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[MERGED] Trading Thomas, Taylor will best serve Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SMOKE, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Why keep 2 players that won't be around when the Phins are good again?

    Personally I think that Zach should sit down and think long and hard about what life after football would be like if he suffers another head injury. With the physical nature of the NFL and Zach's 110% all out style of play, I think another head injury is very likely.

    If we learned nothing else from the whole Trent Green saga it's that you don't take head injuries lightly.

    JT on the otherhand has trade value that will help us acquire picks for the future. We aren't going to be a playoff team next year anyway, trading JT won't break our season.
     
  2. phinfan0715

    phinfan0715 New Member

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    If we keep Zach for 1 or 2 more years that would be great, but it's a new day. Zach is still a beast, but we can upgrade that position. we need to get rid of Porter, but Mueller alreay gave that bomb all that money.
     
  3. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    You are probably right about ZT not being there next year, but I think it will be Zach's decision due to his injuries that will decide his fate. When healthy I believe Parcells feels Zach can contribute at a high level. I say keep him for what he can produce on the field and to groom his replacement.

    Regarding when we will contend for a ring, Parcells has a history of rebuilding teams to playoff caliber in just a few short years 2-3 or 3-4. Maybe within the window of opportunity for JT, Zach probably not. We will have to wait and see.
     
  4. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Not really, trading down in the draft is easy to talk about but tough to do. The only other players on our team with trade value are young players that we should be keeping for the future (Ronnie, Satele, Ginn, etc).

    Also, JT played at a less than JT-like level for most of the year. I didn't see the leadership and intensity that people associate with him. I saw a guy that was making mental mistakes early in the season and a guy that looked defeated at the end of the season. Sure he racked up the sacks, but he wasn't the same JT.

    Zach should think about retiring IMO

    You can't have it both ways, keeping them isn't a rebuild, it's a retooling on the fly IMO. That approach to fixing a team rarely works, especially when the team just as bad as we are. If we keep Zach and Jason AND draft their replacements this year, you ignore other parts of the D that need fixing and the young players will be sitting until Zach and JT retire.

    Now if you trade JT and are able to pick up and extra pick or two, you can draft his replacement and put him on the field immediately. Again, losing JT isn't going to break our season next year, this is a bad team that needs a couple of years to get better.
     
  5. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    I don't think the 2007 season is indicative of what JT can do on the field for 2-3 more years. Remember he wasn't utilized by Cam very well IMO.

    I agree with you about ZT. He should really think through the head injury potential.

    As far as not having it both ways, I don't hink we are pressed to find replacements for JT in this years draft. We can do that next year, or the year after, or via trade.

    Keep JT as long as you can.
     
  6. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I am willing to give ZT the benefit of the doubt (Bruschi is an example) only he knows how serious the issue is. Remember, Cam put him on IR without his knowledge. Perhaps he is glad since it gave him time to rest for the remaining games and this all of off season, perhaps he could have played a few games at the end. Only he knows.

    But as far as JT and ZT go, I am not of the mindset you trade off parts cause you want them to win a SB somewhere else. If you trade them off, you do it to maximize the return for the good of the remaining players and franchise (i.e. Welker, and Chambers). I would trade them to the perverbial Siberia just as easy as to the so-called Promised Land as long as I am getting the best value for my team in return, no other reason to make a trade.

    Personally, I think JT and ZT can still win a SB in Miami. I dont think our talent is so horrible compared to every other NFL franchise that we couldnt turn this around in one FA or one draft year. Anything is realistic and possible if the chips fall and stars align. Season after season this has proven out for many "down" franchises. I think what we have lacked for a long time is consistency in our execution - certainly a consistent path and direction to move as a franschise.
     
  7. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    While I agree that JT and the defense were not properly utilized during the season, why keep a guy that will only be around for another 2 or 3 years ? Don't get me wrong, I'm a JT fan, but his presence alone isn't going to make this team better. Draft picks are more valuable to this team than an aging vet at the end of his career. JMO though

    Trading for impact players is as tough as trading down in the draft or acquiring a franchise QB by trading your 2nd rounder every year. The Phins have an opportunity to draft two players in Vernon Gholston and Chris Long that could fill the void left by JT, but it doesn't make much sense to draft them if they are going to sit or have limited playing time for 2 or 3 years, you know?
     
  8. Dolphins77

    Dolphins77 New Member

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    Just look at the Green Bay Packers for how quickly a season can turn around. It's possible. And I'd like nothing more than JT and Zach to stick around for some success, they deserve it. I just hope Zach does what's best for his long-term health, not what's best for his football heart.
     
  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I don't know bud, head injuries are nothing to take lightly. With Zach style of play, he' a prime candidate to suffer another one.

    Yupper

    You don't go 1-15 by accident. Yes injuries played a role in that record, but we just didn't have the depth or talent to make up for those injuries. Anything can happen, but I don't see a dramatic turn around next year.
     
