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[MERGED] Trading Thomas, Taylor will best serve Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SMOKE, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. Kudda

    Kudda Banned Troll

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    Better question, why would anyone assume winning isn't important when the objective is to get younger and better, each year.? We don't have to sacrifice any season(s) in order to rebuild. We've already got a strong foundation in place on offense, now we just need weapons. The draft will cater to a depleted defense, and we want to have as many picks as possible to build that new defense.
     
  2. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    :unsure: Isn't the point, if you already have a premium player at a position, and will not even get close to getting back what he is worth, it is insane to get rid of a player just because they are getting up in age. Now hopfully you get the point. :up:
     
  3. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    If he thinks this team is on the right track, and buys into what they want to do, then yes, and history has told us he has done this many times before.

    :001_rolleyes: You don't get it.

    1st off at best we can expect Gholston as a serious starter after the 3rd or 4th game, very very few Rookies start before that, 2nd the more talent you have the more you can move players around, JT, Gholston can play LB in a 3-4, Linemen in a 4-3, Porter can play linemen & linebacker in a 3-4, and 4-3, Crowder can Play inside and outside LB. All of them would still get considerable playing time, and would be fresher.

    If Gholston shows to be the real deal, you can decide the following year what you want to do, but in the mean time Gholston learns from one of the best.

    Taylor was cranky because he was used the wrong way, was he cranky when he restructured all those times before..NO Taylor is a team player, and he want to be here, but will not if he is used wrong.

    Taylor would lose very little playing time, and that is only if Gholston hits his mark very early, which rarely happens.


    It can happen, but it is way more rare, a QB, RB, WR do not know where they will get hit from, and the worst hits are the blindsides hits, Defensive player rarely have to worry abouut that. Zach is very aggressive, but to get that type of hit, he would hsvr to lead with his head or get blinsided, that happens very rarely. Again, up to him and the medical people, you or I have no idea one way or the other how serious this is.

    Oh now you are just grasping at straws, has that happened, yes, but it does not happen to every case (very few cases in fact). Each case is not the same, you act as if we are just as knowledgeable as the people in the medical field, we are not...Unless you are a Doctor, and have info in Zach, you (Like me) have no idea how serious Zach's problem is.

    Yea, Whatever :001_rolleyes: :lol:
     
  4. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I think Zach would be a great player coach. He could start by teaching players like Crowder to study as hard as he does. Then he can transition to the full time coaching realm.
     
  5. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :rolleyes:

    If the team is a quality one, yes. The Dolphins are not a quality team, they a REBUILDING team and therefore aging vets that are on the decline and still have some value are expendable. Jason Taylor has 3 maybe 4 years left in the NFL, by the time the Phins are a playoff team he will either be retired or a shell of his former self.

    You don't seem to understand that, you have been throwing random names of older players around that are playing on good teams and still playing at a decent to pretty good level. Completely different situation. If Miami was a 9-7 team, you would have a point. After a 1-15 season and after looking at the serious lack of talent on this team (not to mention the overhaul needed to switch to the 3/4), your point is silly.
     
  6. Duss

    Duss Season Ticket Holder

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    If I was the phins I would call the redskins, they have a dire need for a JT type player on their defensive line
     
  7. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :lol: Good luck with that one. JT has said that he doesn't want to be a part of a rebuilding team, that's what we are. Still think he restructures? lol

    Your opinion and nothing more, some people feel he has tremendous upside and can be a Merrimen type player.

    Second, we are not going to be playing the 4/3, Parcells is bringing his staff here and installing their style of defense. Ireland already talked about how they want to bring in prototypical players to play in that system, so the idea of either JT, Gholston or Porter playing end in a 3/4 and playing it effectively is silly at best. None of them are even close to a prototypical 3/4 end.

    And no matter how you cut it, you would have 3 players playing 2 positions. If Gholston (or whatever player is brought in) shows that they deserve the playing time more than JT, then what? And to be quite honest, Gholston would be better off playing Porter's spot and Joey would be better suited to switch to weakside (JT's spot). So you would have a bit of problem finding time for both Porter and JT, no? Which one would run their mouth first? Getting rid of Joey isn't an option because of his contract, so forget dumping him, and he would be a very expensive and unhappy backup, so that out of the question as well.

