ryan.

 

I don't care.

He won one more Super Bowl than I've seen the Dolphins win in my lifetime. Which is zero. Surely you're not making the argument that Favre's INTs keep him from being a top 10 QB of all time.

 

Trent Dilfer has won one more Superbowl than you've seen the Dolphins win in your lifetime. QB's dont win superbowls.

Actually I could name 10 QB's I'd much rather have than Favre easily.

 

Hmmmm...this thread continues yet nobody has addressed my question:

 

Not really. It's a good argument, but my question was IF Ryan played as good for us as he has for Atlanta would we want Long in a redo? So you have to assume he would play as well for us as he did for Atlanta. I know some of you have arguments that maybe he wouldn't, but I could come up with as many that he could.

To be fair, of course assume that Long would have the same success with whoever took him that he has had with us this year. Then for the purposes of this thread we can fairly answer the question.

 

We can all agree that Gholston was a waste of the #6 overall pick. Which leads me to my favorite thing on youtube:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98]YouTube - NY Jets Draft Blunders[/ame]

 

It's probably because it's a rhetoric fallacy: If we had drafted Ryan and if he had indeed played the very same season here than he played in Atlanta ... what on earth would we need a left tackle for? Because Ryan would've never played that kind of season without a strong offensive line. So yes, if I happen to be blessed with a strong line, I'll happily draft the rookie of the year QB. Thing is, we didn't have that line and that's why I wouldn't go back and draft Ryan.

 

I would have gone with Ryan but its really a tough call. Franchise QB or a Franchise LT? It does not matter tho because we made the right choice drafting Long because there were way too many questions about Ryan (Alot of other Top QB's).

 

No more a rhetoric fallacy than you saying he wouldn't play well. He's a special QB. He would do well on any team surrounded by professionals. Parcells and Ireland are competent. If they don't take Long they address the line through other means. Ryan would have a serviceable O-line in Miami as he does in Atlanta.

But getting away from all that, The whole point of this thread and the SI article is that it's a draft redo. GMs and coaches have a "time machine" so to speak, and if armed with the knowledge of what transpired this season so far would they take Matt Ryan? So even if we didn't feel we had a great line to protect him, they would know they could pick up serviceable lineman in later rounds of the draft and in free agency and also more completely address it in years to come. After all, the most important position on the field would be settled.

The whole thing is silly of course, because we all know time travel isn't possible...YET. But if it were, and Parcells and Ireland knew they could get a special QB with that pick, they would do it. IMHO.

Granted, if time travel were possible they would travel into the future and see how Henne would pan out before going back, but that just opens up all sorts of paradox's that would probably result in the world imploding on itself. And with missing information on Henne, they take the QB who has already proven he's a special player in Matt Ryan.

 

Heh, it is a warm fuzzy, isn't it? But I am trying not to get too excited about it...some players don't shine till their second or third year. Mario Williams wasn't that effective his first season, after all.

 

See - I didn't say that. I know that Long has been playing outstanding in this situation. Ryan, I got no clue how he would've done here. So why would I go back and get rid of the bird in my hand for two in the bushes? The problem with your argument is that it's based on a purely speculative assumption.

 

Speculative assumption? We have seen Matt Ryan play great football for Atlanta this year. A team thought by most to be worse off than Miami prior to the start of the season. Is there some cosmic force that would prevent him from demonstrating those skills in Miami? Even if we assumed the talent pool here is worse, which it's not, then we still know Ryan posesses the talent to play the QB position at a high level. So you still take him, and fill in the players around him. You don't not take a franchise QB because he might not do as well with this season's team. You also forget that if every team gets a redo then every team would have the knowledge of Ryan's skills. So we take him first and could probably trade him for Jake Long and another first round pick, meaning we could still get Long and then some if that's what Parcells wanted. So in the event of the redo that SI is simulating, Matt Ryan is the number one pick. Even if we didn't want him. Because he's proven to be the most valuable of the 2009 draft class. And if you think Long would hold more value in the open market then you are kidding yourself.

 

Evaluating draftees after 14 weeks is an inherently speculative endeavor!

Don't matter which way you voted, you're speculating if you are involved in this debate!

 

Funny you say QBs don't win superbowls. Franchise/Cornerstone LTs don't make an Oline.

There is only one QB, and there are 5-6 blockers on an Oline. Any of them can end up leaking. I take the QB each day every single day of the week.

Don't forget we had a solid LT in VC.

 

No single player wins a superbowl regardless of position.

The QB isn't the only one on a passing play either. You can have a perfect pass and a WR can drop the ball. Anyone can make a mistake on a play.

There is a reason that LT is regarded as the most important spot on the line. It's the QB's blind side and often times the side the best pass rusher lines up on.

 

I understand no one player wins the superbowl. But some are more important than others. I can say Tom Brady is a huge reason the Patriots won 3. But he can't do it by himself.

But the question remains, who is more important, the QB? Or the LT? The QB. What is the job of the LT again? To protect the QBs blind side right? Why is that important? Because the QB is more important.

What's all all world LT going to do, protecting a Joey Harrington? Nada. Its putting the carriage before the horse.

 

So given the year long is having for us, you can't blame people for saying they would still take him correct?

Depends on what you put as more value. Me personally I put more value on a defense and an oline. Why because we have seen descent qbs go to the superbowl on the back of a good oline, and good to great defense.

 

Woah Woah Woah that is a MAJOR reach. The LT doesn't protect the QB because he is more important, he protects him because no matter how good or bad a player is he won't do anything with bad blocking.