  10. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    We didn't trade no one to New England. New England gave Welker a very ridiculous contract offer and afer 7 days, we didn't match it. Which got us a 2nd rounder [which got us Satele, our franchise center] and a 7th.
     
  11. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    1-15 or 16-0 so many things work against you, or for you, its not all strictly talent, much of it is luck of the way the ball bounces, etc.

    You arent as bad as 1-15 states anymore than you can ever expect to be 16-0 again.

    Next year I would be more shocked to repeat at 1-15, then I would be in winning the SB. Statistically speaking it would be more likely to win the SB.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
  12. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Then don't draft them (replaements) this year. Wait till next year or the year after that.

    As a former Sales Manager I enherited a team of salesmen. Some good, some not good, some at the end of their carreers but could still make their quotas. Guess which one carried more value to me as a Manager? The vets! They could get it done and I could count on their numbers, while I worked on other areas that needed fixing now.

    It is the same with JT and the Fins. We are solid at DE for the next 2-3 years. Let's use our resources on something else like the Dline, Oline, QB, WR, CB etc....

    Keep JT!
     
  13. phinfan0715

    phinfan0715 New Member

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    The business of selling stuff does not relate to Football.
     
  14. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Sure it does. Check out my new signature!
     
  15. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    And if JT continues to play at a less than JT-like level or if Zach suffers another concussion, what do we do then? And if you wait too long to draft those players, you might not get another chance to draft players of Gholston's or Long's potential.

    IMO sentiment needs to be put aside and the FO needs to think about the franchise.

    But was your company at the bottom of the barrel or in the midst of rebuilding from the ground up? I agree that vets can add alot, but there is a point where you need to cut ties for the betterment of the group. JMO though

    Sorry bud, but I disagree completely.

    The defense is a mess and needs just about everything, we need more picks. Even then it is still going to be a 2 or 3 year process.
     
  16. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Hopefully on it's way out of town. ;)
     
  17. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    bp said a lot of things in his interview, like NO pre-conceived ideas on any aspect of the team. And look how far that went.
     
  18. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Thank you....Finally

    This is not a playoff team on paper right now, but get us back a healthy team that includes a realiable QB (Does not have to be great), and this is a competitive team, get us a better game day coach then we had, this becomes a team on the verge of reaching the playoffs, get us one more pass rusher and a DT that can at least slow down the run, and this is a Playoffs team.
     
  19. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    FYI - Buffalo had more injuries than we did and they won 6 more games than we did
     
  20. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Sounds like a winner to me Dolphan7. IMO, new head coach or whatever, these two deserve respect and consideration for the team players that they are.
     
  21. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Keep JT. Zach is a different story, whether he retires, gets cut, traded whatever I think we need to move "now" to get his replacement on the roster. But keep JT, and that isn't sentiment from me although I am sure it is from other fans. For me it is a sound business decision.
     
  22. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    No wonder I can't find it!:confused1:
     
  23. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    This is a true fact of which you speak. We need to also remember how many times both Zach and JT revised their contracts to help the team with cap space to get more players.
     
  24. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    :lol:

    I'm sure that there are plenty of people here that agree with you, I'm not one of them though. I've seen some of my favorite teams hold onto the aging vets and try to retool instead of rebuild, and it rarely works.
     
  25. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    The problem is that we have holes a plenty and only limited resources. Unfortunately, we don't have ten first day picks to adress the needs that plague this team. If there are more ressources to be gotten by trading away a player that won't be with the team when (or should I say if?) it eventually makes the turnaround, reason dictates that one should at the very least consider it. If Taylor gets you another 2nd round pick and you translate said pick into a stud lineman or a great possession WR or a productive DE or a shutdown corner, then by all means, make that trade. You might suffer from it short term (with the short term being a period where you'll suffer anyhow and the only difference it's going to make is between bad and worse), but in the long run, your investment will benefit the team more.

    It's the same with the Wes Welker trade. We suffered from it this year (and boy did we suffer) and we'll probably suffer from it for another two years, but if Satele turns out to be the player he's promising to be, three years of suffering will be more than worth the ten years of joy of having one of the best centers in the league.

    Successful teams look ahead and replace their skill players before they are forced to do it by either the salary cap or them retiring. That way, they can have the replacements learn the position without a whole lot of pressure and get something in return for their skill players. Unfortunately, loyalty isn't a valuable good in the modern day, salary cap-driven NFL.
     
  26. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    How do we know how good they will be when we are good again?

    1. Both these guys are still playing at all-pro level.

    2. In today NFL all it takes is a little talent, and a good enough system to be good again.

    3. We were in most games this years, and most of these games were without any safety help, no premier RB to get chunks of yards for us, a QB that had any real expierience, or a HC that knew what he was doing on game day.

    All those things (At least most) I expect to be fixed. Do not forget, 2 years ago this team looks so good at the end, that in the off-season some had us in the Superbowl, and most had us in the playoffs.....if not for the mistake at QB, and a HC that gave us, this team would have been in the playoffs in 06, or do bad team normally beat a Bear team that went to the superbowl, or shutout a Pats team that many expected to represent the AFC?