    I think I'm coming to the conclusion that you are one of the fans that is refusing to grasp the idea of what rebuilding is really all about. Before Parcells was hired everybody here was saying how we were going to suck and things like "lets blow this team up and start over". now that Tuna is on board everybody is filled with a renewed sense playoffs and being legit again. Anything is possible, but don't bet your house on it.

    Just because Parcells is here that doesn't mean that we are going to sign a million FA's and be a 10-6 team next year. If you listen to what the FO is saying you would here them say that they want to bring in their type of players and do things their way. That isn't going to happen in one offseason.

    lol

    Jason Taylor is a team player as long as the team revolves around him, as one of our fellow FH members pointed out earlier, so expect him to be quite the unhappy camper on a rebuilding team.

    Right :rolleyes:

    A hit is a hit and impact is impact, it doesn't matter if you see it coming or not. True alot of injuries happen when a player doesn't see it coming, but that doesn't mean that is the only time a concussion is suffered. And Zach is a short guy, when he goes to make a hard tackle his head is at shoulder level in relation to the other players, he has even been called a dirty player by some because they feel he is leading with his helmet on purpose, when in reality he is just short.


    :lol:

    So giving you a fact on concussions is grasping at straws? lol

    The point I was making is that you don't necessarily need to be hit in the head to suffer another concussion, that you can suffer another by doing simple everyday things. Playing football and getting your head jostled around does not fall into the category of simple everyday activities. Granted getting another from sneezing may not happen to everyone, but it all depends on the severity and the individual. Zach has a history of concussions and should be treated accordingly.

    Also I have suffered 2 concussions in my life and have been told of the risks and informed of the chances of having another and how they might occur. My concussions were not as severe as Zach's, I didn't miss any time at work and I didn't suffer any effects weeks later like he did, so it would lead one to presume that he might just be a little more susceptible to having a another and more severe concussion based on his history and job description, no?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  8. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    We are not in as big a REBUILDING mode as you may think, If Saban comes back, and we don't get hit with as bad injury wise as we were hit, this is a much better team, not opinion, but fact, we also have good backups on the D-line, adequate LBers and Secondary. A little luck goes the way of this team and they could be challenging.....why do you think so many people were so high on Miami last year? Take away your best players on D, and even a little luck will not be enough.



    I throw names as proof, instead of just giving opinions, and not all those were winning teams with those players, at points most had a bad season or 2.

    Miami was 1-15 because of injuries to the QB and RB positions, and were decimated in the secondary, LBer positions.

    Question: How good do you think the Patriots are this year if they lose Brady, Maroney, one of their best LBers, and 4 of their Corners for most of the season?

    No, I am not saying they even come close to doing as bad as us, but they miss the playoffs (might be an opinion, but admit it, a very good one:yes:). You just don't seem to grasp this, there were good reasons why Miami were that bad this year.

    :lol: You and I are going back and forth on this, and we will see how it plays out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Do you understand what it takes to not only turn a 1-15 team into a winner, but also turn a team from one defensive system to another? Again, even under the best possible circumstances, getting the prototypical 3/4 players that the FO is looking for will take 2 offseasons.

    Parcells isn't going to judge this team based on woulda, coulda, shoulda's, he couldn't care less how many games we lost by 3 points, he's going to judge this team based on results. This team has alot of dead weight, expect that dead weight to be shed this offseason and young hungry players to be brought in.

    Woulda, coulda, shoulda :rolleyes:

    I could have won the lottery had I gotten more than 1 number right, does that fill me with hope for next week? Nope.

    Our DL may have good backups, but it's the starters that are the problem, they can't stop the damn run. Our LB core is average, JT is unispired, Porter is out of position, Zach is dizzy on the sidelines and Crowder is content with waiting for the plays to come to him instead of making plays. Our secondary flat out sucks, sure injuries hit us hard, but our secondary flat out sucks. The only guy that played well for us this year was Will Allen who doesn't seem to be a fan favorite here because he doesn't get INT's, but he's a hell of a player IMO. I'll even give props to Jason Allen for turning his season around in the second half, I hope he can continue that next year.