Also what seperates the good and bad QB's is mostly composure under pressure and making good decisions. Over the years we have proven that if you give bad QB's time they will look great (David Carr, Matt Cassell, want me to go on?)

If you want to use that kind of logic though, a LT can also be a large influence on running plays. He should be more important then.

 

Would tom brady have won without that d or that o line................

A qb is a big piece yes, but the fact that you are protecting him does not mean the system can not function with an average qb IMO. Put a bad lt in front and you have a qb with little time to do anything as well as a run game that goes no where. Then what? I think the o line is the horse. Qb is the guy driving it all. And I'm going to stop with the metaphors now.........

 

I also look at it like this. Yes qb is responsible for alot, mainly though the passing game. O line is responsible for both the passing and running game. That to me gives the oline a leg up IMO.

 

We KNOW what Jake has done for this team. Anyone picking Ryan is ASSUMING what he would do for this team.

I am a facts guy and not a "best guesser" in a make believe Utopia. Jake is the pick last year on facts and needs, and any imaginary year with the same facts and needs.

Ryan is a hypothetical woulda, coulda, shoulda using bogus logic as to what the facts and needs were and are in any real situation.

 

You know in the end it doesn't really matter. If you want to look at it like that, right now we should have Tom Brady, Randy Moss, and Anquan Boldin. So many choices made over the years don't matter now, just like this one won't matter in 10 years if Jake plays like he has been and Henne is the player we think he can be.

 

Then we're assuming Parcells/Ireland and Sparano couldn't put together a decent Oline without Jake?

As I said. NYG slid a guard over and they won the super bowl.

 

Well if you want to play that game, you are assuming our wrs play as well as atlantas , the oline does the same, etc.....

 

I have Full Faith and Confidence that the triumvirate could build a solid oline with out Jake Long. He's good, no doubt. But if you can secure your Franchise QB for the next decade or longer, I just can't see passing that up.

 

I can see that argument that we get ryan, and sparano being an o line coach makes the line play above average. I just can't see saying qb is more important then lt .

 

That triumvirate had the choice and using facts and logic they make the smart pick, the correct pick, and the best pick for this franchise.

I would use your assumption about their ability to field a solid OLine without Jake, and flip it to say, they knew their BEST OL included Jake and they could find a solid QB to stick in for years to come with a line anchored with Jake as the key cornerstone of it.

 

theres a lot of assumptions in this thread.. while i did take part in this debate and therefore in no way will try to proclaim myself better than thou for pointing it out, is that this is just a rediculous debate. it's like debating where we'd be right now had mccain been elected instead of obama.. there's no way to tell what obama will do for/to this country, and we'll never know what would have happened if mccain got elected, and all there would be is baseless speculation.

point i suppose, is that we can't really argue over this, especially because even the people who wish we'd have drafted ryan, can't be all that upset with jake long. we could have ended up with any of those other top of the round guys, and we'd be worse off at the moment than we are right now. let's wait and see what we have with jake and chad henne, and maybe 5 years from now we can more accurately speculate as to what we perhaps 'should' have done.

 

I think it boils down to who thinks what position is more important. In either case I think its debatable. But of course as always I am right and all those that disagree are wrong.................................. so sayeth the spider..............

 

Only with yourself....

I guarantee Parcells, Ireland and Sparano would laugh at the notion being presented when it comes to the facts of where we were following 1-15, and what needed to be done starting with FA and the draft heading into the 2008-09 season and our future!

 

as in to what position is more important. no. Its debatable. Which is why you see some coaches start with the qb and others do not.

 

In general??? or specific to this franchise follwing the 1-15 season and the draft specifc to Jake Long or Matt Ryan???

This thread I thought was specific to Miami and a do-over for Ryan vs. Long???

 

Where are you guys coming up with all this assuming stuff? Matt Ryan is having a great year for a team that was as bad as us prior to this season.

What does he have to do to prove to a "fact guy" like you that he is a franchise QB that if given a 2nd chance any GM needing a QB would take. Surrounding cast does not matter. You take franchise QBs that prove they can play in the NFL. Good QBs make a team good. Different team circumstances are not going to make a good QB bad. I don't know where you guys are coming up with this theory.

 

in general. I'm tired of explaining these arguments we have to you

 

Why? Well, taking a QB in a different system, with different teammates, facing different opponents, and translating that to this Miami Dolphin franchise with out team members and our system....ahhhhhh...yeah....that called nothing but assumptions. Zero FACTS in taking his stats and placing them in this team and claiming anything positive or negative.

Thats why!

P.S. you have any interest in meeting up finally and sharing a brew to watch Phins vs. SF Sunday?

 

so not only are you making your own assumptions with regard to your position of debate, you are making up what you feel the thread subject is or was

You hurt my brain more than my daughters do!!!!

 

You didn't say anything to dispute my statement. My statement is that a good QB will play well on any professional football team. Of course, there will be varying degrees of success based on the surrounding talent, but franchise QBs will play good football on any team. Drew Brees would play well on the Lions. They still might lose because they have no defense. He'll also take a few more sacks because of a bad O-line. But he'll still make plays. And then Detroit would build around him. So if a GM on another team identifies a QB as being a franchise QB, the fact that his team is different than the other team doesn't matter. There is a QB that can play football and he wants him on his team.

Your statement is pretty ridiculous if you get right down to it. Using your logic, trades would never happen. "Oh we can't trade for Drew Brees. He might not play as well with different players." I bet the Saints are glad they didn't worry about whether or not Drew Brees could have the same success on a bad team.