    That is the one thing that I agree should stop him from playing any more football, his health is way more important then a game. On the other hand if he has gotten checked out, and has been told he could play, and he decides he is going to play no matter what, his abilty is not going to be the cause for us to get rid of him, This is a better team with Zach, then without him.

    Like I said Health is different then Ability, the person that started this post was talking about getting rid of Zach, because he could not help this team, if he is not medically checked out to play, then trading him is not going to happen.

    JT is a game changer, once we get rid of him, who do we then have? Getting rid of special players for draft picks is what continually hurts teams like the Lions and Cardinals.
     
  27. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    How do you upgrade a position where when Zach plays injury free (More times then not) he leads the League (or among the leaders) in tackles.....Unless we get lucky, and find another Zach.
     
  28. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    A simple evaluation of chance: This team is at least two years removed from being a contender again (and that's positive thinking) and there are not a whole lot of 36 year old MLBs or 35 year old DEs playing on a pro bowl level in this league. I can basically think of only a handful of players that old who still start and about all of their teams are actively looking for a replacement.



    Care to name some examples? I'm at a loss ...
     
  29. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    Exactly, we want to believe we know, but we have no idea how many or how severe Zach's concussions are. Bruschi is a great example, you do not know whan is inside a person or in what shape he really is.
     
  30. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Look at the holes we have to fill that will be created by players leaving via FA, players that BP and Ireland decide don't fit their system and the lack of depth and talent that we had last year, and one could assume that it will definitely be an uphill struggle.

    Using the Phins performance from 2 years ago (or even last year for that matter) isn't a good barometer to know how they will perform next year. But like I said, take a look at the personel and what the FO is trying to do and it looks like it may be a couple of years before Parcells and ireland are able to find the players that they want and we see results.

    Remember that Trent Green had a clean bill of health too.

    But if he is cleared to play and he reinjures himself, then what? I think it's time for him to move on and for the Phins to do the same. Again, I'm a Zach fan, but I'm a Dolphins fan 1st.

    Gholston or Long?

    I think the Cards and Lions were more effected by poor drafts and neglecting areas in desperate need of an upgrade.
     
  31. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    If it's not broken, why try to fix it? :confused2:
     
  32. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    1-15 = Broken
     
  33. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I don't know about you, but I tend to replace the brakes on my car before they are completely worn down. Usually, that helps in keeping the whole car in, well, whole ;)
     
  34. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Well look at New England - They have Jr Seau, Mike Vrable and Teddy Bruschi on their defense and they play at a high level and they are at the end of their respective careers and they are winning ......so successful teams don't necessarily do what you are suggesting.

    All I am saying is keep JT and shore up the holes in the D through the draft, both this year and next year. I think we get a little excited and think we can get everything we need in one draft. Keep in mind the long road ahead - it will take 2-3 years of good drafts, something this team has not had since Shula, before we can address all the needs we have.
     
  35. Dolphan7

    Dolphan7 Member

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    Like New England? I'll take it!
     
  36. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    I'd trade Taylor for a second ina heartbeat.
     
  37. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Let me put it this way: I'm dead certain the Patriots will draft replacements of at least two of those guys this year. And they'll do it with high picks.



    I agree about the long road ahead, but I think it would be a severe mistake to postpone the drafting of a DE/OLB until after Jason is done. For one, you might just not be in a position to draft an adequate replacement when this is the case. Second, there's nothing like a guarantee when it comes to drafting - and there's nothing worse then having all pieces together (finally) and then stalling because you neglected a skill position and can't find a guy to play it. And last but not least: The more picks you have, the quicker you'll be at the end of said road. The journey isn't going to be pleasant anyway - with JT or without.
     
  38. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    NE has sooo much talent and depth that you can't even compare the two situations. Miami is like my NY Knicks, really bad and in need of a serious "do over". There may be a few stars or good players, but you're not going to win until you build the team in a proper manner. Holding onto aging players that won't be around when the team is good again is foolish IMO.

    BINGO, we have a winner

    This draft has some really good offensive/defensive players that will be there in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. I'd take it.
     
  39. tay0365

    tay0365 New Member

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    True, but to this points we do not know what Parcels and Ireland consider their type of player, what we do know is that BP likes JT, and even though Zach is not as big as a Parcels player should be, he does hold the trates Parcells wants in a player, loyal, plays with heart, and never stop playing 100%


    Niether is age or injury a good barometer.


    Bruschi was said to be crazy to be coming back, not anymore.

    That should still be his decision, not the FO or ours.


    Would love to have either.


    There are many reason, getting rid a good players to get more drafts picks is 1 of them.
     
  40. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Don't forget the possibility to bundle two of those theoretical three 2nd round picks and go up into the first round again. That's a draft where you'll find great talent between 15 and 25.
     

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