    So as you can see (maybe not) is that our defense has a LONG way to go before they can be considered good. Disappointing really, they were the 4th ranked D in the league last year and I was hoping they would be as good or better this year.

    Proof of what exactly? That Miami isn't a rebuilding team and JT needs to stay and help us to the playoffs? You threw names out there of players that are playing well near the end of their careers, I never said that JT wouldn't play well next year, but it's time to take advantage of the value that he still has and build towards the future.

    All of the expensive art, furniture and cargo, all of the rich and well to do passengers and all of that thick steel didn't stop the Titanic from sinking, did it?.....

    .....Having a vet of JT's caliber isn't going to make this team a contender and getting rid of him isn't going to hurt our chances for the playoffs next year because we don't have a chance. Miami is a 2-5 win team.

    Trent Green wasn't taking us to the playoffs, he led the league in INT's and rookie mistakes before he went down.

    Ronnie's injury was unfortunate, but his presence wouldn't have made us a playoff team either unless he was moonlighting as a 320 pound NT that could stop the run.

    And I already pointed out the LB and Secondary above.

    NE is too good to miss the playoffs without Brady, Maroney and a LB. I don't think that they would have the type of season that they had this year, but they would be more than good enough to hold off the rest of the AFCE without a doubt in my mind.

    But again, you are comparing a very good team to the 1-15 Phins. Without the injuries, this Miami team was a 3-5 win team at best. See the difference? The reason that Miami was so bad this year boils down to one thing and one thing only, lack of talent. If a team suffers injuries and they don't have the players to step up and fill the void, that's called a lack of depth. Miami didn't have players that could fill the voids, Miami didn't have the players to begin with, Randy let guys like Kevin Carter go without filling those spots because he was relying on young guys to step up, they didn't. Our crappy ST lost 2 or 3 good players and those players were never replaced. Our QB's were all over the place this year, Green was horrible, Lemon was equally horrible and Beck....was horrible too. Our old guys really showed it this year and the young guys showed their inexperience, we sucked plain and simple. This team needs help everywhere, to think that this team is one or two FA's and a good draft away from the playoffs is silly.
     
  10. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    I do actually know, but do you actually know what type of talent this team really has?


    So that's why Bill has already gone on record saying he wants to keep JT, Right.:lol:



    Well, I actually try to do my homework, and not allow a record to tell me how good that team is, I guess for some people the easy way of determing how good a team is, is the best way, I rather have facts and truth, not assumptions. I agree this defense is old in a FEW positions, but get a Good DT, and this is a better defense.

    I agree we do also need 1 more LBer (Who can play the run), but I also have a feeling losing Zach and Jason will not exactly fix this defense, but hey, that just me.


    I gave you examples of players that were around Zach and Jason's age, who because of them the team won the big game, meaning take them off the team, and that team goes no where. When you have special players who are still playing like the best at their positions, it is insane to get rid of them unless you can get back what thier talent says they are worth, anyone offer us a #1 draft pick for either, it would kill me, but at least we are getting their worth.

    Wow, so you can predict how good a team will be, cool. You must have been the one telling everyone how good the Rams were going to be the 1st year they were good, or the Patriots were going to be great after getting crushed by the Bills, and then losing Bledsoe, the Steelers after Drafting a large QB that few thought was going to workout the 1st two years or all those other teams that looked bad a year or two before, but made remarkable turnarounds. Can you tell me tha Numbers for the Lottary? :up:


    It was a mistake, I agree.

    Agreed

    Ok, here is the thing, give us a QB that can get the job done, a DT that can (At the very least) slow down the run, and a HC that know what he is doing, this team wins at the very least 8 games, and at best....well you know, Wait you might not, I am not saying Superbowl, but this team at best could have reached the playoffs if we were not hit as bad injury wise and better people at those 3 positions.


    You actually think the Pats get to the Playoffs without thier starting QB, RB, Best LBer, and Best Corner?....really? :escape:
    OK, guess someone has a very high opinion of the Pats, and very low one of the Dolphins, not much that can be said after that.
     
  11. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I agree with you on everything except the deserving the chance to play for a playoff team.
    Look you get into the nfl by hard work, study, talent. That doesn't come with gaurentee to go to the post season. When JT first became a free agent after his fourth year he had a chance to leave test the market. He probably should have and could have picked from quite a few teams to go join. He decided to stay. that was his decision. No one deserves anything. If he wanted to be on a playoff team he should have left years ago. I would have. I think if we can get decent compensation let him go. Starving pigmeys in africa deserve a ham sandwich. All laywers deserve prison time. Nfl players deserve nothing. You only get what your willing to ask for, fight for or earn.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  12. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Yay, insults and very little substance. :rolleyes:

    Yup, 1-15.

    We have some really good players at the end of their career and some promising young talent that has yet to step up and replace those older players. We're a mess. Again, you don't go 1-15 by accident. Without all of the injuries, Miami would have been no better than a 3-5 win team IMO.

    And Bill went on record as saying he didn't want troubled players that will cause a distraction, but then he went right out and renewed one of the biggest dip****s of them all in Ricky Williams. He also said that he wasn't going to come into Miami with his mind made up, yet he did exactly what everyone knew he would and cleaned house to bring in his own people without even talking to Randy.

    So Bill says things, that's about it.

    Riiight, so one player will cure all that ails the Phins. :rolleyes:

    There is a reason that you go 1-15, you are a bad team in need of talent, playmakers and depth.

    And this quote right here shows me that you don't understand what rebuilding is all about. When you rebuild, you don't try to patch the holes that pop up, you tear down and start over. Losing JT and Zach will hurt us for a year, but it will benefit us in the long run. We take advantage of their value and build towards the future.

    Again, you are making the mistake of thinking that this team is one or two players away from being a contender. Not many people are going to jump on your bandwagon, hope you bring a book!

    :lol:

    If anyone offered us a 1st rounder for Zach or JT, I would jump at the offer before they regained their sanity. lol

    No way in hell anyone would give up a major asset like a 1st for a guy that is in the final years of his career. We couldn't even get a 1st if we packaged them together, it just isn't happening. Zach has no trade value due to injuries, noone is going to give up anything for a guy that is one hit away from being finished. We are the only team DUMB enough to make that type of trade (See Trent Green). We would be lucky to get a 2nd for JT, the only way tht I see that happening is if a team is desperate enough to get a big name for one last playoff push. We suckered the Chargers out of a 2nd for Chambers, not because he was good, but because they were desperate to save their season. You won't be making that type of trade in the offseason.

    More nonsense, bring something to the table instead of wiseass remarks.

    We have one, but he needs an upgrade on the OL and receivers/TE that can get open and hold onto the ball. So we'll add at least 3 players to the list.

    One player will not fix the defense, regardless of position. So we'll add another player to the DL, 2 LBers, a shutdown CB and a S to the list. That's just the beginning, mind you.

    First of all, Cam wasn't the savior that everyone made him out to be last year. Yes he made some very big mistakes, but no coach would have taken this team to the playoffs last year. I personally think that if Miami continued to draft well and Cam hired an OC to take the added pressure of himself that he might have been a pretty decent HC. Then again after reading of the mutiny where players decided to run their mouths and throw the coach under the bus (or plane), maybe he didn't reach his players. Or more likely, those players (Zach, JT and Porter) were wrong for turning on their coach.

    More nonsense

    They've won the SB with less talent, so yeah.

    You know what, I try very hard not to "mod" the people that I have a conversation with because they might say that I'm being unfair or abusing my power. I like to have an honest and open debate and let people vent if they want, I know I do. But when a post is filled with nothing but BS and insults, it makes it very hard not to hand out a warning. Consider that from now on when you have a conversation with your fellow FinHeaven members.
     
  13. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    :unsure: Wow, insults? If anything you have been throwing some insults my way (off and on), I have agreed with you on some points, and been kidding around on a few others, but it is pretty obvious that you are taking this personal, so lets just agree to disagree. Sorry if anything offended you.
     

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